CPSL...back to ethnic names?

[Rocket Robin]

I received this in my e-mail yesterday...

CPSL

Invitation

Press Conference

To announce details significant to the soccer community, to soccer fans in southern Ontario and to members of the multicultural community. Soccer, now a sport for all Canadians, will add a new dimension in 2006 – teams to represent ethnic communities now living in the GTA.

..............................................................

(seriously, if anyone can go, please e-mail me privately as I don't want to get blamed if 45 Voyageurs crash the meeting)!

..............................................................

I asked Durham Storm's manager John O'Neill at last night's game if he could tell me anything about what this would be about.

Apparently there's a few possible new teams in the Toronto area that would like to come in and use ethnic names. He said there's no chance his team will be renamed Durham Celtic.

.............................................................

I know that's not too popular in this forum for a number of reasons:

1. Those who think Toronto already has too many teams and pull out their atlases and almanacs and create these fantasy leagues perfectly geographically balanced. (usually they are not Ontario residents anyway).

2. Those who think there should be no ethnic teams allowed at all, even Toronto Croatia next year celebrating their 50th anniversary and bringing there 150 to 250 fans per game against some teams 50 to 70. (again those fans who never come out to games and think Toronto Supra sounds fine even though they've sometimes worn Portuguese replica colours over the years).

Well I'll be interested to read the result (looks like I won't be able to attend) but before and after will let you folks sound off.

A step backwards? Is the league getting desperate? Maybe they were amazed when after a North York Astros game with 70 fans ended, 350 pushed in to Esther Shiner Stadium to watch a playoff game in the local Somali league?

[L.T.]

Actually, I heard it's existing teams being 're-branded'...

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by L.T.

Actually, I heard it's existing teams being 're-branded'...

I suppose that if this is the only way to keep the league and its franchises alive, they don't have much option.

We all remember the controversy when the CSL did not allow ethnic names thus keeping Toronto Italia from proceeding with their application intentions.

I do think that while it may seem the logical thing to do in the short term, in the long run it will do nothing other than further marginalize a league that desperately want mainstream media attention.

db

[Richard]

This is not a smart move.

[beachesl]

The issue was an active one in Australia, where many of the franchise applicatons for the old NSL and the present A-League were rejected, not just because of the ethnic names but because other organizations themselves were ethnic sports groups even if the team name was not ethnically based. It has cost a lot of fan support in some cities there, but it was felt that the principle was important enough to stick to their guns.

Even if the reasons for allowing the re-entry of ethnic based club names (or even restrictive policies) are sound financially, my personal preference is for the leagues not to do it.

[Winnipeg Fury]

IF true, then it would be a huge step backward for the CPSL.

[L.T.]

Personally, for a regional league like the CPSL (which it seems is all the CPSL will ever be) it may be the way to go to survive.

The GTA has enough ethnic communities to support 'local' soccer and pump enough money into a semi-pro team to keep it going.

I know people have commented on how soccer clubs should go for the 'hard core' fan. I guess that is what they're doing.

[Richard]

This is the CPSL condemning itself to forever being a minor regional league.

[Winnipeg Fury]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

This is the CPSL condemning itself to forever being a minor regional league.

Couldn't agree more. I guess they have given up on becoming Canada's Second Division.

[Elias]

I think the sad reality is that it does not matter at all.

CPSL

When the CPSL was being put together about 10 years ago, I would have said no. But it has failed. Teams attract what like 50-100 people on average. And the majority are probably free.

An other article in the Hamilton Spectator today confirmed the Hamilton Thunder have been kicked out of Hamilton. The city even offered them a deal where they only had to pay this year's fees. The Thunder supposedly never even called back. Ottawa a couple years ago, Brampton last year, London hosting every tournament....this is a complete mickey mouse operation.

The CPSL will never be more than an elite senior league. There will never be matches on TSN. There will never be 10 000 people in the stands. There will never be million dollar sponsorships. Players will never make enough for this to be full-time. Having ethnic teams just confirms this.

An option for the CPSL would be to move to a major-junior set-up. Basically an under 21 league, but with players from 16-20. And maybe 2-3 overage players per team to add a little experience. But then all the youth clubs would probably be up in arms so probably wouldn't work.

I think ideally, the CPSL can become a national umbrella group for all senior elite amateur teams across Canada (but I doubt the provincial associations would like that). Basically a national division 2 with regional divisions (so basically for amateur clubs who are looking for something a little more competitive). Lets be honest here, a Canadian division 2 will never be anything more than what the CPSL currently is (i.e. 100 people a game, minimal pay, minimal interest, etc.).

And even calling the CPSL "elite" is a stretch. There are players who play in the Hamilton league who are better than Thunder players. But they can not make the commitment because of work, family, etc. My point is that even now, the CPSL does not attract the best possible talent. And I think seeing how well amateur teams do against CPSL sides in the Open Cup proves that.

ETHNIC TEAMS

As for "ethnic" teams. If they were to draw 5 000 fans a game, I would be all for it. Even a 1 000 a game on a regular basis. The sad part is they won't draw any better than current CPSL teams, besides any Serbian-Croatian matches.

Back in the mid-90's, there was a "Puma International League" set-up playing out of Lamport Stadium in Toronto. They drew flies. I remember there was an Albanian side and I think Tie Domi even played in a game or two for them. It's too late for European-backed ethnic teams in Toronto.

Rocket Robin pointed out 350 people for a Somali league match. The difference is that I think village rivalries would get more attention then national rivalries. For example, in the Chinese Fantasy Ice Hockey League, Beijing Toronto vs. Beijing Montreal would be more intense for our ex-pats, instead of Beijing Canada vs. Beijing Sweden. (Sidenote: don't those names sound real stupid?) So because 350 people show up to watch a Somali league match, unfortunately, does not mean they will show up to watch Toronto Somalia take on Toronto Kazahkstan.

However, if there are any individuals/groups out there who could get 5 000 people to show up, I don't think there's anything wrong with ethnic teams. But I doubt it. I have a funny feeling one of these teams is going to be a Greek team. Yeah, there were 40 000 people or whatever in Toronto's Greektown last summer celebrating Greek soccer, but none of them will show up for for a Toronto Greek team. The Toronto Olympians dominated the CPSL the first 2-3 years and were aimed at the local Greek community, nobody showed up.

Besides, pretending the CPSL is professional, the top amateur league in Ontario is basically mostly ethnic teams. Nobody shows up.

Now if we are talking a 8-12 team nationwide CSL, no, ethnic clubs would be real stupid. But we are taking Canadian division 2 soccer. Sort of like Albanian division 2 ice hockey.

So after all that bandwith waste, what's my point? That it doesn't make a difference.

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by Elias

I think the sad reality is that it does not matter at all.

CPSL

When the CPSL was being put together about 10 years ago, I would have said no. But it has failed. Teams attract what like 50-100 people on average. And the majority are probably free.

An other article in the Hamilton Spectator today confirmed the Hamilton Thunder have been kicked out of Hamilton. The city even offered them a deal where they only had to pay this year's fees. The Thunder supposedly never even called back. Ottawa a couple years ago, Brampton last year, London hosting every tournament....this is a complete mickey mouse operation.

The CPSL will never be more than an elite senior league. There will never be matches on TSN. There will never be 10 000 people in the stands. There will never be million dollar sponsorships. Players will never make enough for this to be full-time. Having ethnic teams just confirms this.

An option for the CPSL would be to move to a major-junior set-up. Basically an under 21 league, but with players from 16-20. And maybe 2-3 overage players per team to add a little experience. But then all the youth clubs would probably be up in arms so probably wouldn't work.

I think ideally, the CPSL can become a national umbrella group for all senior elite amateur teams across Canada (but I doubt the provincial associations would like that). Basically a national division 2 with regional divisions (so basically for amateur clubs who are looking for something a little more competitive). Lets be honest here, a Canadian division 2 will never be anything more than what the CPSL currently is (i.e. 100 people a game, minimal pay, minimal interest, etc.).

And even calling the CPSL "elite" is a stretch. There are players who play in the Hamilton league who are better than Thunder players. But they can not make the commitment because of work, family, etc. My point is that even now, the CPSL does not attract the best possible talent. And I think seeing how well amateur teams do against CPSL sides in the Open Cup proves that.

ETHNIC TEAMS

As for "ethnic" teams. If they were to draw 5 000 fans a game, I would be all for it. Even a 1 000 a game on a regular basis. The sad part is they won't draw any better than current CPSL teams, besides any Serbian-Croatian matches.

Back in the mid-90's, there was a "Puma International League" set-up playing out of Lamport Stadium in Toronto. They drew flies. I remember there was an Albanian side and I think Tie Domi even played in a game or two for them. It's too late for European-backed ethnic teams in Toronto.

Rocket Robin pointed out 350 people for a Somali league match. The difference is that I think village rivalries would get more attention then national rivalries. For example, in the Chinese Fantasy Ice Hockey League, Beijing Toronto vs. Beijing Montreal would be more intense for our ex-pats, instead of Beijing Canada vs. Beijing Sweden. (Sidenote: don't those names sound real stupid?) So because 350 people show up to watch a Somali league match, unfortunately, does not mean they will show up to watch Toronto Somalia take on Toronto Kazahkstan.

However, if there are any individuals/groups out there who could get 5 000 people to show up, I don't think there's anything wrong with ethnic teams. But I doubt it. I have a funny feeling one of these teams is going to be a Greek team. Yeah, there were 40 000 people or whatever in Toronto's Greektown last summer celebrating Greek soccer, but none of them will show up for for a Toronto Greek team. The Toronto Olympians dominated the CPSL the first 2-3 years and were aimed at the local Greek community, nobody showed up.

Besides, pretending the CPSL is professional, the top amateur league in Ontario is basically mostly ethnic teams. Nobody shows up.

Now if we are talking a 8-12 team nationwide CSL, no, ethnic clubs would be real stupid. But we are taking Canadian division 2 soccer. Sort of like Albanian division 2 ice hockey.

So after all that bandwith waste, what's my point? That it doesn't make a difference.

You're points are very valid IMO. If the CPSL has indeed accepted the fact that they are non-players (so to speak) and that any sort of survival is better than out and out collapse, then what difference does it make to the bulk of us.

The old NSL was an ethnic league with Italia, Croatia, Panhellenic, First Portuguese, Serbian White Eagles, Macedonia and so on and for some time they did well.

Eventually though, crowds slipped and soon only Croatia existed when even the formerly mighty Italia gave up.

As you say, the time for that type of league as a semi-pro circuit is long past.

I wish them luck if this is their chosen path and congratulate them on their realization that they will never be the pro-league of which they dream.

[Elias]

Thursday, September 15

[G-Man]

Soccer in this country has and always will be in the sporting ghetto. It doesn't matter what the teams are called, the sport will remain where it is.

Funny how FC Dallas is okay, or Real Madrid is okay. And Toronto Somalia would'nt be. I guess the first two are associated with safe white europe, while the later is associated with a non white culture.

And how many white soccer loving people would sit in the middle of 400 somalians. How many Italains would want to sit in the middle of 400 Greeks?

This reeks of PC babble. Long love FREEDOM OF CHOICE and ASSOCIATION.

[Winnipeg Fury]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

Soccer in this country has and always will be in the sporting ghetto. It doesn't matter what the teams are called, the sport will remain where it is.

Funny how FC Dallas is okay, or Real Madrid is okay. And Toronto Somalia would'nt be. I guess the first two are associated with safe white europe, while the later is associated with a non white culture.

And how many white soccer loving people would sit in the middle of 400 somalians. How many Italains would want to sit in the middle of 400 Greeks?

This reeks of PC babble. Long love FREEDOM OF CHOICE and ASSOCIATION.

You are right, FC Dallas and Real Madrid are OK because they don't cater to any specific ethnic group. They may be crappy names, but that is irrelevant.

The Winnipeg Fury had great crowds in the CSL because unlike our very talented amateur teams (Sons of Italy, Lucania,etc..) they did not cater to any specific ethnic crowd. In Winnipeg it doesn't matter which ethnic flag you fly, you will not draw crowds.

Why wouldn't white Canadians sit with Somalians ? If I can find a group of 400 Somalians cheering for Canada, myself and my family will gladly sit with them.

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

Soccer in this country has and always will be in the sporting ghetto. It doesn't matter what the teams are called, the sport will remain where it is.

I disagree. I think soccer is in an upward move in this country. I doubt it will ever overtake hockey, butit has a niche and that niche will grow.

[piltdownman]

I agree that Soccer is on a real upswing in Canada right now. Its been a big youth sport for a long time now, but now it seems to be on a real upswing in the professional scale right now. You just have to look at how much soccer is on tv these days. Last year Sports net started showing and extra game every saturday, and this year the score stared showing that sunday game. The Canadian women against germany, as well as the Fifa youth WC were done pretty well on sportsnet this year. We could argue that the game against spain was a mess, but it was the same weekend as the woman's games. Now within the next few year, no less than three SSS will be built in this country. Then the MLS will come over the border and I expect it to get as much coverage as at least the raptors or blue jays. I don't think soccer will ever surpass hockey in this country (without global warming, making it hotter than mexico here ) , but second should be a reasonable target here.

[leekoo]

quote:Originally posted by piltdownman

You just have to look at how much soccer is on tv these days.

not canadian soccer ...

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

Soccer in this country has and always will be in the sporting ghetto. It doesn't matter what the teams are called, the sport will remain where it is.

Funny how FC Dallas is okay, or Real Madrid is okay. And Toronto Somalia would'nt be. I guess the first two are associated with safe white europe, while the later is associated with a non white culture.

And how many white soccer loving people would sit in the middle of 400 somalians. How many Italains would want to sit in the middle of 400 Greeks?

This reeks of PC babble. Long love FREEDOM OF CHOICE and ASSOCIATION.

Sure. Freedom of choice but if it hurts your perception of legitimacy and in the long run harms your fight for a particular place in the mainstream media, it's slow suicide. If that's what you want, go for ethnic names. Just forever give up on any regular mainstream media attention.

Back five years or so ago, when the Lions were starting up, they wanted to be known as the All-Nations Lions as that was the church with which they were affiliated. That was later modified to Toronto All-Nations Lions before the All-Nations was dropped. The league was worried about perceptions.

BTW, I don't think Real Salt Lake works at all. What the hell does "Real" mean to people in Utah!

db

[piltdownman]

quote:Originally posted by leekoo

not canadian soccer ...

Well three Canadian national Team games in the last two weeks on sports net. And a few USL games on RDS and FSC.

[Jason]

I think the key is that strong teams develop, both on the pitch and in the office. If someone can put together a strong, well-run club that wins games and draws fans, who cares if he calls it an ethnic name? If Toronto Croatia for example was drawing 3000 per game and Toronto Somalia got 2500, why would that be a problem?

Somehow we think that that the club's success or failure is riding on the name. If the owner who is paying the money to run the club wants to call them whatever, let him. He either thinks the name will help or at least not hurt the club. The market will determine if he survives or not. The only restriction should be that the name is not considered offensive.

Jason

[DarnCherry]

quote:Originally posted by piltdownman

Well three Canadian national Team games in the last two weeks on sports net. And a few USL games on RDS and FSC.

Womens games and tape delayed games a week later don't count. Those few games on FSC have so few games involving Canadian teams as well. Hardly counts as "so much Canadian soccer".

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Jason

Somehow we think that that the club's success or failure is riding on the name. If the owner who is paying the money to run the club wants to call them whatever, let him. He either thinks the name will help or at least not hurt the club. The market will determine if he survives or not. The only restriction should be that the name is not considered offensive.

It can ride on a name. Fans are more willing to support a team given that it has a name people recognize.

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

It can ride on a name. Fans are more willing to support a team given that it has a name people recognize.

ya like the "lactics"

We're talking about the CPSL, like anyone cares. A question for all those that bitch about ethnic names in the CPSL, just how many CPSL games have you gone to or are planning on attending?

It's basically the top elite league in Toronto. Note: Not a Top PRO league anywhere.

As for all that soccer on TV, i would say that it's killing the idea of a pan canadian pro league. After watching Chelsea play on TV, who in their right mind would hot to go and watch the Lynx or it's cousins in Moose Jaw play??

FSW is like a porno . All these sexy eagar chicks on the screen and then-- when you get to the local bar it's full of fat men haters.

(which would be the USL 1 or a pan Candian league be in comparision).....

[DoyleG]

Sad to see G-Man wasn't thinking when he posted.

[Cheeta]

quote:Originally posted by piltdownman

Well three Canadian national Team games in the last two weeks on sports net. And a few USL games on RDS and FSC.

I'll give you the Div. 1 matchs. That was a very rare treat.

Don't watch womens footie (sorry), and an unadvertised, tape delayed mid week match buried in a late time slot? Ug.

Back to the topic at hand, I don't really see much harm in it. As has been mentioned this is the CPSL we're talking about here. So if the teams need that cruch to survive than so be it. They may outgrow it. Who knows?