NASL Commish Will Meet With CSA

[Lord Bob]

I don't see anything mutually contradictory about Foothills running a PDL program and someone else running an NASL team. Local derby! Awesome!

[Marc]

I can't see a Hamilton team drawing more than a few thousand.  If they can sustain a club on numbers like that, then go for it.

[Macksam]

Apparently King says Hamilton is a soccer hot bed.

[the Humberlands]

Apparently King says Hamilton is a soccer hot bed.

With a ton of grassroots activity in the area, what a prime demographic to have an NASL team grow around... that and Daddy's hard-earned dollar.

An NASL team would be only the 3rd pro team in the city, including the Ti-Cats and Bulldogs (AHL).

[the Humberlands]

Peterson had an interview with TSN Corner Kicks yesterday and about 18:20, he discussed expansion by noting that in the next eight weeks or so there could be two new clubs finalized. He also mentioned (about 19:40) projected expansion sites in Canada - specifically, Hamilton, Winnipeg and Calgary. Thoughts? 

 

http://www.tsn.ca/radio/ottawa-1200/corner-kicks-march-24-2015-1.239542

 

All cities with CFL teams... hmmm

 

Personally, I think all three locations can support a team. This isn't based on any evidence however, just a glimmer of optimism.

[baulderdash77]

It sounds like the 2 locations he's talking about are Hamilton and Calgary.

 

Hamilton has always made the most sense with the new stadium and natural rivalries with TFC along with Ottawa as a potential league rival.

 

The city has a really good demographic for soccer support along with >25,000 registered players.  If you included Hamilton, Oakville,Burlington, Brantford and Grimsby (the 20 minute drive from Hamilton) they could draw from 50,000 registered players as well as over 1 million people.  That's a really tight market concentration of soccer interest to draw from.  For comparison that's roughly equal to the total registered soccer players in all of Atlantic Canada (54,000 registered players), Sask and MB combined (55,000 players) or Ottawa (50,000 players)

 

It wouldn't surprise me to see an average of 7,500 fans per game at Tim Horton's field with much larger draws when a Canadian team (especially TFC) came to town.

 

Calgary has a similar size & interest level (at least by registered players) so they would be a solid market and would be able to have a natural derby with Edmonton.  Calgary would likewise help Edmonton's situation.

 

I'm really unsold about Winnipeg though.  Soccer participation levels in Manitoba are very low compared to other parts of Canada (only 15,000 players in the province).  I don't think they have the kind of local soccer support to make something work.  They would be relatively isolated from Calgary & Edmonton and without a very high % of fans coming out it could be a tough thing for them.

[Trillium]

Registered players do not equate to bums in seats for professional soccer clubs, any club who thinks cause there are 50k registered players that equates out to X number of fans will be in the red for years working on that equation.

 

Population between 18 and 35 is the demographic to look at. Then look at average wage in a community to get an idea of disposable income, then you have a better metric for attendance. Can you attract X percentage of the 18 to 35 crowd ? That is your target number.

 

http://www.hamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/CE81A8A1-A825-4A64-B9FD-C014B561D41C/0/GIS20062011PopulationbyAgeandSexCohortTable.pdf

 

Can you attract 5% of the target age groupings and have 6 to 7 thousand out to a game ?

 

Can you do better then 5% ?

 

http://www.calgaryeconomicdevelopment.com/research/demographicspopulation/overview

[lazlo_80]

Trillium. Can't look at the doc you linked so just a question...does it account for people in surrounding areas of hamilton as well? I Think you could realistically draw from Stoney creek to Burlington consistently. I still think they missed an opportunity with placing the stadium in the same spot. A little closer to james or Hess and you could have a March to the match situation.

[Wingback6]

 

I'm really unsold about Winnipeg though.  Soccer participation levels in Manitoba are very low compared to other parts of Canada (only 15,000 players in the province).  I don't think they have the kind of local soccer support to make something work.  They would be relatively isolated from Calgary & Edmonton and without a very high % of fans coming out it could be a tough thing for them.

Well, 28,000+ (myself included) came out to see the girls last spring. Second highest turnout for the team in Canadian history.  That's 5000 more than BMO has ever had, ever, in any game. 5000 also happens to be the CAPACITY of FC Edmonton's stadium.

 

So we sold out BMO and Edmonton's field, at once, to see the girls. The first major game in years. Go watch the highlights from that game, and tell me you think it wouldn't be supported here.

 

 

It was NOT warm that day either.

[-Hammer-]

Well, if the women's friendly vs England is any indication, Hamilton looks like it's doing fairly well. 14/18 sections in the lower bowl of THF are either sold out, or approaching sellout. The only exceptions seem to be the very end sections which would actually be located behind the pitches.

 

http://www.ticketmaster.ca/event/10004E732412A352

[shermanator]

Comparing turnout for a one time friendly to see two of the best women's teams in the world and a 15+ game season for a men's team at a much lower level is not an apples to apples comparison. Would 28000+ pack IGF game in game out to watch NASL games against Carolina or Jacksonville? I highly doubt it.

 

To me, a better indicator of support is the attendance for the existing lower levels of soccer. How is Winnipeg at supporting the WSA Winnipeg PDL club? From the numbers I can dig up, average attendance has never been above 500, last year at 179 / game according to Wikipedia. That's less than 10% capacity of the stands. Obviously an NASL club would not average 179 per game, but it's going to be closer to 179 than to 28000...

 

IMO, the question of what type of support a Winnipeg NASL club would attain are completely valid.

 

The argument is also valid with Calgary and Hamilton, although we have no existing club to compare to in Hamilton, and Calgary has only played exhibition games.

[tovan1]

Between the Jets, Blue Bombers, and the Goldeyes who average around 5k a game, the Winnipeg pro sports market is pretty much saturated.  Add an AHL franchise to the mix later this year and there's even more competition for fans.  There are only so many fan dollars to go around.  Unfortunately, CSA registered player numbers and attendance for WSA Winnipeg games show that interest in the game isn't yet at a point where soccer can compete with the other more established sports on a consistent basis.  The highest level I could see in Winnipeg is a Div 3 regional league soccer team.

 

Calgary only has the Flames, Stampeders and to a lesser degree the Roughnecks.  Similar situations exist in Edmonton and Ottawa. All three cities have populations of over 1 million, several hundred thousand more than Winnipeg, and fewer professional sports teams to support.  Minor league baseball is also pretty much defunct in these cities, however it is still alive and well in Winnipeg.

 

Unlike Winnipeg, NASL would work in Hamilton (Tiger Cats) and arguably Quebec City (Capitales) because of the lack of other professional sports franchises in town.  IMO Quebec should be a prime candidate if they can agree with U Laval to lease Stade PEPS.  At 12,000 capacity, it's the perfect size for NASL and could benefit from the large Quebec/Montreal talent pool.

 

The only cities in Canada that I can foresee ever getting teams in D2 or D1A or whatever you want to call it are:

Edmonton*

Calgary

Hamilton

Toronto 

Ottawa*

Quebec City

*existing teams

 

Smaller cities like Victoria, Saskatoon, Regina, K-W, London, Halifax, St. John's would have to be part of D3 regional leagues due to a combination of market size, lack of suitable venues, and travel costs in relation to attendance/revenue.

[Macksam]

Saskatoon could be a hidden gem for a 1A/NASL team. The CFL doesn't want to ravel the feathers of the Roughriders so I say let soccer take hold of the city instead.

[Jason]

Saskatoon could be a hidden gem for a 1A/NASL team. The CFL doesn't want to ravel the feathers of the Roughriders so I say let soccer take hold of the city instead.

This has always seemed like a no brainer to me.  There is nothing going on in Saskatoon in the summer sports wise at all.  If only I had the $$$. 

 

Jason

[CDNFootballer]

Saskatoon could be a hidden gem for a 1A/NASL team. The CFL doesn't want to ravel the feathers of the Roughriders so I say let soccer take hold of the city instead.

Is there a good stadium available for a Saskatoon club?

[rob.notenboom]

Is there a good stadium available for a Saskatoon club?

Not really. There are places to build or possible improvement projects, but no real suitable stadium right now.

[Jason]

Not really. There are places to build or possible improvement projects, but no real suitable stadium right now.

Griffiths Stadium has permanent football lines and turf, but from a size and location standpoint it would be good.  Gordie Howe Bowl now has turf and permanent football lines I think - they just did a reno on it.

 

Jason

[rob.notenboom]

Griffiths Stadium has permanent football lines and turf, but from a size and location standpoint it would be good. Gordie Howe Bowl now has turf and permanent football lines I think - they just did a reno on it.

Jason

Always thought both of those locations could be very good if some money was put into them.

Liebel field in Regina has stands for a couple hundred and a dirt berm around it much like Gordie Howe bowl. Also with football lines. Bug with a little investment it could make a nice, intimate 10,000 seater.

[Wingback6]

Comparing turnout for a one time friendly to see two of the best women's teams in the world and a 15+ game season for a men's team at a much lower level is not an apples to apples comparison. Would 28000+ pack IGF game in game out to watch NASL games against Carolina or Jacksonville? I highly doubt it.

 

To me, a better indicator of support is the attendance for the existing lower levels of soccer. How is Winnipeg at supporting the WSA Winnipeg PDL club? From the numbers I can dig up, average attendance has never been above 500, last year at 179 / game according to Wikipedia. That's less than 10% capacity of the stands. Obviously an NASL club would not average 179 per game, but it's going to be closer to 179 than to 28000...

 

IMO, the question of what type of support a Winnipeg NASL club would attain are completely valid.

 

The argument is also valid with Calgary and Hamilton, although we have no existing club to compare to in Hamilton, and Calgary has only played exhibition games.

You can't use WSA Winnipeg as a marker.

 

The low attendance is more a comment on how this particular 'club' was presented to the public. Which is hardly at all. They have a facebook page, and a website. But they didn't take the steps early on to establish a presence.

 

When the club was first being talked about, I was excited, and many others in the city were too. But you don't give football fans here a enough credit. We saw that it was the WSA brand... and were turned off, we saw that the owner was also the coach, and were also turned off.

More importantly for the casual footie fan the idea of an Under 23 'pro' team is alien to people here. Mention MLS, and even NASL, these are things that people understand. If you say one incredibly succesful friendly is a poor comparison, then this one is so poor as to be irrelevant.

 

People go to the lake here in the summer, and yet the bombers have had near sell-out capacity at every home game for over a decade. What's more the footie fans here are legit.  If the fans here were presented with a legitimate club, with legitimate owners people would go. No question.

 

Especially if tickets were priced somewhere between Goldeye's $7 and bombers $30 (upper bowl). The goldeyes have been succcesful because they offer a cheaper alternative than the Bombers. Soccer would fill a niche for people who can't go to every Bomber game, and don't like baseball.

 

No question, people would go. 

[Wingback6]

Between the Jets, Blue Bombers, and the Goldeyes who average around 5k a game, the Winnipeg pro sports market is pretty much saturated.  Add an AHL franchise to the mix later this year and there's even more competition for fans.  There are only so many fan dollars to go around.  Unfortunately, CSA registered player numbers and attendance for WSA Winnipeg games show that interest in the game isn't yet at a point where soccer can compete with the other more established sports on a consistent basis.  The highest level I could see in Winnipeg is a Div 3 regional league soccer team.

 

Calgary only has the Flames, Stampeders and to a lesser degree the Roughnecks.  Similar situations exist in Edmonton and Ottawa. All three cities have populations of over 1 million, several hundred thousand more than Winnipeg, and fewer professional sports teams to support.  Minor league baseball is also pretty much defunct in these cities, however it is still alive and well in Winnipeg.

 

Unlike Winnipeg, NASL would work in Hamilton (Tiger Cats) and arguably Quebec City (Capitales) because of the lack of other professional sports franchises in town.  IMO Quebec should be a prime candidate if they can agree with U Laval to lease Stade PEPS.  At 12,000 capacity, it's the perfect size for NASL and could benefit from the large Quebec/Montreal talent pool.

 

The only cities in Canada that I can foresee ever getting teams in D2 or D1A or whatever you want to call it are:

Edmonton*

Calgary

Hamilton

Toronto 

Ottawa*

Quebec City

*existing teams

 

Smaller cities like Victoria, Saskatoon, Regina, K-W, London, Halifax, St. John's would have to be part of D3 regional leagues due to a combination of market size, lack of suitable venues, and travel costs in relation to attendance/revenue.

Tell me, what city are YOU from and how much time have you actually spent here? Because you are clearly cracked if you think you are know what you are talking about here.

 

You have one argument, of dubious validity. WSA Winnipeg isn't taken seriously around here. Almost the only thing of note they've accomplished is to have an overrage player (Ali Musse). Foottie fans here are legit, and do not like being taken for fools. Most people don't consider WSA Winnipeg a professional club, and so it isn't supported like one. It is almost a joke.

 

This isn't because people don't follow footie around here. In fact it's the complete opposite. It's just that PDL isn't enough, we want more. Is it snobby, absolutely. But I've been a player and a fan in this town for thirty years. You have NO idea, and referrencing the stats for one crap club of wannabees run by a wannabee coach is hardly an accurate comparrison.

 

I can't comment on how things would work for other cities like Hamilton or Calgary, because there is no way I can know. Don't think you can know. The Commish has repeatedly mentioned Winnipeg WITHOUT BEING DIRECTLY PROMPTED. And I know the the reality here on the ground.

 

Are we at Toronto levels, no. But I am there at the pub at 9am watching premier league games, I was there struggling to find a bar that wasn't packed to watch Chelsea win the CL, and I have been here during the world cup watching the USA go out against Ghana in 2010 with over one hundred other men at the downtown YMCA at lunch time, standing in utter silence watching the replay of the free kick that ended the USA that term.

 

I was at the Fury games as a kid, I was at the men vs Cuba in High School at John Scouras field, and I watched the girls play the USA last spring.

 

And if we just use the Cuba game and USA game as a reference, then support for the game has grown here. The stands were mostly empty that day, and most people were cheering for Cuba, including the Mexican exchange students I watched the game with. Probably couldn't have been more than a couple thousand people there total. And maybe only a few hundred actually there to cheer Canada. Fast Forward fifteen years, and we almost sold out IGF, to watch the girls. Like I said, if you ain't been here you can't know, and you don't know.

 

If you wanna say that NASL here wouldn't be supported to the same DEGREE as the Bombers, Goldeyes, and Jets, that, I would agree with. No question.  But do I think we could compete with FC Edmonton or even Ottawa for attendance numbers, yes, absolutely, and that is all that really matters.

[marauder01]

News this morning off Twitter from Scott Mitchell, CEO of the Ticats

 

"@ticats have hired their first full time employee on the soccer business. With Tim Hortons Field finally complete, pro soccer on the Horizon"

 

WOO HOO

[LSM]

Fantastic news!