Toronto Sun: MLS vs The Lynx

[Winnipeg Fury]

Kicking and dreaming

Richard Peddie and MLSEL believe the time is right to put a new pro soccer team in the GTA, but according to the Toronto Lynx, they are just ...

By STEVE BUFFERY -- Toronto Sun

Bruno Hartrell, undoubtedly the least known of all professional sport franchise owners in Toronto, has some news for the bigwigs who run Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment Ltd.

Your plan to bring a Major League Soccer franchise to Toronto, he said, is doomed to fail. It will lose money from the start and won't last.

And furthermore, the normally mild-mannered accountant added, MLSEL is being naive and arrogant in believing that they can make high-salaried professional soccer in Toronto work where countless others have failed. (Remember the NASL)?

"If they think there's money in soccer (in Toronto), they've misjudged the market terribly," he said.

Hartrell, owner of the Toronto Lynx of the United Soccer League, which is considered one tier below the MLS, conveys that message out of anger, some spite, but most of all, out of having tried to sell and promote pro soccer in these parts for nine years, at a personal cost of close to $3 million.

"I don't know what they know about selling a soccer ticket," Hartrell said recently about his friends at MLSEL. "They haven't had to worry about selling a hockey ticket for 50 years. I could run the Maple Leafs. But they'll find out."

Obviously, Hartrell is against MLSEL's plan to acquire an MLS franchise, mainly because he feels it will kill his outfit -- the Toronto Lynx -- and everything it stands for, which is, he said, about promoting and nurturing Canadian soccer at all levels. On top of its First Division team in the USL, the Lynx operates a women's team and various age-group squads.

Hartrell is also livid with the Canadian Soccer Association. The CSA wholly endorses an MLS franchise in Toronto and he considers that a stab in the back.

"The CSA has become a cheerleader for the MLS," Hartrell said. "If I sound bitter, well, I'm very bitter. For nine years, we've been putting money into this team and the CSA has supposedly been behind us in terms of playing in a new stadium. And now it's: 'By the way, we're getting another tenant who's going to be your competition.' "

The Lynx play out of the nearly decrepit Centennial Stadium in Etobicoke. It's not really a good deal. Centennial offers the worst in quality seating for fans and was designed more for track and field than soccer.

Hartrell's team can't even play a home game until next Sunday because the pitch isn't ready. By then, they will have played six in a row on the road. The franchise has been waiting patiently for years for a soccer-friendly stadium to be built somewhere in Toronto so it can move in and give its fans a more enjoyable soccer experience. Hartrell believes that once they have a decent stadium to play in, his franchise will become moderately profitable, and that's with an operating budget of "only" about $1 million.

But if MLSEL secures an MLS franchise, Hartrell figures not only will they eventually go out of business, his outfit might die as well, particularly if it has to share a stadium, as the market would over-saturated.

"We certainly don't need the competition," Hartrell said. "We're already hard-pressed to get fans."

It's likely that a new stadium will be built at York University (despite the various false starts), and Hartrell wants to be a tenant there. But so does MLSEL.

Major League Soccer has lost millions since being formed in 1996, and has stayed afloat thanks largely to the willingness a couple of billionaire owners, Philip Anschutz and Lamar Hunt.

Unlike the USL, which generally targets kids as its prime fan base, an MLS franchise -- which would cost MLSEL a reported $10 million in rights fees and close to $5 million in annual operating costs -- would have to draw at least 15,000 a game to make a profit on a ticket that would cost considerably more than what the Lynx charges, which is $15 for adults and $7.50 for kids.

Still, MLSEL president Richard Peddie is confident that, despite Hartrell's gloomy outlook, it can make a go of it.

"No one's had the marketing clout, the leverage and, frankly, the sophistication of Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment," Peddie said. "Extensive market research points to the fact that there is a real appetite for this in the (Toronto) market. That encourages us.

"We also know, with the diversity in this city, the way it's growing, the people who come to Toronto generally like soccer first and basketball second."

That's all fine and good, Hartrell said. But there is one problem. Traditionally, soccer diehards in Toronto support teams from the "old country" -- top club teams in the English, Italian leagues, etc.

Various professional incarnations in Toronto have failed, he said, because soccer fans consider the pro game outside of Europe bush league or, at least, second tier. That's why his franchise targets kids, not necessarily sophisticated soccer fans.

Peddie recently told George Gross of The Toronto Sun that soccer fans in the GTA want "good, not average" soccer, implying that MLS fits that bill. Again, Hartrell said Peddie is being naive, that fans in Toronto will not consider MLS major league.

"I've got news for you Mr. Peddie," Hartrell said. "They want the best soccer. And the best soccer is in Europe."

Dick Howard has been involved in soccer in Canada for decades, having played pro for the old Toronto Metros, among other squads, and in England. Now a member of the technical committee for FIFA, the governing body of world soccer, Howard, who is also a consultant with the Lynx, agrees that an MLS team could fragment the market enough in Toronto to harm both squads, as well as the USL squads in Montreal and Vancouver -- along the lines of the theory that an NFL team in Toronto would eventually kill the CFL.

What Howard would like to see is for MLSEL to throw some of its financial clout behind the Lynx, perhaps even joining Hartrell in an ownership capacity, and then market the two teams together -- the MLS squad as, perhaps, the Division One team, and the Lynx as a developmental team.

"There's been at least 10 (pro) leagues fold since the 1960s in Canada," Howard said. "You need stability and people working together for the good of the game. We can't just look at a quick fix for Toronto, trying to get people into a new stadium."

While Hartrell is certainly open for discussion with Peddie and MLSEL, that feeling has not been reciprocated, at least not to him. Peddie said he sees the Lynx as competition, but suggested that if, and when, an MLS franchise is granted for the 2007 season (the year the league has targeted for expansion), MLSEL would sit down and talk with Hartrell.

Hartrell said the most surprising and disappointing aspect of possible MLS expansion into Toronto is the Canadian Soccer Association's support of a new team. He feels that the CSA would be signing the Lynx's death certificate if it supports MLSEL's endeavours to bring a Major League Soccer team to T.O.

Kevan Pipe, CSA chief operating officer, insisted that his organization does support MLS expansion into Canada, but also the USL, and that the two can co-exist.

Pipe believes a higher level of pro soccer in this country ultimately would aid the national men's team, giving top level Canadian players a chance to play at home for some decent money. While USL players make around $25,000 per season, MLS players can make three or four times that.

Mark Abbott, chief operating officer of MLS, told The Toronto Sun last week that, if his league expands to Canada, the it would consider implementing a CFL-type rule that would limit the number of foreign players on Toronto's team, ensuring that there would be a healthy number of Canadians on the squad. A similar rule exists with the 12 U.S. teams and American players. And that, Pipe said, would be a boon to the national team.

But Hartrell doesn't buy into that theory, believing it delusional that one MLS team in Canada ultimately would raise the level of the national team. He said Canada's best players, such as Paul Stalteri (who plays in Germany for Werder Bremen) and Tomasz Radzinski (Fulham in England), will continue to play in Europe where the money is vastly superior to what the MLS can pay.

Whether Toronto is granted an MLS franchise will not be known for at least a couple of months, and there will be no deal unless a new stadium is built. But if MLSEL does acquire a team, Hartrell is fearful that the expansion will hurt the pro game in Toronto.

Howard, for his part, hopes that MLSEL will sit down with Hartrell and figure out a way they can coexist. He certainly understands why the Lynx are not thrilled with an MLS team in town, taking the prime dates at a new stadium.

"They (the Lynx) have been basically ignored in the process," Howard said. "How would you feel if you were running a corner store and suddenly WalMart comes in and says: 'I'm sorry, but we're taking over.' "

[Gian-Luca]

Hilarious article, but a good one. Shows why the Lynx have a continual losing record and are off to another flying winless in six start. Its incredible that the Lynx seem to think they've odne a good job in marketing the team.

You have a small-time owner telling a large company that they can't make money with soccer in Toronto, in the hopes of scaring the large company away so that the small-time owner can make money with soccer in Toronto. The chances of Peddie falling for Bruno's self-serving argument is probably less than that of Canada winning the 2006 World Cup. My advice to Peddie is to keep ignoring the Hartrells. No good will come of any discussion.

Would this be a good time to remind people Toronto Italia used to pull in larger crowds playing in the NSL than the Lynx when they were up against the larger crowds of the Toronto Blizzard in the NASL days?

Great write up about Centennial Stadium by the way.

[G-Man]

"There's been at least 10 (pro) leagues fold since the 1960s in Canada," Howard said."

And there will always be those that dream and do not learn from history. A new pan canadian league will die just as an MLS team in TO would. Make what we have better.

[Metro]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Would this be a good time to remind people Toronto Italia used to pull in larger crowds playing in the NSL than the Lynx when they were up against the larger crowds of the Toronto Blizzard in the NASL days?

G-L, you didn't expect a mainstream asrticle on soccer to get the facts right, did you? [8D]

I could understand the Hartrells' frustration, but what a way to promote the Lynx...I'm still waitng for a reporter to ask: "If you think Toronto is such a bad soccer market, why are you still in it? And why would a new stadium make any difference, then?"

Anyway, very typical to see big a fat article mentioning the Lynx in today's paper, but if you were to try and find a Lynx game report over the weekend, good #$%!!%$ luck.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Metro

G-L, you didn't expect a mainstream asrticle on soccer to get the facts right, did you? [8D]

I could understand the Hartrells' frustration, but what a way to promote the Lynx...I'm still waitng for a reporter to ask: "If you think Toronto is such a bad soccer market, why are you still in it? And why would a new stadium make any difference, then?"

Anyway, very typical to see big a fat article mentioning the Lynx in today's paper, but if you were to try and find a Lynx game report over the weekend, good #$%!!%$ luck.

Well its an odd Business strategy that Bruno is employing. He is promoting the product that he is trying so sell by denigrating it and saying that nobody is interested in it.

I guess that the intent is to promote his product. Ground breakimg stuff, I'd say!! Maybe it should be published in the Harvard business review

[Guest HamiltonSteelers]

The Hartrells must do a better job of getting in the face of the Toronto press and in the community. I'm speculating here, but do Lynx players do anything in the soccer community? Go to schools? Show up at minor soccer camps and practices? Do the lynx do anything to better the perception of the game other than whine about it in the press?

What do the Lynx have to do to get positive press in Toronto print media? Perhaps get a player or two to appear on Off The Record, or a morning radio/TV show... anything to get the team in the spotlight.

Berating your fans and undermining your position isn't a marketing tactic. It's simply pathetic.

[Free kick]

Yes, yes , yes and Yes. I do believe that the Lynx players do speak in schools and so forth. Every year, the lynx have one or two "school day" type games that are played in mid week afternoons and are always the best attended games of the year. Regarding "off the record", Long time lynx defender, Joe Mattachione, has been a guest on the show on at least one occasion.

Also, minor camps are a big part of the Lynx operations.

[Richard]

I think one of the best investments the Hartrells could make is in retaining the services of a really professional public relations firm and to stop talking off-the-cuff to the press themselves. They clearly have a major problem in this area.

[Guest HamiltonSteelers]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

Yes, yes , yes and Yes. I do believe that the Lynx players do speak in schools and so forth. Every year, the lynx have one or two "school day" type games that are played in mid week afternoons and are always the best attended games of the year. Regarding "off the record", Long time lynx defender, Joe Mattachione, has been a guest on the show on at least one occasion.

Also, minor camps are a big part of the Lynx operations.

I wasn't aware of it. Then I stand corrected and educated.

quote:Originally posted by Richard

I think one of the best investments the Hartrells could make is in retaining the services of a really professional public relations firm and to stop talking off-the-cuff to the press themselves. They clearly have a major problem in this area.

Fully agree. Image is 90% in getting people into the stands.

[Gian-Luca]

Yes, Hartrell's comments are appalling, and the argument that having players in the MLS won't raise the level of the Canadian national team is flawed, particularly since the belief the MLS will help the national team does not rest on bringing back players like Stalteri & Radzinski back to Canada to play in their prime, but increasing the depth of the national team by having more players in addition to those playing in Europe playing at a higher level in North America. Its particularly ironic that Hartrell would state this view when there are three ex-Lynx players, at least one of whom (Pozniak) is part of the National team, who would rather ply their trade in 2nd Division Norway than play for the Toronto Lynx. So what does that tell you, Bruno?

Actually, this article gives me some hope that we will see the MLS in a slightly-reduced capacity stadium at York (assuming it still happens) as the MLSE still seem to be intent on getting a team in there, assuming these quotes were taken after the news of the Argos flip flop. Now where's my good friend Elias got to?

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

?

Actually, this article gives me some hope that we will see the MLS in a slightly-reduced capacity stadium at York (assuming it still happens) as the MLSE still seem to be intent on getting a team in there, assuming these quotes were taken after the news of the Argos flip flop. Now where's my good friend Elias got to?

Yes, That thought did cross my mind as well. I was concerned that the revamped version of the stadium might not be suitable to investors looking to run a pro outfit. The notion that Rogers might somehow be behind this through some sort of motivation to shut out MLSE from summertime spnsorship $$$ also crossed my mind.

But apparantly not, so that has to be good news.

[FC Beast]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Yes, Hartrell's comments are appalling, and the argument that having players in the MLS won't raise the level of the Canadian national team is flawed, particularly since the belief the MLS will help the national team does not rest on bringing back players like Stalteri & Radzinski back to Canada to play in their prime, but increasing the depth of the national team by having more players in addition to those playing in Europe playing at a higher level in North America. Its particularly ironic that Hartrell would state this view when there are three ex-Lynx players, at least one of whom (Pozniak) is part of the National team, who would rather ply their trade in 2nd Division Norway than play for the Toronto Lynx. So what does that tell you, Bruno?

Actually, this article gives me some hope that we will see the MLS in a slightly-reduced capacity stadium at York (assuming it still happens) as the MLSE still seem to be intent on getting a team in there, assuming these quotes were taken after the news of the Argos flip flop. Now where's my good friend Elias got to?

Hartrell is just upset someone new and chances are better might be

moving in on his turf. If so tough, he has had plenty of time to

turn the LYNX into a respectable franchise, but has failed to do so.

The Lynx have failed to get players onto the national team or a regular basis, maybe just one or two total. The Lynx days are numbered

whether theMLS come or not, people will not spend good money to see

the crap the LYNX produce. 6 games played to date, 0 wins, 4 defeats,

2 ties.[xx(]

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Would this be a good time to remind people Toronto Italia used to pull in larger crowds playing in the NSL than the Lynx when they were up against the larger crowds of the Toronto Blizzard in the NASL days?

That was an occasional thing G-L. It didn't happen on a regular basis. Once in a while, NSL would book the Ex for matches and they could get some good crowds but for a good period of time that the Blizzard existed, Lamport was the home of all Toronto based NSL teams and we know its capacity is only about eight thousand or so.

Yes, Italia occasionally outdrew the Blizzard but if anything, they would have outdrawn the last year of the Metro's when their average attendance had dropped to six thousand and change.

I've heard some insane stories about those big NSL games including on-field riots complete with charging police horses.

Some of the worst were Serbian White-Eagles vs. Croatia. I suppose that's no surprise.

db

[Elias]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Actually, this article gives me some hope that we will see the MLS in a slightly-reduced capacity stadium at York (assuming it still happens) as the MLSE still seem to be intent on getting a team in there, assuming these quotes were taken after the news of the Argos flip flop. Now where's my good friend Elias got to?

Maaaaaan, I was trying so hard to ignore this thread, not only cause that's one stupid article (damn, the Lynx just keep making even bigger fools of themselves - everybody has pretty much pointed out all the stupidities), but these Toronto MLS threads always end up being about Toronto vs. anti-Toronto and have very little actual soccer content.

But okay, the little fishy will bite...

First, ideally, I want to see a nation-wide 16 team Premier League, a nation-wide 16 team Division 1 and a 16 team Division 2 followed by regional leagues. This would allow for example the champion of the Yukon Premier Division to move to the nation-wide D2 and eventually to the Premier League.

Just think of the epic battles; the National Open Cup final between Red Deer Town representing Canada against those big bad evil FC Toronto M&M Blizzard (I prefer Scor myself) United in front of 80 000 people at Thunder Bay stadium. Who all took VIA to get there of course.

Now I really believe that is possible. What needs to be done is the CSA must put aside $2-million a year for the next 20 years, the CSA must get the NFL to expand into Saskatchewan (cause any Yankee can spell that), and the CSA must get the beast to stop being so negative. I don't think it's possible....the beast is just too negative.

Plan B (somebody around here has to have one), I would settle for MLS in Toronto (and hopefully eventually in Montreal, Vancouver and Alberta). As I posted in an other thread, and got hammered, I think it would be a huge success in Toronto. Especially if the super-slick Leafs marketing-machine was involved.

quote:

"No one's had the marketing clout, the leverage and, frankly, the sophistication of Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment," Peddie said.

That's the only smart thing that dork has ever said. And the reason MLS and pro soccer would be successful this time in Toronto.

quote:

Peddie said. "Extensive market research points to the fact that there is a real appetite for this in the (Toronto) market. That encourages us."

"Extensive"? Ha, I guess I ain't the only one spending too much time at this web site. []

quote:

Howard said. "How would you feel if you were running a corner store and suddenly WalMart comes in and says: 'I'm sorry, but we're taking over.' "

No way there Billy-Bob, that's never happened. Welcome to the f-ing real world. (That was not a shot at Howard. He seems to be in support of MLS in Toronto, but needs to sit on the fence as he is on the Lynx payroll).

Although, the CSA has handled the situation with the Lynx horribly. What does that remind us of class?

I think GL made the comment about some reporter quoting some negativity from this site, how come none of these Toronto reporters ever quote anybody here that there's a huge group who actually want MLS in Toronto?

quote:Originally posted by Metro

I'm still waitng for a reporter to ask: "If you think Toronto is such a bad soccer market, why are you still in it? And why would a new stadium make any difference, then?"

Anyway, very typical to see big a fat article mentioning the Lynx in today's paper, but if you were to try and find a Lynx game report over the weekend, good #$%!!%$ luck.

Yes please. Would that not be the first question you would ask? And I guess it's because the Leafs-obsession but why are these articles being printed? What exactly is newsworthy about them? There is absolutely nothing new in that article.

As for the Leafs, it's about protecting their turf (incl. stadium/arena events like concerts). Just like Freek kick pointed out about Rogers keeping the Leafs out of summer sports (which I'm sure they took into consideration with the Argos), the Leafs are also trying to protect their turf. Just like Bruno is with all those stupid comments, you know, Major League Baseball would never sell in Toronto, but Triple A would!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I really hope the Leafs are serious. But we have seen how much you can bank on intentions. The problem is, if it made sense for the Argos to invest $20-million (which it didn't), then why doesn't it make sense for the Leafs to do the same? The problem I have with believing this is that the Leafs are a private corporation that need to see huge returns which just won't happen with the soccer team. I can't believe there are no rich Torontonians who are interested in this.

Plus, if the Leafs pretend to be interested, it keeps a lot of other people out of the game. Who else can go up against the country's premier sports and marketing corporation? Rogers is really the only one. So if the Leafs change their intentions in 6 months, it will be too late for an other group to get going for 2007. So then we are looking at 2009 or whenever the next round of expansion will be.

As strong as the Leafs are in this market, they need to keep growing (and protecting) their company. They must surely realize how many people didn't miss the NHL. So it does not help them if an MLS team and a new stadium come to town. The entertainment and corporate sponsoship dollar is limited.

One last point, those Peddie comments are not necessarily after the Argos pulled out, nor has anybody from the Leafs board (who would actually call the shots on this) ever been quoted as saying they want a soccer team.

And Gian-Luca, I see you are slowly coming over to the dark-side "stadium at York (assuming it still happens)" []

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by dbailey62

That was an occasional thing G-L. It didn't happen on a regular basis. Once in a while, NSL would book the Ex for matches and they could get some good crowds but for a good period of time that the Blizzard existed, Lamport was the home of all Toronto based NSL teams and we know its capacity is only about eight thousand or so.

Yes, Italia occasionally outdrew the Blizzard but if anything, they would have outdrawn the last year of the Metro's when their average attendance had dropped to six thousand and change.

I've heard some insane stories about those big NSL games including on-field riots complete with charging police horses.

Some of the worst were Serbian White-Eagles vs. Croatia. I suppose that's no surprise.

db

That's not what I meant though - what I was saying was that Toronto Italia, even when it faced the stiff competition of NASL Blizzard, were often pulling in crowds larger than what the Lynx are able to attract without any stiff competition for their live soccer dollar.

So not only can two Toronto teams co-exist at the same time at different perceived tiers of play, its possible for a lower-tiered team to do much better than what the Lynx have ever been able to do (even when they had a downtown stadium to play in with 9000 seating capacity). I realize that times have changed in many ways, but not enough to completely wipe away the market demand for watching live quality soccer in Toronto.

Actually I wasn't even aware that Toronto Italia were ever able to outdraw the NASL Blizzard on any occasion. Interesting.

[sj]

I'll take the Hartrell any day over the CSA.

they have provided a channel for players to improve their skills and find employment in Europe

list the amount of players that went thru the lynx system before moving to Europe and subsequently playing for the national side

if we had more clubs like the lynx our national side would be in much better shape today.

the problem is that if you play for the lynx or even for that matter the whitecaps the CSA tends to look elsewhere to built the national side.

the minute a player move to Europe he is automatically in the pool.

in some cases unattached players get higher consideration than if you play for one of those clubs.

think about where those players that moved to bigger club would have been without the likes of the lynx.

all those players would tell you that the lynx played an important part in their development,keep them in the game long enough that they were able to make a career out of it.

For those who are following Canadian soccer player's careers in Europe chances are the player your are a big fan of has at one point worn a lynx uniform and where were you when they were playing for the lynx.

The lynx is too good for Toronto.

anywhere else they will get better consideration

the Hartrell should move the team to Canada games Stadium which is much better than anything Toronto has to offer when it comes to a decent soccer stadium.

If Montreal and Saputo can build a stadium at the tune of 15 millions

why cant Toronto and the CSA build one with 30 millions that will serve mainly the soccer community.

the city of Toronto and the CSA is the problem not the game of soccer.

[Cheeta]

Oh, Bruno reads pretty bad in that articule.

Don't get me wrong. As far as I'm concearned he has every right to bitch, moan, and otherwise spit and scream. But he just reads really, really bad.

Did get the best quote in though. "What the Hell dose MLSE know about selling soccer? They haven't had to sell a hockey ticket in 50 years..."

Ouch. It's funnier because it's true.

I've wondered if both MLS and Div 1 could play out of Toronto. If the Lynx can get over the hoopla of a new MLS team, a year, say two tops, they might be allright. Especially if they play out of York. As was mentioned in the articule, the Lynx ticket pricing is going to be way more family friendly than anything Toronto X brings.

And I honestly don't think the quality is so different to the trained eye. Especially when the events well be played out on the same stage (York). Guess it all breaks down to perception. Or presentation. Or something...

Cut Bruno some slack (again, don't get me wrong. Maybe Toronto's outgrown the Hartrel clown act. I'm just saying cut the man some slack). Number of crap semi-pro matchs played in Winnipeg since the CSL failed after the '92 season?

Zip. Zero. Sweet eff-all.

Number of crap semi-pro matchs played in Toronto? What, 140-150 and counting?

[dbailey62]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

That's not what I meant though - what I was saying was that Toronto Italia, even when it faced the stiff competition of NASL Blizzard, were often pulling in crowds larger than what the Lynx are able to attract without any stiff competition for their live soccer dollar.

So not only can two Toronto teams co-exist at the same time at different perceived tiers of play, its possible for a lower-tiered team to do much better than what the Lynx have ever been able to do (even when they had a downtown stadium to play in with 9000 seating capacity). I realize that times have changed in many ways, but not enough to completely wipe away the market demand for watching live quality soccer in Toronto.

Actually I wasn't even aware that Toronto Italia were ever able to outdraw the NASL Blizzard on any occasion. Interesting.

Ya, sorry, I misread your post, obviously.

Every once in a while, for a very big game, the NSL would rent the Ex. For some of those games, they would draw five figures. Some Blizzard games had pathetic attendances especially during those two years when they really stunk.

Also, I may have been taken in by some Rocco-Spin in regards to Italia's old attendances but their crowds really did fall off the table in the mid 90's. When we were doing their games for Rogers, the only game that would draw a crowd in four figures was when Croatia brought their own fans. Croatia was the only decent draw in those late NSL years.

That said, the best NSL sides were definately competitive with the CSL and it's a shame they never did have a Toronto Challenge Cup with Italia, Croatia, Blizzard and Rockets.

Dragon Jakimovski wanted to play for the Blizzard and I would have taken him over Petr Rada and he would have been a lot cheaper. The less said about Edinho the better.

Back to your original point, yes, Italia and Croatia, even in competition with the Blizzard did draw more than the Lynx do now. The biggest difference between now and then though is the demise of ethnic support. It's nothing now like it was then.

As for the market for quality soccer, I suspect you're right but it's been such a long time since we've had any quality soccer here.

db

[DoyleG]

Overall balanced article. Certainly with quotes worth debating.

quote:"I don't know what they know about selling a soccer ticket," Hartrell said recently about his friends at MLSEL. "They haven't had to worry about selling a hockey ticket for 50 years. I could run the Maple Leafs. But they'll find out."

No doubt the most accurate part of the article. The Maple Leafs name is basically self promoting so they would be able to fill a hockey game and not even come clsoe to breaking a sweat. Would be interesting to see how they can promote the Raptors given that 1) they don't have Vince Carter to promote and 2)They don't seem to have anyone left that can promote basketball.

quote:"The CSA has become a cheerleader for the MLS," Hartrell said. "If I sound bitter, well, I'm very bitter. For nine years, we've been putting money into this team and the CSA has supposedly been behind us in terms of playing in a new stadium. And now it's: 'By the way, we're getting another tenant who's going to be your competition.' "

Can tell much about how the CSA has conducted itself in the Lynx/MLS issue. One point we see the CSA supporting MLS in Toronto without any consideration for the Lynx. Now, it seems that the positions are almost turned on it's head. Seems the CSA feels that it might have a major role in running the MLS franchise, if it ever comes to Toronto.

quote:"No one's had the marketing clout, the leverage and, frankly, the sophistication of Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment," Peddie said. "Extensive market research points to the fact that there is a real appetite for this in the (Toronto) market. That encourages us.

"We also know, with the diversity in this city, the way it's growing, the people who come to Toronto generally like soccer first and basketball second."

That's all fine and good, Hartrell said. But there is one problem. Traditionally, soccer diehards in Toronto support teams from the "old country" -- top club teams in the English, Italian leagues, etc.

Hartrell wins this argument quite handily. Immigrants will generally keep thier alligances to clubs in the old country and that won't generally be broken until later generations.

Should be noted that Immigrants will end up gravitating towards to sports as they integrate into society. Baskeball because it's a sport that they can relate to in both the old and new countires. Hockey because supporting it would make it the best way when it comes to integration.

Peddie should also serious listen to Joey Saputo when it comes to selling a team to the market.

quote:Pipe believes a higher level of pro soccer in this country ultimately would aid the national men's team, giving top level Canadian players a chance to play at home for some decent money. While USL players make around $25,000 per season, MLS players can make three or four times that

There would certainly be a good number of people in this country who would love to make $25K/year in regualr work. MLS players who will get that six figure are guys who've been around long enough and bring some pedigree. Players on an expansion team would be young and playing for chump change. That is if they would be wiling to sign on to play for an MLS team in the first place.

quote:But Hartrell doesn't buy into that theory, believing it delusional that one MLS team in Canada ultimately would raise the level of the national team. He said Canada's best players, such as Paul Stalteri (who plays in Germany for Werder Bremen) and Tomasz Radzinski (Fulham in England), will continue to play in Europe where the money is vastly superior to what the MLS can pay.

It's not just the issue of money but also the issue of level of play and opprotunities. OO's case shows that the money and opprotunities playing for a mid-sized Norwegian team are far better than playing for an MLS team that's drapped in a Canadian flag. Player that are over in Europe will no doubt try and play their carrers out in Europe and they would be of little use for the CSA or MLS in that matter.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Elias

How so. The Lynx could put an end to this debate very easily. Now that the argos are out, what better opportunity could there be for them to step in and fill the void. If he ( Bruno)puts up the money ( like Saputo did), then they could call the shots. But we know that won't happen. Why? the answered to that question is the same answer to the question of why the MLS/MLSE is the better option for pro soccer in Toronto.

Also, as of this moment, the CSA has contributed more to this project than the Hartrells, who haven't put in a cent. Therefore, who should have a greater say in how the facility should be used, The CSA or the Lynx?. Just what is it that the CSA owes the Hartrells?

[RealGooner]

Correct-o Free Kick. They have hardly tried to build a competitive team; they can't be relied on to help build a new stadium. CSA and MLSE owe them nothing. I hate the Hartrells' sense of entitlement, as if the people of Toronto owe the Lynx their support. Bruno, you tried to the best of your limited abilities to keep soccer alive in this city, thank-you for that. Now dont stand in the way of someone who has more vision and resources to do it better. This is why the US is always at the cutting edge of sports and business - their system allows the fittest and bravest to thrive while we in Canada hold each other back whilst wallowing in risk-averse mediocrity. For all their faults give the CSA credit for making an American-style gamble on a stadium and the WYC. How typically Canadian to to criticise them for trying to do better, just because they're the CSA.

[Richard]

I have little doubt that the Lynx/Hartrells were approached to join the stadium consortium - why would they not be, the group needs all the contributing partners it can get and MLSE is not on board? Clearly the Hartrells declined to participate and by not saying anything about it and making no references to them that might now embarrass them, the CSA is behaving in a classy manner.

[Elias]

Doyle, please tell me you are just trying to stir $hit up and don't actually believe what you posted.

About selling tickets, I think Peddie answered that. Worse-case they can name the soccer team, Maple Leafs. It's not like any of these dumb Torontonians would know the difference:

"Hey Ricky, those new nets are really big!"

"Yeah man, and did you see the new Fox puck? It's white."

"That's why they painted the ice green!"

About immigrants, we are in the "later generations", especially in the "older" ethnic communities like Italians, Greeks, etc. The 2nd generation Canadians (meaning their parents were born in Canada, the grandparents are off the boat), are hitting their 20's.

And immigrants will watch the NBA because "it's a sport that they can relate to in both the old and new countries", but not soccer?

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

How so. The Lynx could put an end to this debate very easily. Now that the argos are out, what better opportunity could there be for them to step in and fill the void. If he ( Bruno)puts up the money ( like Saputo did), then they could call the shots. But we know that won't happen. Why? the answered to that question is the same answer to the question of why the MLS/MLSE is the better option for pro soccer in Toronto.

Also, as of this moment, the CSA has contributed more to this project than the Hartrells, who haven't put in a cent. Therefore, who should have a greater say in how the facility should be used, The CSA or the Lynx?. Just what is it that the CSA owes the Hartrells?

Lets say the stadium gets built, but for whatever reason, there is no MLS team in Toronto. What then? The CSA is going to turn around and say, "Well, the Lynx are good quality soccer that we should all get out there and support"? I guess the good thing is that nobody outside a couple internet forums pays attention to the CSA and the Lynx.

It's just about image and the fact that the CSA doesn't really have many bridges to burn. The fact is the Hartrells have kept the team afloat for a decade now, and deserve at least a token acknowledgement, cause at the end of the day, having the Lynx is better than nothing. Not by much, but it is better.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Elias

The fact is the Hartrells have kept the team afloat for a decade now, and deserve at least a token acknowledgement, cause at the end of the day, having the Lynx is better than nothing. Not by much, but it is better.

There is no one ( including the CSA) who has ever disputed that. But does that mean that we should working to keep out the MLS or derail the plans of more prominant investors to upgrade the pro soccer situation in Toronto?. That is what is happening here.

Sheez, thats like saying, no we don't want major league baseball in Toronto because it would hurt or be a slap in face of the triple "A" operation that is already in place. Speaking of which did we ever hear of these kind of objections when a new pro teams ever came to any city?

[FC Beast]

quote:Originally posted by Elias

Doyle, please tell me you are just trying to stir $hit up and don't actually believe what you posted.

About selling tickets, I think Peddie answered that. Worse-case they can name the soccer team, Maple Leafs. It's not like any of these dumb Torontonians would know the difference:

"Hey Ricky, those new nets are really big!"

"Yeah man, and did you see the new Fox puck? It's white."

"That's why they painted the ice green!"

About immigrants, we are in the "later generations", especially in the "older" ethnic communities like Italians, Greeks, etc. The 2nd generation Canadians (meaning their parents were born in Canada, the grandparents are off the boat), are hitting their 20's.

And immigrants will watch the NBA because "it's a sport that they can relate to in both the old and new countries", but not soccer?

Lets say the stadium gets built, but for whatever reason, there is no MLS team in Toronto. What then? The CSA is going to turn around and say, "Well, the Lynx are good quality soccer that we should all get out there and support"? I guess the good thing is that nobody outside a couple internet forums pays attention to the CSA and the Lynx.

It's just about image and the fact that the CSA doesn't really have many bridges to burn. The fact is the Hartrells have kept the team afloat for a decade now, and deserve at least a token acknowledgement, cause at the end of the day, having the Lynx is better than nothing. Not by much, but it is better.

having the Lynx is better than nothing? Sorry to disagree,but the

LYNX don't exsist on the Toronto sports map. The Toronto sun had

a poll result result on pro soccer in toronto. 24% said they have seen a pro game in Toronto. 44% said no they have not. And 32% said what Toronto Team? So there you go the Lynx are not even known in

their home town. The Hartrells are doing a samshing job of promoting

the LYNX[xx(]