canso Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 Holger was fired because the players didn't like his methods/tactics. Frank was brought in to restore the depth in the player pool and get the team motivated to play bright, attacking soccer. Consider the players Frank has brought back that Holger would not have picked had he been in charge: Onstad Watson Bircham Radzinski Pesch Menezes and his "discoveries" that Holger would have ignored: Serioux Pizzolito Simpson Peeters Gervais Then look at the players that Frank ignored that Holger would have played: Hirschfeld Bent Nsaliwa Pozniak Canizales Oppong Klukowski Hutchinson It's all hypothetical, but here's the discussion point: The teutonic 3-5-2 with a younger and faster back line might have had a better result against Guatemala, but likely not been good enough to get into the next round due to bad morale and lack of goals. Frank faltered in his first real game, but his more experienced team will have a better chance of succeeding in the qualifying tournament because they want to play for the coach and they will be happier and more motivated and score lots more goals. That's what I was led to believe anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew W Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 I believe Radzinski returned to the fold before Holger was fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachesl Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Andrew W I believe Radzinski returned to the fold before Holger was fired. No, it was after Holger resigned. Radzinski never played in the Gold Cup last year, nor in 2000 & 2002. Radzinski returned to play in the friendlies in Europe last fall after Holger resigned, when the team was coached intermiitenly by Mitchell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ed Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 You are wrong. Radzinski played against both Switzerland and Scotland under Holger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarrek Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 And he also played in the game versus Malta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ref Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 quote:Originally posted by canso Holger was fired because the players didn't like his methods/tactics. Frank was brought in to restore the depth in the player pool and get the team motivated to play bright, attacking soccer. Consider the players Frank has brought back that Holger would not have picked had he been in charge: Onstad Watson Bircham Radzinski Pesch Menezes and his "discoveries" that Holger would have ignored: Serioux Pizzolito Simpson Peeters Gervais Then look at the players that Frank ignored that Holger would have played: Hirschfeld Bent Nsaliwa Pozniak Canizales Oppong Klukowski Hutchinson It's all hypothetical, but here's the discussion point: The teutonic 3-5-2 with a younger and faster back line might have had a better result against Guatemala, but likely not been good enough to get into the next round due to bad morale and lack of goals. Frank faltered in his first real game, but his more experienced team will have a better chance of succeeding in the qualifying tournament because they want to play for the coach and they will be happier and more motivated and score lots more goals. That's what I was led to believe anyways. Great posting Canso. Looking at those three lists of players it is very revealing as to how two different coaches can think so different when the objective is the same. Your last phrase says about having a better chance because the players want to play for the coach (Yallop). This may not be quite right, let us not forget that the great majority of these lads play for Euro clubs who have highly qualified and experienced professional coaches. Yallop will fall far behind any of them. So players naturally compare Yallop's coaching to that of their own Club, surely they can be very enthusiastic and motivated to play for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nolando Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 To be fair to Holger, Frank has a HECK of a lot more to work with. Holger rarely had any legitimate supersubs on the bench, nor did he ever leave off incredibly talented players only because we had other incredibly talented players ready ahead of them. Sure, he locked horns and scared off a few players, but the current crop of players showing up under Frank's regime are superior to anything we've seen in years and years. He rightfully "discovered" Simpson, Peters, and Serioux, but others like Occean and a lot of the talented youngsters have in effect forced their own discovery. Who's the better coach? Ask me in November. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Georgio Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 A couple other players Frank has ignored are Richard Hastings and Paul Fenwick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loyola Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 It seems that everyone has forget that before the 2003 Gold Cup in Boston, Pat Onstad was set to start for Canada in goal.....he was the #1 according to Holger. Only a back injury let Hirsh started and shine against Costa Rica. So it seems that it's been more than a year since Hirsh is being consider as a back up or third keeper for Canada by Yallop and Osieck. Hirsh did start against Ireland and the Czech but it was Miller selection and if I'm correct I think that Onstad was still in the MLS playofs at that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 Good topic. I have been meaning to post something similar. the differences: First of all it was Osieck who brought Rad back into the fold not Yallop. The players: Osieck favoured but have been ignored or seen reduced action by Yallop include: Brennan, Nsaliwa, Pozniak, Canizales, Menezies, Hastings, Fenwick, Hirshfeld. Yallop favoured but were not fancied to the same extent as Osieck: A-leaguers ( seriuox, Gervais, Sutton), Simpson, Hume, Pesch, Watson, Bircham, Bernier. Occean was a good pickup but he was unknown and still in college when Holger was around. Pizzolitto was selected once by both coaches ( ie.: versus germany and versus Gautemala). There were definitley questionable selections among Holger Osieck's choices but on the other hand I have not seen anything among the ultra young players that Yallop has selected that impress me more than what I saw from Canizales. Also, aside from Bircham, I have not seen anything from Watson and Pesch to suggest that Oscieck was wrong in deciding to exclude them. Nor do I have any evidence to suggest that Nsaliwa doesn't have a place on this squad judging from what I saw Wednesday. Granted, I don't rate him as higher as some others here, but I can't think of him ever having a very poor game. Style & Personality: The clear difference is that Holger Osieck was much more conservative in his selections, choosing mainly the same euro based players and ignoring domestic players. Whereas Frank Yallop was very agressive and confident in A-leaguers. Performance Evaluation:Holger was also very tentavive and perhaps slow to make changes. Stuck with Corrazin way too long and and made change in 2000 by introducing Imhof only in the 5th game, when we were already eliminated. I'll give yallop an edge in this area. Discipline: Remember the corner flag incident in 1997. Well I cannot recall of Canada ever having a player sent off when Oscieck was coaching. Aside from himself when he got red carded in the 2000 Gold cup final. But already under Yallop we have seen Hume have to miss a game for two undeciplined and avoidable yellows in one game. Edge Oscieck Preparation: Holger Ocieck got alot of friendlies but did not use them to full advantage to test and evaluate new players. Frank Yallop got fewer freindlies but made radical changes. Even Tactical: Yallop has switched to a 4-4-2 or simlar system and employs two very offensive minded players in the outside midfield whereas Holger played more of a 3-5-2 employing more defensive minded or "two way" players ( brennan and Imhof ) in that role. Much more european. While the attack minded wingers ( DD and Hume/Simpson) is more stereo-typically British. In the earlier days of Holger , I thought we did a better job of controlling the midfield and looked more organized but made more blunders on defense as a result poor technical abilities. But, against Latin americn opposition, I fear that we may miss that 3-5-2 and we are giving them alot space and they like to organize using the centre of the pitch. When you think about, we lost 2-0 ( one was a Fenwick own goal) to mexico in azteca with weaker talent than what we have now. But with better talent we lose to Guatemala at home by the same score. So far, I have to give Osieck the edge here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Georgio Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 Nsaliwa should be there, he would be great as a right back (he's a fast and steady man marker with poise playing balls out of the back) and would free up Stalteri to play in the midfield with Serioux or Deguzman or both in a 3-5-2. Stalteri could be our engine in midfield. I am sick and tired of Watson. He is in what I would descibe as one of the two most important roles on the pitch in WCQ where you are meeting teams in which you are unfimiliar with there offensive capabilities and can not afford mistakes. We must build everything around a solid defense (our foundation before moving forward) because we have never played these teams. We can not have A-Leaguers in that role. Bring back Menezes! Bring in Klukowski, bring in Reda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachesl Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 I forget. Can someone please tell me why Radzinski did not play in Gold Cup 2003, after he earlier returned to play in the friendlies beforehand (except for the Germany one)? Official and unofficial versions both appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJT Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 Radzinski got injured in March and missed the last 8 games of the EPL season, the friendly against Germany, and the Gold Cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ed Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 Free Kick, I must be missing something. You are giving Yallop the nod on performance based on what exactly? Beating up on the grocery delivery boys from Belize??? Having our nuts kicked by Guatemala at home. Or the 1-0 win over whoever it was in May??? I am hopeful for Frank to get the team together, but nobody can say his performance with the men's team is better than Holger's yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJT Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 We lost 1-0 in May, to Wales. Our B team beat Barbados 1-0 in January. I agree with your last comment, Ed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soccerbeast Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 quote:Originally posted by canso Holger was fired because the players didn't like his methods/tactics. Frank was brought in to restore the depth in the player pool and get the team motivated to play bright, attacking soccer. Consider the players Frank has brought back that Holger would not have picked had he been in charge: Onstad Watson Bircham Radzinski Pesch Menezes and his "discoveries" that Holger would have ignored: Serioux Pizzolito Simpson Peeters Gervais Then look at the players that Frank ignored that Holger would have played: Hirschfeld Bent Nsaliwa Pozniak Canizales Oppong Klukowski Hutchinson It's all hypothetical, but here's the discussion point: The teutonic 3-5-2 with a younger and faster back line might have had a better result against Guatemala, but likely not been good enough to get into the next round due to bad morale and lack of goals. Frank faltered in his first real game, but his more experienced team will have a better chance of succeeding in the qualifying tournament because they want to play for the coach and they will be happier and more motivated and score lots more goals. That's what I was led to believe anyways. Frank brought back? Onstad............waste of time, poor keeper Watson............too old / slow Bircham...........needs more games Radzinski.........not commited to Canada, could have been with team instead of faking injury at Fulham, dump him now along with Yallop Pesch.............believes in his own press clippings too much Meneses.............?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashton Gate Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 One Concacaf WC loss at home is unfortunate, two losses will seem like carelessness. However, if Jason Devos is fit for Honduras it will be a gross error of judgement on Yallops part to give the captaincy to Pat Onstad. Furthermore, we as Canadians (FIFA#96) should have a nagging worry that the coach (Osieck) that was ousted by player power was immediately wanted by the country that finished runners up in the World Cup 2002. Unless Yallop leads Canada to the quarter finals in Germany 2006, its highly unlikely he'll get a call from the English FA, no matter how many FA secretaries Eriksson beds in the meantime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 Wow. How can we even start to compare the two coaches at this point? Holger had five years to fail. It seems that everyone on this board gave Yallop seven months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashton Gate Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 I am sure that the tone will change if Canada stuffs two early goals (DeVos from a corner and Stalteri from 25 yards in an early Fall swirling wind) past Honduras in Edmonton and hangs on for the win. I think the reason why people are all over Yallop is because Canada were so poorly organised defensively against Guatemala. If that changes against Honduras I am sure Yallop will go from zero to hero in a hurry. Remember Canada will have the rabid hordes from Edmonton in their corner on September 4th. And DeVos WILL score the first goal!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante79 Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 Holger should of been fired after the teams elemination from the 2002 WC! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Dante79 Holger should of been fired after the teams elemination from the 2002 WC! Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timotas Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 quote: Frank brought back? Onstad............waste of time, poor keeper Watson............too old / slow Bircham...........needs more games Radzinski.........not commited to Canada, could have been with team instead of faking injury at Fulham, dump him now along with Yallop Pesch.............believes in his own press clippings too much Meneses.............?? Dump Radzinski? Uh, can you please tell me who will score our goals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Timotas Dump Radzinski? Uh, can you please tell me who will score our goals? Nah man, it's easier to post knee-jerk reactions rather than provide solutions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Ed You are giving Yallop the nod on performance based on what exactly? Beating up on the grocery delivery boys from Belize??? Having our nuts kicked by Guatemala at home. Or the 1-0 win over whoever it was in May??? But where did I give Yallop the nod for anything. except for the fact that he likes to look at more people. quote:Originally posted by Ed I am hopeful for Frank to get the team together, but nobody can say his performance with the men's team is better than Holger's yet. Absolutely. I never said but nobody can say his performance with the men's team is better than Holger's yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ref Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Dante79 Holger should of been fired after the teams elemination from the 2002 WC! Agree. I remember saying that at the time, but there were many who wanted to give him another chance. Let us hope that the CSA will ask Frank for his resignation after we fail to qualify this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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