Women's Team in Turmoil?

[Vic]

"This was indeed an unfortunate sequence of events but I wonder what US Soccer would have done if three of their senior US women players had defaulted on two international games then refused to participate in the compulsory residentcy program?"

How conveniently you've forgot the bit about getting their funding yanked before the international games. And the bit about being on the plane on the way to residency and being told to get off. I appreciate your question, but you don't have to bend the facts to slant the response (and BTW, you would have been better served using China instead of the USA, and ending the comparative with the players being shot, or Iraq and a beheading for not wearing their burkas).

Not only in the Summer warmups did all three start and play every game, but in the last world cup as well. They have nothing to prove to this country. They've been there and done it for a long time, and done it for heart and pride, and not money. But they're also not fools in the money department either. They all signed lucrative WUSA contracts. And I think Karina Leblanc is the only other player in the WNT pool to ever sign for anything near that. And I think that's why they didn't roll over, because they've been around the block, and they know dollars and sense. And I really think this whole thing is about them getting fed up with getting ordered around and being treated like they were owned, by people making a lot of money off the same system that was starving them. And like Ted Lindsay, they're way ahead of their time.

Like I said:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113956

The good thing about women's soccer in Canada, is that we have a hundred years of hockey to learn from and not make the same mistakes.

[fan]

The biggest loser here again is the Canadian soccer fan.The CSA blow our chance to celebrate the good fortune and talents of these women. Instead of celebrating we get to watch this embarassing fiasco unfold.

The sport is dragged in to this mire and the fans take another one in the gut.

These women will do fine as Vic says but they deserve quick and just resolvement.

The CSA doesnt have the abilty to handle this or any other involvement in Canadian soccer the sport has outgrown their abilities along time ago.

These women have already proven their competence skill and character too bad the CSA would not even try to mimic their excellence.

The contrast grows the exposure of the CSA impotence as every day passes.

[Richard]

As usual, for the eternal CSA haters it's all the CSA's fault with not one iota of the responsibility resting with the players concerned. Given a chance you'd blame the CSA for world poverty too. It's that kind of mindlessness that drags the sport into the mire.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

There are two players in Canada who deserve honorary recognition, maybe a match dedicated to their efforts for our national program: Forrest and Hooper. Sure, there are others who you can think of, but these two have been key over the last 15 years.

[fan]

I agree Jeffrey I think forrest was a standout too and I know Hooper has beenthe best Canadian and certainly as good as any woman Ive seen play. It would be such a triumph for Canadian soccer to see our best celebrated. I was thinking Charmaine would be the first of many honoured by Canadian soccer fans in a few years time, lets hope intelligence and honesty prevails.

[Richard]

I'm sure Hooper will in due course be considered for the soccer HoF, she has undoubtedly contributed much to the women's game.

[john tv]

Charmaine has been the greatest icon in Canadian Women Soccer over the years.Her record speaks for herself!

[Vic]

Thanks john_tv. I'd written something a lot longer, but you nailed it in two sentences.

p.s. http://www.thesoccerhalloffame.ca

"A PLAYER must have: Been retired from playing for at least 5 years." That means in 2008, we'll see a first for the HOF - two women inducted in the same year - Gerry Donnelly and Sylvana Burtini. And to everyone who's volunteered in girls development for the past 30 years, here's to you - you changed the world.

[CAFAN]

The whole thing was really unfortunate. The way I see it Pellerud and the players were all trying to do what they felt was right and they've all given a great deal to the game and to Canada. It's too bad that things went as far as they did, because at some point there is no turning back and no way to fix what's been broken.

Of course, this type of thing is hardly new to anyone who's been watching women's soccer over the past few years.

A similar situation (not identical, but similar) took place between Brandy Chastain and USA coach Greg Ryan. After years of service to the USWNT (including kicking the winning p.k. in the 1999 World Cup), Chastain left on very bad terms and it was all captured in the media - who by the way are always more than happy to inflame any contoversy if it sells more papers. In that one, Chastain and Ryan were both heavily villified by opposing sides on the USA message boards.

There were also some nasty words traded in public between Tiffany Milbrett and US coach April Henrichs - something about Millie feeling that Heinrichs was not giving her the room to be creative and as a result she would not be returning to the USWNT as long as Heinrichs was coach. Interetingly enough, Millie never did make it back to the team, even after Heinrichs left.

And around the time of the last Olympics there was another serious spat between the USA '91'ers and Heinrichs. The USWNT won the Oly's in spite of all the animosity. Most of the 91'ers retired and Heinrichs, who finally won a major tournament, was replaced by coach Ryan who was thought to be better suited to rebuilding the team.

The soap opera will continue... Canada is a much better team than they were in the last WWC, but the game has become a lot tighter - how many draws were there in the recent tournament in China? Luck will play even a bigger role in 2007 - Canada could get a medal or get knocked out in the prelims. No matter which way things go for Canada, there will be more than enough 20/20 hindsight "I told you so's" to fill these message boards.

[Vic]

CAFAN - thumbs up

[fan]

No one is claiming this is unique or an original situation however the circumstances are clearly different from any other you mentioned.

I would call it a soap opera if it were on TV and involved fictional characters. However this deals with real people and real people were hurt and will be affected detrimentally.

If the situation was just unfortunate, and people got involved in a technical scenario where events and statements were misunderstood then I don't think many people would have a problem or be as passionate as they are about this topic.However from what has been reported by the women it appears that people did grievous things intentionally.

For all people concerned even the people who are accused this situation needs to be clarified. So that if any of the accusations are incorrect or false than these people can be exonerated of any wrongdoing.

The longer the CSA allows this to linger without resolve the longer and the more the accusations will leave a sense of conviction in the minds of Canadian soccer fans.

I hope the people involved and the Canadian soccer Association will choose to speak up and defend themselves. However, the longer this is delayed, the more I don't believe this will occur. And of course unfortunately, these women will have no choice but to pursue the matter in court.

Whenever such a promising situation is manipulated into such a fiasco the majority of the Canadian soccer fans are going to be very upset and rightly so.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

As usual, for the eternal CSA haters it's all the CSA's fault with not one iota of the responsibility resting with the players concerned. Given a chance you'd blame the CSA for world poverty too. It's that kind of mindlessness that drags the sport into the mire.

The "fault" of the CSA is in not dealing with this matter expediently when it arose. Both Pellerud and the Payers involved are part of the domain of the CSA and they have an obligation to investigate and resolve whatever went on. It may include telling the players to pound sand if they are off base, or it may included censuring Pllerud in some manner if he is in the wrong. That is their obligation and it seems - although we are not privy to whatever steps they may have taken - that they have not fulfilled this obligation. I say this Richard, despite my caveat, in that they have not compelled the parties in this dispute to the internal mechanisms referred to.

Disputes within organizations are common place. Canada can ill afford to lose 3 player of this caliber, particularly Nonen, on what may have been either a misunderstanding or</u> inappropriate action by Coach Pellerud. I reject the notion that the players are acting out of some sort of sinister or malicious motivation as there is no reasonable evidence of this, so they are misunderstanding Pelleruds actions or they are in fact correct.

[Guest Ed]

I see Richard has once again trotted out his standard end-of-argument line 'the girls refused to play an international and therefore were quite justly suspended'. I state for at least the 3rd or 4th time in this thread, I believe that this statement has not been proven true. Ms. Hooper clearly stated from the start that she was punted by some CSA hack well prior to the series you refer to, while sitting on an airplane with her husband and baby, en route to Vancouver to check out the residency details.

And as for the possibility of YET another coaching vacancy, the more the merrier if it leads to some kind of shakeup at 36 Metcalfe St.

[Richard]

"Ms. Hooper clearly stated from the start that she was punted by some CSA hack well prior to the series you refer to, while sitting on an airplane with her husband and baby, en route to Vancouver to check out the residency details."

Does anybody who keeps trotting out this claim have any evidence to support it other than what Ms Hooper herself has said. I have it on good authority from somebody well placed who wishes to remain anonymous that she has not revealed all of the details surrounding this incident. Yet again folks should be wary of jumping to conclusions based on one-sided or incomplete evidence.

My reserved position over this whole business should not be taken as a lack admiration for what Ms Hooper has done on the field for the women's team in years gone by. Clearly there are some in this forum who see an unwillingness to condemn the CSA and everybody associated with it and to hold Ms Hooper blameless in the face of partial, one-sided or incomplete information to be a betrayal of her and everything she has done. You could not be more wrong.

[Vic]

"that she has not revealed all of the details"

Well then, lay it out for us man. Anyone can cite an unknown third-party anonymous friend of a friend. We're all adults here. Back it up.

[Guest Ed]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

"Ms. Hooper clearly stated from the start that she was punted by some CSA hack well prior to the series you refer to, while sitting on an airplane with her husband and baby, en route to Vancouver to check out the residency details."

Does anybody who keeps trotting out this claim have any evidence to support it other than what Ms Hooper herself has said. I have it on good authority from somebody well placed who wishes to remain anonymous that she has not revealed all of the details surrounding this incident. Yet again folks should be wary of jumping to conclusions based on one-sided or incomplete evidence.

My reserved position over this whole business should not be taken as a lack admiration for what Ms Hooper has done on the field for the women's team in years gone by. Clearly there are some in this forum who see an unwillingness to condemn the CSA and everybody associated with it and to hold Ms Hooper blameless in the face of partial, one-sided or incomplete information to be a betrayal of her and everything she has done. You could not be more wrong.

You are missing the point. I clearly state, for the nth time, that the argument you base all your claims on, i.e.,"she bailed on national team games while being funded" has not been proven to be true. And, I offered her statements to the contrary. I will side with her until proven wrong as I think she is one of the few women on the team with the maturity and self-confidence to call out the CSA on their mistakes. Whereas you have no proof at all to the contrary but continue to base your arguments on that exact claim.

[Richard]

I said my source wishes to remain confidential so no matter how grown up you are I will not tell you who it is. What I can tell you is that what you wrote and I quoted back to you is patently incorrect. Your speculation is getting wilder by the post.

[CAFAN]

Fan, this issue hasn't produced any more passion than any of the ones I mentioned. Albeit, since those were US issues, you couldn't be expected to get caught up in the drama the same way.

And I don't think all Canadian soccer fans share your opinions. I for one do not think that this is the time to try to get this resolved. It appears to me that things have gone too far to expect a quick or a clean resolution. If that is the case, the 3 players in question cannot be expected to be supportive of the coach, nor good for team morale. In other words, they would be more of a liability to the team than an asset given the current situation. So, unless things change pretty dramatically, I wouldn't expect this issue to be dealt with until after the WWC. That would suit me just fine.

If fans choose to rush to judgement then so be it. The team has more important things to worry about. In fact, I believe the team has put this issue behind them (at least until after the WWC) and has made it clear they are fully prepared to go on without Hooper, Nonen and Latham. From my perspective, the best way to be a true Canadian fan is to support the team's wishes. Let this issue go for the time being and get on board with the team that will be representing Canada in China.

[Richard]

Well said.

[Vic]

I have no problem with anonymity, and didn't ask you to name your source. I said:

quote:

"that she has not revealed all of the details"

Well then, lay it out for us man.

Well, what are the details? I'm really curious. Please tell me you have more than someone saying "she hasn't revealed all the details."

p.s. "Your speculation is getting wilder by the post"? Sorry, but now I'm confused. What speculation would that be? I don't recall writing anything to do with this, or you quoted nothing back to me?

[Cheeta]

quote:Originally posted by CAFAN

It appears to me that things have gone too far to expect a quick or a clean resolution. If that is the case, the 3 players in question cannot be expected to be supportive of the coach, nor good for team morale. In other words, they would be more of a liability to the team than an asset given the current situation.

Sorry to say I agree. Agree 100%. But you're suggesting the CSA "stall" in taking final and decisive action irregardless of what the facts are or are not.

If you are suggesting that, you're suggesting the true facts of this fiasco don't matter a twig. Pellerud can't have done anything wrong and Charmain Hooper, Sharolta Nonen, and Christine Latham are just going to have to take one for the team.

Nice. Nice team. Long live Canadian soccer.

The below is enough for me to see Pellerud sacked on the spot. The weak ass argument he uses to justify the content of the e-mail insults the intelligence of any adult reading it.

"You must relocate to Vancouver in April and play 'W' here," Pellerud wrote to Latham in an e-mail on Feb. 1. It's believed that "W" refers to the W-League, the professional women's league of which the Whitecaps are a member.

Latham had just signed a contract with a pro team in Atlanta. Pellerud wrote in an e-mail that she must break it.

"It is no longer an option for you to go and play in Atlanta, even if that originally was your first choice. . . . As you know, Bob L in Whitecaps is trying to get hold of you, call him back immediately and feel free to negotiate a 'good deal' with him," Pellerud wrote. "Be smart."

When Latham told Pellerud she had already signed the contract to play for the Atlanta Silverbacks, Pellerud told her to pull out -- and made it clear her funding was at risk if she did not.

"Does not matter, this is not a discussion," Pellerud wrote. "Call them and pull back from commitment -- happens all the time in the soccer world.

"I can tell you right now that your participation in the Full Time player program in jeopardy (20.000cnd/year) [sic]."

When contacted yesterday, Pellerud said he was merely giving the 25-year-old forward advice on how to improve her development and have a more substantial role with the national team.

"I said to her, you can get to the necessary level by making the changes and coming to residency. For me, it didn't make sense that she wasn't attending," Pellerud said in a telephone interview.

[Vic]

quote:

"If that is the case, the 3 players in question cannot be expected to be supportive of the coach, nor good for team morale. In other words, they would be more of a liability to the team than an asset given the current situation."

I read that last night and it really got under my skin too, and disrupted my usual dreams of wealth and fame.

Everybody knows women are not like men, but no one knows that more than someone who's coached both. Whereas men think the women are emotional while they're cold and clinical, it's exactly the opposite. Men bottle and repress their emotions, and take it out on the field, while the women get it out and resolve it.

In general, I really don't care if the women don't like each other. I don't even care if they talk off the field. I don't care about dorm frathouse parties, inside jokes, matching t-shirts or secret handshakes. The only thing I care about is that when they step on that turf, they play like they were just released from Hell.

If I'm playing for country, I don't care if Satan is on my left, and Joseph Stalin is on my right. The only thing I care about is that they fill the net and give me good service.

I'm not big on Even Pellerud's handling of the three players, but I'll give you one thing, he would sell his soul to the devil himself to win. And not only do I respect that about him, I completely admire it.

I saw the Germans in 2003. And I don't want to see quivering emotional girls on that field. I want to see mature competent experienced cold clinical women. People who do it for a living, do it well, and do it under pressure. And if we get so caught up in morale and pizza parties that we can't resolve a conflict with three of our best at that, in 11 months in a world cup year, then perhaps Pellerud's singleminded dedication to winning has taught nothing.

[fan]

No where did I say that this issue was more passionate than any of the ones that you mentioned CAfan. No where did I say that "all" Canadian soccer fans agree with me or share my opinion. Try to be a little more careful with your comprehension please.

Also, no one expects any of the women to be supportive of the coach that has never been stated by anyone here. As far as morale or good for the team that's pure conjecture on your part. And I would disagree. Having Charmaine and the other women back on the team would serve to strengthen their character and make them an even stronger force going into the finals.

Everyone here realizes it's too late for a quick and clean resolution. So, that statement is totally redundant. I don't expect the issue to be resolved at all by the CSA. They have no desire to do so. And if the situation does not get resolved until after the WWC, that doesn't "suit me just fine" or any of the women involved, that is a totally selfish statement and horrendous outcome for everyone concerned and certainly a real negative outcome for Canadian soccer.

It has nothing to do with people rushing to judgment the issue is about resolving and clarifying what was exactly done and said to those women. And then deciding what steps should be taken.

No one has confirmed that don't believe that everyone on that team agrees to leave this behind and abandon the three key members of their soccer team. That's quite a foolish assumption!

You're certainly not the sole judge of what a true Canadian soccer fan and the opinion you have expressed leads me to believe that CAfan, Richard and many others here, have poor comprehension and very little understanding of what it means to be a true fan.

For one, a true fan stays with the team through good and bad times. And when there are bad at times is perfectly willing to sacrifice and go through troublesome periods in in order to see the team through to better times.A true fan doesn't abandon team members or coaches or any other members of the club when they are injured or in situations like this. When there is a conflict.

I will certainly be cheering on and supporting the Canadian women in China, and living and dying with her every shot. However I will no longer have any respect for Pellerud regardless of whether he is totally innocent or not, he should have spoken up and he should appear and defend himself.

And I will have considerably less respect for the remaining women on the team. If they don't have the courage and integrity to support their previous team members and ask and demand an inquiry before the World Cup.

If this matter goes on unresolved before the World Cup Canadian soccer will once again lose a great deal of its stature.

I believe that is what a considerable amount of the Canadian soccer fans feel at this moment.

[CAFAN]

Fan, you seem to be in a very angry, confused and judgemental state of mind.

Here's what some of the players had to say about the situation as reported by the Canadian press,

"But, as the team prepared to leave Monday for the inaugural Peace Queen Cup tournament in South Korea, the players were not sure they would welcome their former teammates back. "They let our team down," said Christine Sinclair, the Burnaby, B.C., native named national team captain to replace veteran Charmaine Hooper. "They wanted to do what they wanted to do and we've moved on. We don't expect them to be back and we're playing like they're not going to be back. We're going with the team we have."

Her thoughts were echoed by goalkeeper Erin McLeod. "Those three players have had a huge impact on this program. Since the loss of them we've been fortunate enough to come together as a team and move past it and become stronger for it."

"Neil said the action of the three players surprised the team. "At the beginning there was disappointment and frustration with not really knowing what's going on and wanting them to be part of this," she said. "At this point, we have moved on mentally quite a while ago."

Neil was cautious when asked if they would be welcomed back. "I think that's something you need to reassess," Neil said. "That's Evan's decision as well. "They are people who have a huge history with us. At the same time, as a team, we have to refocus ourselves."

McLeod was more direct. "I can't see that in the near future," she said.

The team captain and some of the key players have said their piece. It seems pretty clear to me they disagree with your position on the matter in pretty much every way. I can't say I'm surprised.

"Richard and many others here, have poor comprehension and very little understanding of what it means to be a true fan." "a true fan stays with the team through good and bad times"

"I will have considerably less respect for the remaining women on the team. If they don't have the courage and integrity to support their previous team members"

"I will no longer have any respect for Pellerud regardless of whether he is totally innocent or not"

"If this matter goes on unresolved before the World Cup Canadian soccer will once again lose a great deal of its stature."

Like I said, you seem to be in a very angry, confused and judgemental state of mind.

[fan]

Again your comprehension is poor CAfan. Your quotes I know about and so do most people, their not revelations or new information. I did not say "all" players I said

quote:don't believe that everyone on that team agrees to leave this behind and abandon the three key members of their soccer team. That's quite a foolish assumption!

I know some players dont like or want them to return.

So your points are redundant and you have poor comprehension of what you read.

I agree, I am angry at several people involved and that this situation has not been addressed properly.

Your comments were weak, foolish and selfish as I pointed out.

However I have been the same as you in the past and unfortunately probably in the future. I know people will point it out when I am, so thats fine.

I am judgemental about certain aspects of this situation and I am questioning of other aspects.You need to try to comprehend first and then reply based on what you read not what you thought you read.

Being angry and or judgemental is a correct reaction in specific situations.Confusion as I pointed out seems to rest with you when you are too hasty to judge and too concerned about verifying your own opinion as opposed to listening and reading accurately to comprehend.