ironcub14 Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 First, thanks for the kind thoughts but as Greater Victoria has a population of app. 350,000 I am not sure we are the best candidate for an NASL spot. Second, I find you comment on kick-off interesting. We get much better attendances with a Saturday, 7:00 pm kick-off than any other time. It becomes part of a night out and you can still go kayaking, hiking, whatever on summer afternoons. (Competition is not just other spectator sports.) As well it improves the stadium revenue as people are more likely to eat and drink than if we play mid-afternoon (ie. 2:00 pm kickoff). Ouch! Maybe I need to revise my estimate above. Victoria could draw an average higher than that for NASL. I've lived in Vancouver and Victoria, I could easily agree with you on your 2nd point In B.C., especially, I can imagine better attendances in the weekend evenings, because everybody is out doing outdoor activities during the afternoons. It's not really like that in Ontario though, lol! I do see the populations of the CMAs in Canada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_census_metropolitan_areas_and_agglomerations_in_Canada), and I see Victoria is far down the list, at 15th. However, with the nice climate, lack of other major sports teams, and soccer-friendly population, I think Victoria would have just as good of a chance in succeeding in the NASL as any of the Canadian CMAs ranked 4th to 14th. I'll keep it in my list! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboAl Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Interesting discussion on attendances here. I'm personally a little disappointed with the crowds so far although 2,500 or so is about what I had expected. If talking to people I know in the city are anything to go by, people are complaining about 1) the coolish, windy weather (wait til October), 2) the poor condition of the pitch (that complaint only rings true for soccer knowledgable people who have actually watched a game so far this season) and 3) the usual...too busy with other stuff. The kick off time is not an issue in this case. Could any other Canadian city draw better than the Fury under similar circumstances? I don't know about Victoria or Calgary or any larger metro area, but I'd like to think: yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fussball_eh Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Interesting discussion on attendances here. I'm personally a little disappointed with the crowds so far although 2,500 or so is about what I had expected. If talking to people I know in the city are anything to go by, people are complaining about 1) the coolish, windy weather (wait til October), 2) the poor condition of the pitch (that complaint only rings true for soccer knowledgable people who have actually watched a game so far this season) and 3) the usual...too busy with other stuff. The kick off time is not an issue in this case. Could any other Canadian city draw better than the Fury under similar circumstances? I don't know about Victoria or Calgary or any larger metro area, but I'd like to think: yes. In my view you're missing two crucial points. 1) Ticket Prices and 2) people want to wait till the team plays at Lansdowne (only applies to Ottawa). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboAl Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 In my view you're missing two crucial points. 1) Ticket Prices and 2) people want to wait till the team plays at Lansdowne (only applies to Ottawa). I haven't heard about the ticket price complaint; but it wouldn't surprise me if it was out there. What boggles my mind about the business model in the NASL is how you can travel (by air) all over the US & Canada, stay at hotels for a few nights, pay salaries, not charge $50 a ticket and still not lose your shirt. But maybe that's another discussion for another thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingback6 Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Just gonna point out that we had about as many people at the Women's game as for a Bomber home game... late season... if we're probably out of the play offs, but still. Soccer is huge in Winnipeg. Some of my friends and I were even reminiscing about the old Wpg Fury days. Hockey is still the main draw. But in terms of competition, the Goldeye's season proper doesn't begin until the end of the month... If it was talked up enough, it could do well here. John Scouras holds 2000, and could be expanded to probably 5000 at very little cost. There is always the stadium, as well. The issue here isn't support or facilities, it is finding an owner, or ownership group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonovision Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Just gonna point out that we had about as many people at the Women's game as for a Bomber home game... late season... if we're probably out of the play offs, but still. Soccer is huge in Winnipeg. Some of my friends and I were even reminiscing about the old Wpg Fury days. Hockey is still the main draw. But in terms of competition, the Goldeye's season proper doesn't begin until the end of the month... If it was talked up enough, it could do well here. John Scouras holds 2000, and could be expanded to probably 5000 at very little cost. There is always the stadium, as well. The issue here isn't support or facilities, it is finding an owner, or ownership group. I'm not ready to conclude that coming out to support a one-off against the US equates to support for a pro team. Just look at Edmonton's fairly recent history of fantastic support (U19 WWC) and also failures of a number of local pro sides. Winnipeg produces decent and reliably pro-Canada crowds any time a national team event is held here in any sport. We should make use of this in upcoming MNT WCQs. That said, I think Winnipeg would be a good fit in NASL, offering "regional" rivals for both Edmonton and Minnesota, and an extra shorter trip for both (direct flights are plentiful to both cities). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigzTFC Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 I would interested to know which of you have watched FCE and the Fury either at the game or online. I signed up for NASL live and I have to say the sightlines, pitch and stadiums for the two clubs are so far below professional standards it is painful. It impacts their ability to play a technical game and it really takes away from the overall brand. IMO if a team enters the league it needs to launch in a new facility from day one. All our MLS teams are great examples of how new facilties really shape the expectations of the fans. As for expansion, I've always thought a bunch of little stadiums like this one could make the difference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morrison_Stadium Built of $15 million. Easy expanded for more seating. 6K seating. This would be my starting point for a Halifax or Victoria stadium Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironcub14 Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 I watch the Fury both at the stadiums when I can and on NASL Live, and I've watched a couple Eddies games on NASL Live as well. I wholeheartedly agree that stadiums play a huge factor on and off the field, and that our refurbished stadium should have been ready for the Spring season, instead of the Fall season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironcub14 Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 I would assume almost everybody in this thread has watched Fury/Eddies at least once live, on TV or on a crummy CSA feed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Bob Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 I have watched many, many FC Edmonton games and a smaller number of Fury games. Somehow my brain hasn't exploded from the unbelievable horrifyingness I'm told must be there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fussball_eh Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 yeah it was horrifically bad. I mean to be fair the entire league NASL (with a few exceptions) is just horrible to watch. But it is my duty, as an Ottawa Fury supporter, to go through this painful process Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigzTFC Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 For those who have NASL Live, humor me and watch the FC vs. Indy 11 game. That was about as good as any MLS game that I have watched over the last 8 years. Another factor that isn't talked about with regards to NASL is MLS upcoming collective bargaining agreement. While most of us assume that the league minimum and cap will go up, we haven't really thought about the effect on NASL. Not all the good cheap players in MLS will get raises. A lot of them will be replaced with foreign nationals and MLS will become less of a developmental league. Most teams won't be as patient to develop a Graham Zusi/Kyle Bekker over 3-4 years. I really think NASL should be forgiven for its current state but the league should require higher standards for newer markets and push older markets for better stadia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Bob Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 There's no doubt some teams have better production values and stadia than others. There's also no doubt that Edmonton and Ottawa are two of the worst. But I don't think that implies "we need higher standards before we even let these teams into professional soccer". There simply isn't that much money interested. The Faths are already losing bundles bankrolling FC Edmonton. What would have happened if the CSA said "before you even kick a ball, you need to get a $20 million stadium, and you better double your TV budget." There'd be no FC Edmonton. How would that be better than having to endure the occasional crappy camera angle and needing the ability to distinguish white lines from yellow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fussball_eh Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 There's no doubt some teams have better production values and stadia than others. There's also no doubt that Edmonton and Ottawa are two of the worst. But I don't think that implies "we need higher standards before we even let these teams into professional soccer". There simply isn't that much money interested. The Faths are already losing bundles bankrolling FC Edmonton. What would have happened if the CSA said "before you even kick a ball, you need to get a $20 million stadium, and you better double your TV budget." There'd be no FC Edmonton. How would that be better than having to endure the occasional crappy camera angle and needing the ability to distinguish white lines from yellow? I agree 100%. But boy can I not wait to move to Landsdowne! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigzTFC Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 I think the idea of professionalism before you go pro is essential moving forward. When FCE came in it was when the NASL started. However, Ottawa is coming in with a delayed new stadium. I don't think they will capture the excitement of launching the team with a new stadium. That totally correlates to the brand perception and the amount of season tickets holders and game day revenue you can generate. They should have delayed the team by a year. Other markets potentially going into NASL will have new facilities - Hamilton and Winnipeg. And those will succeed from the gate. 4 things are important to me from a fan standpoint: - Intimate soccer stadium - meaning there are supporter section at either end and the field is tight to the seats - Quality Pitch - The state of the pitch has to allow for a technical game without lines - Timely Content - Daily content on the website and highlights right after the game - make it easy for fans to consume content - In-game experience - a festival atmosphere and great camera angles and knowledgeable/professional announcers. Now if you are asking for $30 a ticket and fail on almost all of those you're cheating the game and the fans. FCE and the Ottawa Fury do a poor job on all of those at the moment. While they do a poor job of that, people turn their back on the product and spend their money elsewhere. Look at the professionalism for other lower leagues in Canada we should expect the same https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pL04INIzAWk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigzTFC Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 And also $15 million is much more palatable then the $160 or even $60 million mark bandied around for CFL franchises. If it is part of a larger development it is easy to compensate upfront expense. That is why you often see developers part of the stadium project because it usually means they get access to land around it to develop. It's much easier to have support in the community through the fans in order to get things through council. For instance, in Halifax a new indoor facility was built that is similar to the one in Vaughn. It cost $10 million. As long as their is community use, there are funds available. Combine that with University use, concerts and development around the facility that price is very achievable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Bob Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 For instance, in Halifax a new indoor facility was built that is similar to the one in Vaughn. It cost $10 million. As long as their is community use, there are funds available. Combine that with University use, concerts and development around the facility that price is very achievable. So why isn't it being achieved? You don't think FC Edmonton wants a stadium with a snap of the fingers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigzTFC Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 There is a cultural element to it from council but I don't think FCE is approaching it that way. They want the city to pay for it with land that is city owned with no development component. Not really a comparable situation. Also, their lack of off-field success builds the business case for council not contribute to a stadium. I would be very surprised if FCE ever gets a stadium based on the strength of the club. It would have to be a part of a development (Ottawa) or some sporting event that accesses government funds (Hamilton). Its kind of a double edged sword. They're killing themselves with the lack of facilities but in order to get a new one they have to show that they can succeed in what contributes to their failure. With the new hockey arena deal there won't be funds available for it for a very long time. Plus all the WWC funds went to commonwealth and training facilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sport Shaman Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Other markets potentially going into NASL will have new facilities - Hamilton and Winnipeg. And those will succeed from the gate. 4 things are important to me from a fan standpoint: - Intimate soccer stadium - meaning there are supporter section at either end and the field is tight to the seats - Quality Pitch - The state of the pitch has to allow for a technical game without lines - Timely Content - Daily content on the website and highlights right after the game - make it easy for fans to consume content - In-game experience - a festival atmosphere and great camera angles and knowledgeable/professional announcers. Now if you are asking for $30 a ticket and fail on almost all of those you're cheating the game and the fans. FCE and the Ottawa Fury do a poor job on all of those at the moment. While they do a poor job of that, people turn their back on the product and spend their money elsewhere. I am all for unbridled optimism but when you make a statement about Winnipeg and Hamilton that "those will succeed from the gate" and attribute it to new facilities then I have to conclude that we are totally ignoring all the other factors that go into whether people attend professional soccer in Canada. If only it were that simple and could be assured with a new facility. Even your four key factors don't support that statement. 1) Intimate soccer stadium - meaning there are supporter section at either end and the field is tight to the seats This for sure will not be the case if the new facility also hosts a CFL team. The stadium will be cavernous and there will be long end zones so supporters sections behind the goal line will be a country mile away. Case in point is the Investors Group Field in Winnipeg which is a beautiful facility and really rocked with 28K in attendance when we were there last Thursday. End zone seats are a long way from the pitch and crowds of 2K to 6K would be lost in there. 2) Quality Pitch - The state of the pitch has to allow for a technical game without lines For the fall season both Ottawa and Edmonton will have achieved this. Ottawa with a new stadium (large but not necessarily "intimate") and FCE with new turf in the existing Clarke Park. Should attendance skyrocket then? It will help but it is not the magic cure. 3) Timely Content - Daily content on the website and highlights right after the game - make it easy for fans to consume content This is helpful but not critical unless all of the supporters live in Mom's basement and experience the world only vicariously through an internet connection. They are not buying too many tickets on game day. Lots of sources exist for content; the NASL site, the11.ca, Canadian Soccer News and of course all the supporter groups websites. I think the team website is an afterthought at best. 4) In-game experience - a festival atmosphere and great camera angles and knowledgeable/professional announcers I agree with this statement but shiny new stadiums are no guarantee of that elusive "atmosphere". Sometimes the older facilities have more character and that is why there is so much nostalgia for all the old NHL arenas and MLB parks that have been replaced over the years. Even in the WHL, I have been told that the older arenas in the smaller cities have hands down the most intense atmosphere and game day experience. As far as the broadcasts go, I have no complaints with the FCE on air crew and I know from last year when the games were briefly on The Score/SN 360 that local production values are reasonably good. Unfortunately the CSA streaming for the Ottawa/Edmonton V Cup games sucked and NASL live is also having growing pains. Anyways, I wish there were a magic wand that would guarantee attendance but I am afraid a shiny new stadium is only one piece of a complicated puzzle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigzTFC Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Anyways, I wish there were a magic wand that would guarantee attendance but I am afraid a shiny new stadium is only one piece of a complicated puzzle. Yes, that one sentence wasn't inclusive of my 4 points. I would hope that doesn't dismiss the rest of my commentary. There is an inherent risk of providing ideas that contribute to a goal rather than providing counter commentary. Some are more comfortable than others in one role or the other. By the way, can you point to older facilities suitable for pro-soccer that would offer a better in-game experience than the new ones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Bob Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Perhaps I should put it this way, DigzTFC. Your important criteria were: - Intimate soccer stadium - meaning there are supporter section at either end and the field is tight to the seats - Quality Pitch - The state of the pitch has to allow for a technical game without lines - Timely Content - Daily content on the website and highlights right after the game - make it easy for fans to consume content - In-game experience - a festival atmosphere and great camera angles and knowledgeable/professional announcers. If those were requirements, we never would have had the Vancouver Whitecaps. Swangard is not an intimate stadium (running track, no supporters section on the north end, supporters section on the south end added only relatively late in the day), timely content was questionable through most of their history, and the in-game experience up until very shortly I began attending was aimed at the soccer mom. They played music during play, for heaven's sake. We never would have had the Montreal Impact. Claude-Robillard, where the Impact played for 14 years, falls down on many of the same grounds as Swangard. I can't speak to the pitch or the in-game experience but even in the latter division 2 days I looked to their website in vain for many details, especially in English. We never would have had FC Edmonton or the Ottawa Fury, for reasons discussed. We'd have only Toronto FC. Now, I know you're a TFC fan but I can't imagine you take it to that level! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sport Shaman Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Yes, that one sentence wasn't inclusive of my 4 points. I would hope that doesn't dismiss the rest of my commentary. But I appreciate your view that my comments are illogical and have baseless optimism. There is an inherent risk of providing ideas that contribute to a goal rather than providing counter commentary. Some are more comfortable than others in one role or the other. Sorry that you see it that way but I suspect your defensive reaction has obscured some of the points that I was making. As I said; I am all for passionate or unbridled optimism but also tend to apply the reality check and a bit of real life experience to which of the brainstormed ideas are practical to pursue. What I think you may have missed is that what I am saying is that things are not all that bad in Ottawa and Edmonton and that they are headed in the right direction to address all four of the key points that you raised. Well, maybe not #3 but I am not convinced that is so critical. I am just pointing out that large new CFL type stadiums run contrary to the notion of an intimate SSS facility. If your last sentence was aimed directly at me, then it is clear you don't know me at all. For instance; if there is a glass that is half full of orange juice the pessimist says it is half empty, the optimist says it is half full and I say thankfully there is room for the vodka. So let's all try to stay positive; there aren't enough Vs in the world so we gotta stick together since we're all in this together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigzTFC Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Sorry, Shaman I edited my language before you posted your reply. Lord Bob, Ottawa would still be in NASL under the new facility "rule". I should readjust that to read suitable stadiums of which we have very few. V's should stick together and this is a divisive topic. I'll quietly go about my work and see if what I envision is possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sport Shaman Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Sorry, Shaman I edited my language before you posted your reply. Lord Bob, Ottawa would still be in NASL under the new facility "rule". I should readjust that to read suitable stadiums of which we have very few. V's should stick together and this is a divisive topic. I'll quietly go about my work and see if what I envision is possible. I noticed after my reply went up that yours had already changed. Either way, there are no worries or hard feelings from me. Others have shared with me what they think about my comments in a far more pointed way and I survived those so what the heck. I really wish that the phrase, "If you build it, they will come." did have a more direct and tangible application to operating a professional soccer team in Canada but the reality seems to be that it is a long tough slog to get there and the undertaking is far more a marathon than a sprint. I think that this page from the ESG forum (and the 13 pages that preceed it) is a good example of the kinds of things that FCE is doing that don't seem to be growing attendance and the kind of things they are not currently doing that MIGHT help grow the numbers. http://www.edmontonsoccerfans.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1007&start=130 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigzTFC Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 I'll be interested from a TV fan standpoint how you guys enjoy the FCE vs. Impact game tonight. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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