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CPSL...back to ethnic names?


Rocket Robin

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quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

It can ride on a name. Fans are more willing to support a team given that it has a name people recognize.

I don't agree with you on this one. Lack of a recognizable name has not hurt the Toronto Rock. They draw some of the most impressive minor pro crowds in Canada. There is no obvious association or recognition of "Rock" that I am aware of when it comes to Toronto.

I don't think the name of the club will doom a well run, competitive franchise to failure. It may not bring more fans, but I don't think it'll kill it.

Jason

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quote:Originally posted by Jason

I don't agree with you on this one. Lack of a recognizable name has not hurt the Toronto Rock. They draw some of the most impressive minor pro crowds in Canada. There is no obvious association or recognition of "Rock" that I am aware of when it comes to Toronto.

I don't think the name of the club will doom a well run, competitive franchise to failure. It may not bring more fans, but I don't think it'll kill it.

Jason

The Rock are the exception to the norm. No one will follow a sport or league that has minimal recognition. A name that fits well with the city goes a long way to tell fans what they are selling. Names like the Aviators, Cracker-Cats, and Rush don't hold the same recognition as the Drillers or Trappers did. There's a reason why Winnipeg went with the Goldeneyes name. It has recognition in the community from the past.

If you don't have a name that doen't go well with the city your in, the team won't get very far with the public.

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quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

The Rock are the exception to the norm. No one will follow a sport or league that has minimal recognition. A name that fits well with the city goes a long way to tell fans what they are selling. Names like the Aviators, Cracker-Cats, and Rush don't hold the same recognition as the Drillers or Trappers did. There's a reason why Winnipeg went with the Goldeneyes name. It has recognition in the community from the past.

If you don't have a name that doen't go well with the city your in, the team won't get very far with the public.

Utah Jazz. For one.

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Guest HamiltonSteelers

The Jazz were an anomaly. Utah loves basketball and wanted major league anything at the time. Also I think the city and the state threw in incentives. The people voted to keep the name.

And of course the name does matter. The sad part is that the 900 people who show up to watch Hamilton Croatia are not going necessarily because it's a 'Hamilton' team, but because it's a 'Croatian' team... even if the side has 5 guys on it that are from South America. And of those 900 people in attendance, how many of them do you honestly believe were just casual soccer fans at the walkup?

If the name thing didn't matter, then why would the CPSL be making a fuss about it in the coming days with a press conference about it. The problem is that, much like pandering to families and children at games, people won't be going for soccer. They'll be going for Croatian soccer, for Italian soccer, Somali soccer, etc.

The big question is though: is that so wrong?

Is it OK for clubs to cash in on people's ethnic loyalties? Will this be the solution to a create a genuine interest in the CPSL? Does this set up for a bait-and-switch down the road, where people used to come watch Ottawa Macedonia, but now they stay for the soccer and attendees don't care about the ethnic ties? Will this method grow the game and at least the number of people who do get paid in this league?

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quote:Originally posted by HamiltonSteelers

The Jazz were an anomaly. Utah loves basketball and wanted major league anything at the time. Also I think the city and the state threw in incentives. The people voted to keep the name.

And of course the name does matter. The sad part is that the 900 people who show up to watch Hamilton Croatia are not going necessarily because it's a 'Hamilton' team, but because it's a 'Croatian' team... even if the side has 5 guys on it that are from South America. And of those 900 people in attendance, how many of them do you honestly believe were just casual soccer fans at the walkup?

If the name thing didn't matter, then why would the CPSL be making a fuss about it in the coming days with a press conference about it. The problem is that, much like pandering to families and children at games, people won't be going for soccer. They'll be going for Croatian soccer, for Italian soccer, Somali soccer, etc.

The big question is though: is that so wrong?

Is it OK for clubs to cash in on people's ethnic loyalties? Will this be the solution to a create a genuine interest in the CPSL? Does this set up for a bait-and-switch down the road, where people used to come watch Ottawa Macedonia, but now they stay for the soccer and attendees don't care about the ethnic ties? Will this method grow the game and at least the number of people who do get paid in this league?

At the end of the day, who cares why they paid for the ticket, as long as they are there. I'd rather have a situation like the Montreal Impact (relatively small core of soccer fans supplemented by families who are not as devoted, but combined to add up to significant attendance, resulting in good press and sponsorship) than have a much smaller crowd of hard cores.

By the way, do you think that the success of a NHL team in Hamilton would be predicated on its name? I am quite confident that the Hamilton __________ would fill Copps no matter what they were called. Or would a truly horrendous name doom the club to a half filled building? I don't live in Hamilton, but I'm pretty sure that they would go to the NHL regardless of the name. They are devoted hockey fans.

Jason

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I look at ethnic teams as niche marketing. A way to stick out and differntiate themselves. It's a way to market themselves to fans and sponsors (small businesses of the same ethnic background). Even if most of the team is NOT of the same ethnic background.

If ethnic teams were to get 5 000 people a game, I would be all for it. But they won't. Sure, Toronto Croatia vs. Toronto Serbia in the CPSL final will draw 5 000 fans (and riot police like the good ol' days). But that's it. It won't happen week in week out. That 900 fans for Hamilton Croatia was in the Spectator Cup final which is a pretty big deal for the Hamilton amateur soccer scene (it's the oldest sports trophy in North America, older than the Stanley and Grey Cups). And even a club like Croatia, with a long history, a ton of Croatians in the area, still only attracted 900.

A team's name makes no difference. Many raptors in Toronto? The difference with an ethnic name, is you automatically cut-off people who are not part of that ethnic group. I will not support a Hamilton Croatia, or a Hamilton Italia, or a Hamilton ethnic anything, besides my own of course.

As HamiltonSteelers says, people who show up for Hamilton Croatia, are not soccer fans, they are Croatia fans. It's the same as the Lynx trying to attract kids. They are not there for the soccer.

But I don't think the "bait-and-switch" as HamiltonSteelers says will work. In Australia, even though they changed the names, the clubs are still obviously affiliated with certain ethnic groups. Maybe if the old NSL clubs in the 70's who were drawing 10 000 at games had slowly switched from like First Portuguese to Toronto Supra and kept their ethnic base but expanded their non-ethnic base, than maybe. But it's too late now.

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quote:Originally posted by Rocket Robin

(again those fans who never come out to games and think Toronto Supra sounds fine even though they've sometimes worn Portuguese replica colours over the years)

You're right. And what's worse, all PA announcements at their home games are in Portuguese (or at least they were at the one Supra home game I attended a few years ago). Over the years people have pointed at "Supra" as an acceptable name, but who cares about that when you go to a game and everything is in Portuguese — it won't take long for a newbie to figure out what this team is really about and any attempt to appear "non-ethnic" by using the name "Supra" instead of "Portuguese" is rendered pointless. The fact is, several teams are already obviously "ethnic", whether by design or not and regardless of what their names are.
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quote:Originally posted by DJT

You're right. And what's worse, all PA announcements at their home games are in Portuguese (or at least they were at the one Supra home game I attended a few years ago). Over the years people have pointed at "Supra" as an acceptable name, but who cares about that when you go to a game and everything is in Portuguese — it won't take long for a newbie to figure out what this team is really about and any attempt to appear "non-ethnic" by using the name "Supra" instead of "Portuguese" is rendered pointless. The fact is, several teams are already obviously "ethnic", whether by design or not and regardless of what their names are.

This is getting silly.

Portuguese? You say? MY GOD. I wonder who owns and runs the team? Maybe a PORTUGUESE guy? I wonder who primarlity goes to supra games? Ummm Portuguese people.

I can see Stephen Harper and the wing nuts who think the GG should be white, loyal to the Queen getting upset. They'll sit at home and bitch. They won't stand up and actually do something.

So until WHITEBREAD Canadians start owning CPSL teams and speaking with their money, let the ETHNICS do it anyway they want. After all- they are CANADIANS who are developing soccer in the country.

Say what you want about the CPSL...it's better than NO CPSL. And the last time I went to Toronto, it was pretty ETHNIC. And the CPSL is a Toronto league in reality.

And the last thing we need is another team called the "Cybercats" or the "Lynx" with some college kid doing the PA spinning lame 80's music.

"I think thats what they call a corner kick"

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Guest HamiltonSteelers

If Hamilton Croatia, for example, wants to field a team in next years competition and there isn't another Hamilton entry that is non-ethnic, I would give them a chance and attend one game.

However, if all I get are announcements in Croatian and folk music blaring over the tannoy, then I will be out. I firmly believe that a fine line can be drawn, but the likelihood of that happening is slim. I attended a White Eagles game in the CNSL days, and never returned due to feeling like an outsider. But the marketing clearly worked since the team was gone shortly thereafter.

Jason, As far as a name making a difference, it does when you are trying to market a second or third tier spectator sport to an entire community. Trying to make an impression on a reluctant but willing to try audience, any advantage is a good one, be it the Boomers, Mustangs, or just calling if Calgary FC.

You are right though about Hamilton and the NHL. I'd buy seasons tickets for the Hamilton Shoehorns tomorrow if the team shows up today, maybe even buy a jersey too.

And I still think the 'Raptors' was the worst name of the three finalists.

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quote:Originally posted by HamiltonSteelers

And I still think the 'Raptors' was the worst name of the three finalists.

True, but it hasn't stopped you from going to any games or supporting the team has it?

quote:Originally posted by HamiltonSteelers

You are right though about Hamilton and the NHL. I'd buy seasons tickets for the Hamilton Shoehorns tomorrow if the team shows up today, maybe even buy a jersey too.

What if the NHL team was named Hamilton Croatia? Would you support them as much? And I mean obviously Croatian with Croatian folk music blarring, announcements mostly in Croatian etc.

I'm assuming you aren't Croatian. And obviously the NHL would never allow it but that's besides the point.

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Guest HamiltonSteelers
quote:Originally posted by Elias

True, but it hasn't stopped you from going to any games or supporting the team has it

I've been insulted as a sports fan by the Raptors from the naming of the team, so on and so forth. I haven't been to a Raptors game, and I don't see me breaking with tradition any time soon.

quote:What if the NHL team was named Hamilton Croatia? Would you support them as much? And I mean obviously Croatian with Croatian folk music blarring, announcements mostly in Croatian etc.

Though you are right that it would NEVER happen, I would have to lean towards no. And it isn't on an 'ethnic' level, but a 'comfort' level. If they blared country music all game, I would feel the same way. Being emotionally connected to the games enhance excitement. If there is no connection, then there is no repeat business from me.

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Why not market soccer "unlike" the NHL or NFL does for a change? Soccer in this country will never come close to those pro leagues and after 60 years fo doing the same dull thing, a change may work.

So I suggest that all teams have ethnic names and market leagues like the CSPL in Toronto as you would food. Want Portugese? then Supra is your team. Next week want an Italian soccer experience? Then Inter-Toronto is for you? Scottish? then Ajax Sheep Wankers is just the ticket and so on. If you want ho hum Canadian then the Lynx is for you.

Soccer is finge. Time to embrace being it.

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quote:Originally posted by G-Man

This is getting silly.

I think you read too much into my post (ie. that I was complaining). I was only supporting Robin's observation that some teams are ethnic even if their names are not.

Actually, though I did not intend it this way (nor the opposite), my post can be taken as support of ethnic names, ie. what's the point in getting all worked up about ethnic names when teams are already ethnic?

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From the CPSL web site:

CPSL TO LAUNCH INTERNATIONAL DIVISION IN WORLD CUP YEAR

Thursday - September 15, 2005

The Canadian Professional Soccer League will launch an International Division of professional teams representing a number of ethnic communities in the GTA in 2006 and three existing CPSL teams are leading the way.

Toronto Croatia, Vaughan Shooters and Toronto Supra will be members of the new division with Vaughan Shooters taking on an Italian name and continue to be based in York Region, while Toronto Supra will represent the Portuguese community in Toronto.

Teams representing the Chinese, Latin American, Korean and Greek communities are also included in those considered to be possible candidates.

This was announced by CPSL commissioner Cary Kaplan surrounded by flags of many nations at a press conference held at the Harbourfront Centre on Thursday morning.

“There is considerable interest in such a league which some years ago produced very good soccer, lots of passion but lacked the business plan. This time, there will be good soccer within a proper business model and a well-run strategy to make it work,” he told a media gathering.

Team members also spoke in favour of the move, including Theo Krajacic, spokesperson for Toronto Croatia. “We have maintained our identity over many years and we were proud to bring the North American soccer championship to Toronto in the 70’s, so this is great news and we believe the plan will be highly successful,” he said.

Soccer is a game for all Canadians and has been embraced by all levels of Canadian society and today is the most-played team sport in the country. The desire of players and administrators to represent an ethnic group and play against each other has remained strong, however, and the CPSL will provide that in a professional forum beginning next year – World Cup year.

The league remains steadfast in its mandate to also expand professional soccer in many communities in Central Canada and eventually other parts of the country on a regional basis and this goal is not affected by the addition of a division to accommodate those teams wanting to play at a high level while representing their country of origin.

The CPSL International Division will kickoff May, 2006.

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I don't live in the GTA or CPSL region. But if this "International" division works so be it. I've read alot of Rocket Robins' reports and what stands out (besides that all games are played on a warm and humid night [humour..Rocket]) is that the avg. attendance seems to be about 150. The CPSL needs a kick start. So what the hey, seems they can't go down only up.

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Guest HamiltonSteelers

You are right argh1. Nowhere to go but up.

My concern was the pending alienation of myself and others from CPSL games (Hamilton in particular).

And though I'd be thrilled with a Hamilton Thistle name (which was around 70+ years ago), that isn't fair to anyone else who doesn't want to support a Scot-based club, but would support a non-ethnic club.

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Back in the early 60's they used to run leagues in Canada (eastern canadian soccer league) that drew regular crowds of 1Ok plus to exibition stadium based on ethnic lines. My dad can remember going to games in Montreal where crowds reached 20K.

This CPSL thing could work.

http://www.sover.net/~spectrum/ecpsl.html

and of course the great league that was the NPSL. I've heard stories of the Ottawa Tigers getting crowds of 7k and bringing in guys from Italy Seria B for the summer.

I hate to say this but...Canadians can't run leagues. Surburbia is a soccer pro wasteland. Time to return to our roots.

http://www.sover.net/~spectrum/cnsl.html

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quote:Originally posted by argh1

I don't live in the GTA or CPSL region. But if this "International" division works so be it. I've read alot of Rocket Robins' reports and what stands out (besides that all games are played on a warm and humid night [humour..Rocket]) is that the avg. attendance seems to be about 150. The CPSL needs a kick start. So what the hey, seems they can't go down only up.

It smacks of desperation but as you say, if it works, so be it. They had to do something and and it can't get much worse than it is now or has been ever since day 1.

db

db

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I missed the press conference. (I've taken off enough days from my 8-5 job for Lynx/Lady Lynx afternoon games so let this one pass and the, what is it now, four CSA press conferences to announce Toronto stadium locations?)

I heard it was a real fiasco and it was all over in twenty minutes because as one club official said "Where were the owners? Where was the media?" for the sparse attendance.

The North York Astros won't be changing their name so I heard so will they be allowed to play in this 'International Division' of Toronto area teams? Maybe they don't want to cut into their fan base (of what 75?) by changing their name to reflect owner Bruno Ierullo's Argentinian roots.

It looks like the biggest change is the end of territorial exclusivity for the Toronto area teams. That means there's nothing that would prevent say another York Region team coming into the league.

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From how I read into it and what I've been told, this will be just a Metro/World conference with interlocking play. Just like the Eastern and Western conference is right now. So now there will be three conferences. I suppose it will depend on how many new Toronto area teams want to squeeze into the CPSL that will decide on how much of an interlocking schedule there is.

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quote:Originally posted by Rocket Robin

From how I read into it and what I've been told, this will be just a Metro/World conference with interlocking play. Just like the Eastern and Western conference is right now. So now there will be three conferences. I suppose it will depend on how many new Toronto area teams want to squeeze into the CPSL that will decide on how much of an interlocking schedule there is.

If in fact this means more GTA area clubs, I really have to wonder what they're thinking. Yes, they are desperate and are looking for any port in a storm but how many GTA teams do you really want especially as this appears o be an interlocking system.

db

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So basically the huge announcement was...wait for it...nothing!! No teams, no owners, no nothing. They must be taking lessons from the CSA.

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

Back in the early 60's they used to run leagues in Canada (eastern canadian soccer league) that drew regular crowds of 1Ok plus to exibition stadium based on ethnic lines. My dad can remember going to games in Montreal where crowds reached 20K.

I might be wrong, but my calculator says the 60's was 40 years ago. The main thing is that the immigrants who were 20 and 30 year olds who went to the games then, are in their 70's now. They are not going to go to the games. Kids today are 2nd/3rd/4rth generation Canaidan with a quarter-this, a quarter-that, etc. (in terms of family ethnic background), it is not the same for many reasons.

Having said that, it just might have potential. Croatia, Italy and Portugal have all basically qualified for the World Cup next year. If they can somehow feed off of that and even get 2 000 people a game would be a good start. And then hopefully keep the fans and even grow, which would be the real challenge.

I don't see the harm in having elite-level clubs that can develop Canadian talent. If ethnic teams is the way to survive, so be it. Besides, I don't think anybody will choose a last name over talent.

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From the CPSL press release: "Toronto Croatia, Vaughan Shooters and Toronto Supra will be members of the new division"

Does this mean three fewer teams in the regular first division of the CPSL or are these clubs putting a second team into the new International Division?

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I think it's just like others pointed out, instead of East and West divisions, they will have Canadian and International Divisions or something. Depends on how many teams.

Right now there would be 9 in the Canadian (maybe split into east and west), and 3 (Croatia, Supra and Vaughan) in the International. I guess it all comes down to how many teams are involved.

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