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Kent

Full CONCACAF Club Index

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Here is my full CONCACAF Club Index table. This is a sorted list of all CCL/CL slot scores. I will try to keep this original post updated as results happen (within reason) in CONCACAF League and CONCACAF Champions League, at least until CONCACAF puts up this kind of info live on their website.

Slot 2014-15 2015-16 2016-17 2017-18 2018-19 2019-20 Club Index  
MEX3 32 23 15 17 26   113 CCL Pot 1
MEX2 16 20 30 25 21   112  
MEX1 11 33 27 12 20   103  
CAN1 23 8 22 21 5   79  
USA3 13 16 20 17 11   77  
USA4 20 16 8 5 11   60  
USA1 11 14 11 11 11   58  
USA2 9 13 14 7 15   58  
PAN1 4 10 20 8 12 5 55 CCL Pot 2
MEX4 9 18 10 9 4   50  
PAN2 8 10 8 13 8.5 6.5 46 CL Pot 3
HON1 15 10 11 5 4 6.5 36.5  
CRC2 18 9 14 5 3 4 35  
SLV2 5 6 5 11.5 5 7.5 35  
CRC1 12 10 8 5 7 4.5 34.5  
CRC3 23 0 0 2 19.5 12 33.5  
SLV1 4 7 9 7 5 5 33  
HON2 8 11 11 2 3 5.5 32.5  
PAN3 0 0 0 11 15 2 28 CL Pot 4
CRC4 0 0 0 22.5 5   27.5  
SLV3 0 0 0 8.5 6.5 12 27 CL Pot 1
HON3 0 0 0 2 21.5 3 26.5  
CCC1 4 8 5 4 4   25  
PAN4 0 0 0 8.5 16   24.5  
GUA1 11 8 9 0 4 3 24  
CCC3 4 5 4 5 5.5 4 23.5  
NCA1 6 4 6 5 5.5 3 23.5 CL Pot 2
CCC2 10 7 5 2 5 4.5 23.5  
HON4 0 0 0 20.5 0   20.5  
BLZ1 0 8 4 2 2 2 18  
GUA2 8 8 6 0 0 3 17  
NCA2 0 0 0 9.5 2 5 16.5  
CCC4 0 0 0 2 5 5.5 12.5 Out
SCL1 0 0 0 5 7   12  
GUA3           11 11  
CAN2           9.5 9.5  

 

Notes about the table:

1. The orange numbers are points gained in CONCACAF League. The black numbers were gained in CONCACAF Champions League.

2. The new format for CCL and CL has made my method of having lines to show the different levels more complicated, so I've added a column. The first row for each section shows what competition and pot teams would be drawn into if they strictly went by Club Index. Don't let the pot numbers confuse you, CL Pot 3 and 4 are actually better than CL Pot 1 and 2, because 1 and 2 are for the preliminary round. Below the red line the teams would be out of continental competition.

3. Starting from the 2017-18 column and moving forward, CONCACAF League points are from the first year (Ex: 2017) and CCL points are from the second year (Ex: 2018).

4. The Club Index is the total points from the last 5 years.

5. Legend: BLZ (Belize), CAN (Canada), CCC (Caribbean), CRC (Costa Rica), GUA (Guatemala), HON (Honduras), MEX (Mexico), NCA (Nicaragua), PAN (Panama), SCL (CONCACAF League champions), SLV (El Salvador), USA (United States) 

Edited by Kent

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I've been thinking about rules for relegating slots out of the rotation, and for new slots to appear in the rotation. Here's what I've come up with in terms of potential rules for how they could do this using the club index. Whenever I mention countries I am counting all of the Caribbean as a country, and not considering the CONCACAF League champions as a country.

1. Each country has a minimum of 1 slot and a maximum of 4 slots in total (combined CCL and CL).

2. At the end of each year, the lowest ranked slot in the CONCACAF League gets bumped out of the competition.

3. A new slot is awarded to the nation who has fewer than 4 slots and has the highest average club index for it's existing slots.

4. New slots cannot be relegated out of CONCACAF League until they have had 5 consecutive seasons in continental competitions (to give them a meaningful Club Index).

5. Promotion/relegation between CCL and CL is strictly based on the Club Index, so there could be some years where there is no pro/rel, and there could be years where there are multiple slots promoted/relegated to/from CCL. The CONCACAF League champions slot never gets relegated from CCL.

Any thoughts? Suggestions for a better system? Here is the table for national averages.

Country Number of slots Average
MEX 4 94.5
USA 4 63.25
CAN 2 40.5
PAN 4 36.5
CRC 4 29
HON 4 26.75
SLV 3 25.5
CCC 4 19.125
NCA 2 18
BLZ 1 18
GUA 3 13.66666667

 

When a country (Ex: Canada) gets a new slot because they have the highest average, their average will then drop because there will be a new slot (ex: CAN2) that doesn't have any Club Index data (or at least it would be low because it would have been a slot that was relegated and didn't play for at least a year). This helps give other countries a chance at getting an additional slot

.

Edited by Kent

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I've updated the OP with this week's results. I will keep editing the OP with updated numbers as the matches happen, but I think I won't bother posting a comment letting people know until probably after the CONCACAF League campaign is over.

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Herediano (CRC3) won the CONCACAF League last night, which earns them a spot in the 2019 CONCACAF Champions League. I've updated the table in the original post with up to date numbers.

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I forgot about the national averages table. Here's the up to date version of that one.

Country Number of slots Average
MEX 4 99.25
CAN 1 84
USA 4 65.5
PAN 4 38.75
CRC 4 38
GUA 2 35
HON 4 32.75
SLV 3 27.5
NCA 1 26.5
CCC 3 26.16666667
BLZ 1 16

Panama leapfrogged Guatemala and Costa Rica, and Nicaragua surpassed the Caribbean.

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I'm not sure what to do with this. I was excited about CCL starting up but I don't know how or if they are going to use the club index anymore. Are there going to be SCL1 through SCL6 slots going forward? Or are the teams that advance to CCL going to have the slot they were using in CL get more points in CCL? If so, does that give them an advantage over the teams that skip out on CL in terms of aquiring points to get into Pot A? Are they even going to use the club index to pot teams in CCL and CL? And this last point isn't relevant for tonights games, but are there going to be points up for grabs in the preliminary round of CL?

I'll probably just update the table as is until there is some more clarity.

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I have updated with last nights results. I've also simplified it a little bit by removing columns that are no longer needed, points that CONCACAF doesn't recognize, and I've stopped putting SCL1 in the top 16. I haven't changed the placement of the lines yet to reflect the new format, but I suppose I'll probably do that at some point this week when I feel motivated enough to do it.

Worthy of mention, if Kansas City can knock off Toluca in the first round, the MEX4 spot could very well drop out of the top 8. I still don't know if these rankings will be used next year, but that would be something to have a Mexican team outside of Pot A!

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On 2/19/2019 at 11:50 AM, Kent said:

I'm not sure what to do with this. I was excited about CCL starting up but I don't know how or if they are going to use the club index anymore. Are there going to be SCL1 through SCL6 slots going forward? Or are the teams that advance to CCL going to have the slot they were using in CL get more points in CCL? If so, does that give them an advantage over the teams that skip out on CL in terms of aquiring points to get into Pot A? Are they even going to use the club index to pot teams in CCL and CL? And this last point isn't relevant for tonights games, but are there going to be points up for grabs in the preliminary round of CL?

I'll probably just update the table as is until there is some more clarity.

I don't really have much clarity to offer here, but from what I've seen elsewhere (incl. Wikipedia), I don't think you can really combine the tables like this. From what I've seen, the CCL only takes the ranking points from CCL play, whereas CL adds the points from both competitions together to determine the ranking (prior to this year's shakeup).

The points do break down a little bit in regards to which teams were pushed into the CL preliminary round, but I think they have another req that they built into it (this year at least). SLV2 was dropped down to the preliminary round, despite having more points than NCA1.

I think, moving forward, you may wish to "split" the table, adding in SCL2 - SCL6 with the CCL. I think these spots (and SCL1) will "maintain" their points, even as the individual year's points are transferred to the appropriate CL slot for their rankings. These slots don't exist in 2019, so they'd start at 0 for the 2020 CCL.

Personally, I find this table very valuable. It's unfortunate they didn't stick to it when expanding the CL.

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1 hour ago, Rintaran said:

I don't really have much clarity to offer here, but from what I've seen elsewhere (incl. Wikipedia), I don't think you can really combine the tables like this. From what I've seen, the CCL only takes the ranking points from CCL play, whereas CL adds the points from both competitions together to determine the ranking (prior to this year's shakeup).

The points do break down a little bit in regards to which teams were pushed into the CL preliminary round, but I think they have another req that they built into it (this year at least). SLV2 was dropped down to the preliminary round, despite having more points than NCA1.

I think, moving forward, you may wish to "split" the table, adding in SCL2 - SCL6 with the CCL. I think these spots (and SCL1) will "maintain" their points, even as the individual year's points are transferred to the appropriate CL slot for their rankings. These slots don't exist in 2019, so they'd start at 0 for the 2020 CCL.

Personally, I find this table very valuable. It's unfortunate they didn't stick to it when expanding the CL.

Finally some discussion! Glad someone is getting some value out of this.

As for combining the tables, and NCA1 being placed ahead of SLV2, and other such things, yeah I know. This is more of an exercise to see what is possible if CONCACAF got their act together and adapted a more UEFA style that determines how many spots each country gets, and seeding, based on results. So it's part informational, showing the real life points each slot has, and it's part fantasy, for what these tournaments could/should look like.

I seem to be in the minority on this site for thinking these numbers should be used for determining spots, since whenever I make comments about it there doesn't seem to be any traction and people tend to talk about having spots here and there gifted, and how it's not fair to take a spot away from another country, etc.

I saw in Wikipedia the SCL1 through 6 table. I'll add those if/when they will be useful. Right now, as you say, they would have 0 points, so it doesn't add any value, and we don't know for sure if they will actually do that, or if they will do something that actually rewards the countries that perform well in CCL via the SCL slots. Like, if CRC1 advances to CCL and wins the whole thing, maybe CRC1 should be given some credit instead of SCL3 or whatever slot they were using. We will see.

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1 minute ago, Kent said:

Finally some discussion! Glad someone is getting some value out of this.

As for combining the tables, and NCA1 being placed ahead of SLV2, and other such things, yeah I know. This is more of an exercise to see what is possible if CONCACAF got their act together and adapted a more UEFA style that determines how many spots each country gets, and seeding, based on results. So it's part informational, showing the real life points each slot has, and it's part fantasy, for what these tournaments could/should look like.

I seem to be in the minority on this site for thinking these numbers should be used for determining spots, since whenever I make comments about it there doesn't seem to be any traction and people tend to talk about having spots here and there gifted, and how it's not fair to take a spot away from another country, etc.

I saw in Wikipedia the SCL1 through 6 table. I'll add those if/when they will be useful. Right now, as you say, they would have 0 points, so it doesn't add any value, and we don't know for sure if they will actually do that, or if they will do something that actually rewards the countries that perform well in CCL via the SCL slots. Like, if CRC1 advances to CCL and wins the whole thing, maybe CRC1 should be given some credit instead of SCL3 or whatever slot they were using. We will see.

In your bottom example, SCL3 would receive credit for the CCL rankings (to determine that spots seeding in CCL), but CRC1 would also receive credit as part of their CL Rankings taking the points earned in both 2018 CL and 2019 CCL as a single-year's points. That would give CRC1 the appropriate seeding for CL, and help create the necessary hierarchy for this table.

I actually agree that a solid points system should be used for determining spots. That's one of the reasons why I think they should actually have cut all of Pot B from CCL and put them into CL and letting the full 8-spot float to top 8 in CL. Then, moving forward, it could always be whomever pointed-up to Pot A based on CCL points gets to skip the CL.

If you look in the "history" for the 2019 CL article on Wikipedia, someone did put together an extended table. It was removed because of the issue with SLV2 & NCA1, but I would not be surprised if it resurfaces at some point down the line. BLZ1 was the only "1" team that didn't get a bye past the preliminary round, so it there may be something there.

I use this same table (or one very similar) for determining my "temporary" elo for CCL and CL teams in my calculation for NSXI. Given the new year-round soccer format we'll be seeing though, I may have to make those elo-rankings sticky to the national slots for the non-CAN/USA sides.

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I don't think people are actively checking this, but just in case, I was slow updating with last weeks results because I was on vacation with no internet access last week. I've updated the table now. With Toluca losing both it's games the MEX4 slot is actually in 10th place, behind PAN1. They will hold their position though and won't fall below the green line since the teams remaining in the tournament are all ahead of that spot anyways.

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Posted (edited)

Just wanted to make note, although the table is not updated here at the moment, the results of the Sporting Kansas City vs Independiente 2nd leg, happening May March 14th, are hugely important.

PAN1 is already above MEX4.

Assuming Atlanta (USA1) loses their match tonight:

A draw puts PAN1 at 56 points, above both USA1 & USA2. Additionally USA1 would have the same CCL points as USA2 (55).

A victory pulls PAN1 to 58 points, just 2 points shy of USA4 (60).

Edited by Rintaran
typo. Need coffee.

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41 minutes ago, Big_M said:

SKC vs CAI is March 14

Yup. I need more coffee apparently.

Fixed it.

Still important for all reasons stated.

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4 hours ago, Rintaran said:

Just wanted to make note, although the table is not updated here at the moment, the results of the Sporting Kansas City vs Independiente 2nd leg, happening May March 14th, are hugely important.

PAN1 is already above MEX4.

Assuming Atlanta (USA1) loses their match tonight:

A draw puts PAN1 at 56 points, above both USA1 & USA2. Additionally USA1 would have the same CCL points as USA2 (55).

A victory pulls PAN1 to 58 points, just 2 points shy of USA4 (60).

Oops! I had thought it was up to date but I had managed to miss the March 6th games. Thanks for pointing it out! Corrected.

And yeah, I'm rooting for Independiente to expose the idiocy of the recent changes that strips the Central American teams of their direct CCL spots.

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Rintaran said:

Just wanted to make note, although the table is not updated here at the moment, the results of the Sporting Kansas City vs Independiente 2nd leg, happening May March 14th, are hugely important.

PAN1 is already above MEX4.

Assuming Atlanta (USA1) loses their match tonight:

A draw puts PAN1 at 56 points, above both USA1 & USA2. Additionally USA1 would have the same CCL points as USA2 (55).

A victory pulls PAN1 to 58 points, just 2 points shy of USA4 (60).

Whelp, Altanta really threw that out the window.

If PAN1 wins, they would now be tied with USA1 (58).

14 hours ago, Kent said:

Oops! I had thought it was up to date but I had managed to miss the March 6th games. Thanks for pointing it out! Corrected.

And yeah, I'm rooting for Independiente to expose the idiocy of the recent changes that strips the Central American teams of their direct CCL spots.

Yeah, they really should have just gone with the bottom-half of the table, porting all 8 of them over, including any Mexican and American teams. I really don't see why they should have 4 automatic top-level entries. Especially with how this year is playing out.

Fine, keep the CCC champion since they already have to win over a pretty large field, but sacrificing these automatic berths seems pretty low, as much as I want to see us have a 2nd.

Edited by Rintaran

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3 hours ago, Rintaran said:

Whelp, Altanta really threw that out the window.

If PAN1 wins, they would now be tied with USA1 (58).

Yeah, they really should have just gone with the bottom-half of the table, porting all 8 of them over, including any Mexican and American teams. I really don't see why they should have 4 automatic top-level entries. Especially with how this year is playing out.

Fine, keep the CCC champion since they already have to win over a pretty large field, but sacrificing these automatic berths seems pretty low, as much as I want to see us have a 2nd.

Personally I'd rather they have kept it like it was, with 15 teams auto qualified for CCL, and the 1 CL champion. The way it is now there are too few teams that go straight into CCL in my opinion, and letting the top 6 teams from CL in to CCL kind of cheapens the accomplishment of winning CL.

I also don't like the Caribbean champion going straight to CCL. It's leading them in to slaughter. This year the Caribbean champ got shut out 5-0 by NYRB over 2 legs. Last year they lost 7-0 over 2 legs to Chivas. The year before that when there was still a group stage and 3 Caribbean teams were in CCL, they had a combined record of 0 wins, 2 draws, 10 losses, with a -27 goal differential. I think it would be better for the Caribbean champ to go to CL which would be more at their level. And of course, even in CL it has been a struggle. In 2017 they had a combined 1 win and 5 losses with a goal difference of -9. 2018 went better with 3 wins and 5 losses, and a team progressed out of the first round. If and when their results in CL are good enough to move up to CCL, then fantastic, move them up. But I hate these placements that are baked into the rules.

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Posted (edited)

I'm getting excited for CPL's first crack at the CONCACAF League. I updated the original post with current numbers, including the 2 points given out to CONCACAF League participants for this year.

Hopefully Forge can get a few more points and the CAN2 spot can start to close the gap above them.

Edit: Now I've also updated the national averages table in the second post.

Edited by Kent

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Posted (edited)

With their win last night, NCA2 has surpassed GUA2.

Edit: I am assuming the scoring system is the same this year as it was last year, although this link seems to indicate otherwise. https://gallery.mailchimp.com/78d3589fb61466b549ff752e5/files/fac07123-6314-463c-88fa-2fe50d5118b7/19_SCL_Club_Index_ENG.pdf

However, I can see by the numbers in their table in that link that last year used the same method for CONCACAF League that I am using. The easiest way to see that the scoring system they used last year is different from what they are showing for this year (which appears to be the CCL system, not the SCL system) is that there are half points.

Edited by Kent

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I have updated with last night's results. CRC3 passed PAN4, CCC1, HON3 with their win. They moved from being in the CONCACAF League Pot 1 to CONCACAF League Pot 4, which would allow them to skip the preliminary round next year.

Tonight Forge gets their first crack at making up some ground in the index. Really looking forward to the game. Hopefully they can get a milestone win!

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On 7/31/2019 at 9:15 AM, Kent said:

With their win last night, NCA2 has surpassed GUA2.

Edit: I am assuming the scoring system is the same this year as it was last year, although this link seems to indicate otherwise. https://gallery.mailchimp.com/78d3589fb61466b549ff752e5/files/fac07123-6314-463c-88fa-2fe50d5118b7/19_SCL_Club_Index_ENG.pdf

However, I can see by the numbers in their table in that link that last year used the same method for CONCACAF League that I am using. The easiest way to see that the scoring system they used last year is different from what they are showing for this year (which appears to be the CCL system, not the SCL system) is that there are half points.

I think they may have changed how they're doing the scoring moving forward, to make a more consistent system between the two leagues (and get rid of half-points). So all previous scores remain unchanged, but the amount of points granted from here on out reflect the new system (until they change it again).

That said, it's also not 100% clear if those in the preliminary round count as participating in the tournament. It's possible there are 0 points for the prelimns.

Unfortunately, we can't really know for sure until CONCACAF issues an updated table, which I don't think will happen until the CCL or even the next SCL.

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32 minutes ago, Rintaran said:

I think they may have changed how they're doing the scoring moving forward, to make a more consistent system between the two leagues (and get rid of half-points). So all previous scores remain unchanged, but the amount of points granted from here on out reflect the new system (until they change it again).

That said, it's also not 100% clear if those in the preliminary round count as participating in the tournament. It's possible there are 0 points for the prelimns.

Unfortunately, we can't really know for sure until CONCACAF issues an updated table, which I don't think will happen until the CCL or even the next SCL.

Yeah, I was wondering about that. I hope these prelims get points, but if it does and the scoring system is the same for both competitions, that means you would get more points for running the table in SCL starting from the prelim stage than if you run the table in the CCL.

It's all very murky, and as you say, you only really cross your fingers and see what they post in a year. As much as I like tracking this stuff, I wish they just had an up to date table on their website.

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Updated the OP with last night's scores. SLV3 passed BLZ1 with their win last night. GUA3 and CAN2 (Yay Forge!) won their first ever continental games so they stay tied in last place in the table, but gain ground on the field.

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Posted (edited)

Updated the OP with Tuesday's and Wednesday's scores.

SLV2 passed SLV1, CRC1, and HON1 into a tie with CRC2.

CRC3 passed CRC4, PAN3, and HON2 into a tie with SLV1. Moved from SCL Pot 4 to SCL Pot 3 (the top pot in SCL).

CCC3 passed NCA1 and GUA1.

The last 2 games of the preliminary round are tonight. The bottom 2 teams by index are each playing, so we will see if CAN2 can surpass, keep pace, or fall behind GUA3. Go Forge!

P.S. I've stuck with the old style scoring with half points for advancing. I'm going to stick with that until I get better confirmation on what the system is, in particular the question of the preliminary round.

Edited by Kent

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Posted (edited)

Updated the OP with the first 2 matches from tonight.

GUA2 passed NCA2.

SLV3 passed HON4, CCC2, NCA1, and GUA1 to move into a tie with CCC3 and moved from CL Pot 2 to CL Pot 1 (the third highest pot).

And the reason why I couldn't wait for the third match of the night, Forge moves on! CAN2 moved from tied in last place to second last place, ahead of GUA3, at least for the moment. Their game is going on right now.

Note: I was finally drunk enough (Yay Forge!) while updating this post to realize that I've been copying in the Country column, which is totally unnecessary here, so I've removed it from the OP.

Edited by Kent
I missed a C in CCC3

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