NASL vs USL Pro: soccerwar in Oklahoma

[ted]

below is Forever Thursdays take on USL, I'm sure he won't mind me lifting it form the ESG forum as I'd rather not misquote him. It is in response to the USL assertion, "USL PRO is the strongest, best operated and most experienced North American men’s professional soccer league below and in support of MLS, both on and off the field."

Alright, it is quotes and attitudes like this that make the USL Pro a smoke and mirrors operation that just sells snake oil to markets and then doesn't do anything for the well being of the club once they get their money from the franchise fees. USL teams fold because the USL basically says you're on your own once you are tricked into joining.

And speaking of tricking into joining I found this little gem on the USLPro site touting the new OK stadium project:

Four of the last five clubs to enter MLS have moved up from the USL’s top professional division, including teams in Vancouver, Seattle, Portland and Montreal.

Except they were not USL Pro sides when they "moved up" were they? Nice spin.

Is there something about soccer administration that attracts douchebags are we just lucky?

[Blackdude]

Seattle was, but I get your point.

[ted]

^ See even that is deceptive. The may have been in "USL’s top professional division" but it was NOT USL Pro.

[Guest ClaytonA]

Not to pile on even more - what makes the USL Pro more "smoke and mirrors" "snake oil salesmen" is the 3 games in 4 days and other schedule shenanigans such as no home games for 2 months like happened to the Whitecaps one summer. They also just are not as organized (ie Antigua all away games, bouncing players' salaries, or VSI Tampa Bay who didn't have a field announced until approx 3 days before their first game). If I was a player, unless I was local to a USL Pro team, then I'd definately choose NASL over USL Pro given the choice.

Personally we're seeing more and more alternatives to USL, so they really needed that MLS affiliation (which they had before in the late 1990s or early 2000s) for credability. It's worked so far in Sacramento and possibly in Oklahoma. Otherwise, NASL, NPSL, WPSL, the USSDA. In the US there are good amateur teams in the USASA that feel no compunction to "move up" since the fees are higher, the season's shorter, and they don't see value in it since they still have the US Open Cup to compete in every year. The US Open Cup may be the thin edge of the wedge building alternatives since it doesn away with the by fiat bull****.

The problem with our franchise based system is these exclusivity rights, ie there are only so many MLS spots, so if Miami gets in, but not Orlando then maybe Orlando's screwed in terms of the league since they need Miami's permission (since they are located in Miami's MLS territory). So it doesn't matter how good Orlando gets, they may never move up to division one. In Europe you're good enough on and off the field, then you move up the divisions given enough time. Similar to Hamilton getting an NHL team; they'd have to appease the Toronto Maple Leafs first. There isn't this potential of musical chairs enforced by legal contracts or business models.

[shamrock]

Excellent post ClaytonA. For me a league office which let's a club play 2 games in 1 or 2 days knows nothing about football. Fysiologically it's not possible for players to deliver similar performances in that short amount of time. Fortunately the clubs realize this and the better ones field very different teams in a couple of days. Also it helps that they are allowed to use more subs that normally. But still, it doesn't provide for fair competition IMO.

[ted]

For me a league office which let's a club play 2 games in 1 or 2 days knows nothing about football ... it doesn't provide for fair competition IMO.

Not to keep straying from the topic but look at the bull**** we are facing in Victoria. We won the Division and what does that get us? A place in a weekend tournament in California to play the 2nd place team from the Southwest Division on one day and the next, if we win, we play in the Western Conference Final. All that hard work to win the division (hoorah for us!) and we get sweet ****-all.

I don't really mean to pile on the USL as they have done some positive things and in my mind there is still the potential to create something fantastic but it would take a major coup of the USL leadership and that seems unlikely.

[ted]

Fascinating series of articles on the lower tiers in the US covering NASL, USLPro, PDL and NPSL: Examining the USSF pyramid: The Second Tier - this article links to all the others.

[Jason]

With the USL/NASL war in Oklahoma City, I think we've forgotten that there is a somewhat similar but less public situation in Canada. The Ottawa Fury are long time USL members that are getting into the NASL. What does USL think of this? I am guessing that the Fury's initial agreement to enter USL did not have a non-compete clause in it (that was years before the NASL was in the picture). But I can't imagine the USL is too happy with them. I doubt that they will kick the Fury out of USL as they are such a model franchise, but I have yet to hear anything about the relationship publicly.

Jason

[shamrock]

Well, I didn't think of Ottawa I must admit, but it was the point of this thread all along: what does this mean for Pro soccer in North-America? I sure hope USL doesn't pull this with all other existing amateur club making the leap to the Pros.

[alberta white]

With the USL/NASL war in Oklahoma City, I think we've forgotten that there is a somewhat similar but less public situation in Canada. The Ottawa Fury are long time USL members that are getting into the NASL. What does USL think of this? I am guessing that the Fury's initial agreement to enter USL did not have a non-compete clause in it (that was years before the NASL was in the picture). But I can't imagine the USL is too happy with them. I doubt that they will kick the Fury out of USL as they are such a model franchise, but I have yet to hear anything about the relationship publicly.

Jason

Does this not go back to CSA insistence not to sanction USL/USL-pro as D3. Ergo no USL territory for it to bear is teeth over?

[Red and White]

It'll be interesting to see if the Fury can retain their PDL club when they go up to NASL. I think they want to keep it as an academy team, but I'm not sure what USL would think about that. As Jason mentioned, they wouldn't want to lose a model franchise. But obviously, the two leagues don't have a great relationship.

In the case of the Fury, it should be mentioned that we are talking about two ownership groups, OSEG (NASL) and John Pugh et al (USL-PDL and W-League). USL would likely have little power to tell OSEG or NASL to not set up shop in Ottawa. They've retained the NASL name Fury for many reasons. I'm not sure if they had legal issues to tie up before doing so, but, if Pugh agreed to this (he's a part owner of the NASL team) USL wouldn't have had much room to speak anyway, with the risk of upsetting the owner of a model PDL franchise.

I've noticed that the Fury are quiet when asked if they'll be keeping the PDL team. I suspect that, at this point, they don't know.

alberta white raises a good point too. With the CSA indicating that USL-Pro will not be coming to Canada, USL has little at stake here. Having the Fury PDL team as an academy side to the NASL team would be a good situation for them.

[Jason]

Oklahoma update: The USL group has announced where they plan to play, um, eventually:

http://newsok.com/article/3862781

I'll summarize: they are working with a stadium design group to build a stadium. No location yet but 4 or 5 options. No word as to where the money to build will come from. Stadiums they would like to emulate include the LA Galaxy, Seattle Sounders, Portland Timbers, Dallas Cowboys and Charleston Battery. I guess it helps to have a cohesive vision, as those stadiums are so much alike :-) But it will be a "green" facility, and can be upgraded for the MLS eventually. And there was no time frame mentioned. The team will begin play next year at an undetermined location. Wow, where can I sign up for tickets.

BTW, the NASL club that is scheduled to begin play in 2015 have a lease with a high school stadium that is being completely renovated.

Jason

[alberta white]

That would be the ICON/Historic TAFT Stadium.

Notable as although they are essentially knocking down and staring again, the Brick façade is been kept as it has cultural and soci-political significance ergo, the Midwest and the New deal.

I imagine the old Speedway track will not be reinstated but rather a state of the art athletics one.

[alberta white]

anyway irrespective of the "legals", NASL announce OKC as an expansion along with Jacksonville

http://www.nasl.com/index.php?id=3&newsid=5055

[madmonte]

Nice

Now that this is done, do you think Ft Lauderdale + Jacksonville could affect Beckham?

Or more likely...Beckham and Miami affect Ft Lauderdale, if that ever comes to fruition...

[alberta white]

Nice

Now that this is done, do you think Ft Lauderdale + Jacksonville could affect Beckham?

Or more likely...Beckham and Miami affect Ft Lauderdale, if that ever comes to fruition...

To be honest, having followed Beck's career from pretty much start to finish (although I promise I has never been suggested to me by police to move along ) I get a feeling that as a football man he's probably more suited to an NASL franchise/ club than an MLS one, even though I know he's pretty much synonymous with the Product. Therefore I don't think he readily jump at the first Name to come along.

Its a bit like MLS chasing KAKA. Kaka's never been in it for the money as he's background is fairly wealthy anyway.

For MLS to get Kaka they'll have to sell him on something quite esoteric, rather than playing for purely the Money.

[madmonte]

Nice point, I never really had thought of it from that perspective. He's definitely still interested in pursuing North American soccer it seems, though...

[Jason]

Nice

Now that this is done, do you think Ft Lauderdale + Jacksonville could affect Beckham?

Or more likely...Beckham and Miami affect Ft Lauderdale, if that ever comes to fruition...

I can't imagine that Beckham/Miami would affect Tampa Bay or Jacksonville in any way as they are too far away. Anyone from those cities who goes to a Beckham/Miami game will do it as a very occasional thing. If they choose to support soccer in their town or not will likely be based on other factors. It would dash Orlando's MLS hopes perhaps. As far as Ft. Lauderdale, it likely would hurt them in some way. However, south Florida is a big area. There could very well be the chance to carve out a niche despite MLS like the Cosmos and the Virginia NASL clubs are trying to do.

Jason

[Grizzly]

To be honest, having followed Beck's career from pretty much start to finish (although I promise I has never been suggested to me by police to move along ) I get a feeling that as a football man he's probably more suited to an NASL franchise/ club than an MLS one, even though I know he's pretty much synonymous with the Product. Therefore I don't think he readily jump at the first Name to come along.

Its a bit like MLS chasing KAKA. Kaka's never been in it for the money as he's background is fairly wealthy anyway.

For MLS to get Kaka they'll have to sell him on something quite esoteric, rather than playing for purely the Money.

No one personifies the commercialism and marketing of football more than Beckham. Not sure why you think he would be more suited to NASL than MLS.

[alberta white]

No one personifies the commercialism and marketing of football more than Beckham. Not sure why you think he would be more suited to NASL than MLS.

Ah that's because your referring to the brand Beckham, that which took the MLS money. I,m referring to Becks, the bloke who stops on Motorways and changes tires for old ladies (embellished true fact), and sits in baths full of beans on red nose day. The one who pushed the Olympic bid, had his nose pushed out of whack by Stuart Peace (Honestly a Competitive GB team at the Olympics?) but still did the rounds during the event.

In short yes I agree the Epitomy of commercialism but he's also man with a footballing soul. Got that from his dad so he did., Essentially told him to sign every bit of paper ever to be pushed under his nose. Beck's stints in the Autograph pool outside training for Manchester United are legenday.

The big thing with Becks when he came to MLS was his stated intention to help grow the game. May well have been marketing "spiel" but in the case of the man himself he probably considered that part of his personal agenda regardless of the money. Some of those exchanges with the crowd from time to time seemed to show that he cared about what he was doing. even if some of the jibes had merit (ergo, the loan spells in Europe used to extend his international career)

In not saying he'll front up an NASL bid, I think that's two far down the scale, But If he's going to be attached to a Expansion I'd suspect he prefer to be involved with an Impact style PROMOTION rather than a start up put together purely for the money.

So I think he'll wait it out a tad longer than Jump at Miami.

Now If the Rowdies or the Strikers were to start thinking of Jumping Ship, then their NASL1.0 history would be more to his liking.

Or are there any USL -Pros other than Orlando with a strong history ready to step up?

[Grizzly]

Ah that's because your referring to the brand Beckham, that which took the MLS money. I,m referring to Becks, the bloke who stops on Motorways and changes tires for old ladies (embellished true fact), and sits in baths full of beans on red nose day. The one who pushed the Olympic bid, had his nose pushed out of whack by Stuart Peace (Honestly a Competitive GB team at the Olympics?) but still did the rounds during the event.

In short yes I agree the Epitomy of commercialism but he's also man with a footballing soul. Got that from his dad so he did., Essentially told him to sign every bit of paper ever to be pushed under his nose. Beck's stints in the Autograph pool outside training for Manchester United are legenday.

The big thing with Becks when he came to MLS was his stated intention to help grow the game. May well have been marketing "spiel" but in the case of the man himself he probably considered that part of his personal agenda regardless of the money. Some of those exchanges with the crowd from time to time seemed to show that he cared about what he was doing. even if some of the jibes had merit (ergo, the loan spells in Europe used to extend his international career)

In not saying he'll front up an NASL bid, I think that's two far down the scale, But If he's going to be attached to a Expansion I'd suspect he prefer to be involved with an Impact style PROMOTION rather than a start up put together purely for the money.

So I think he'll wait it out a tad longer than Jump at Miami.

Now If the Rowdies or the Strikers were to start thinking of Jumping Ship, then their NASL1.0 history would be more to his liking.

Or are there any USL -Pros other than Orlando with a strong history ready to step up?

I think to put such a positive spin on Beckham you have to be either English or a 15 year old girl! I am assuming you are the former! Beckham will do whatever makes him the most money and markets his "brand" the best just like he has done throughout his career and I doubt that NASL is very attractive for him in that regard. Just like Red Bull he wants his name associated with a large and "cool" city so Miami might be attractive to him for that reason.

[madmonte]

I think to put such a positive spin on Beckham you have to be either English or a 15 year old girl! I am assuming you are the former! Beckham will do whatever makes him the most money and markets his "brand" the best just like he has done throughout his career and I doubt that NASL is very attractive for him in that regard. Just like Red Bull he wants his name associated with a large and "cool" city so Miami might be attractive to him for that reason.

I'm neither English nor 15, and I think that's a pretty jaded view of a guy that gave his whole salary at PSG last year to charity. In fairness, it's because he has all the money he needs already, which means he has room to be a benefactor. But with moves like that, it's clear it's not always about the money to Beckham. However I would tend to agree that in terms of soccer and profiling, that NASL would be a little too out of the public eye for Beck's tastes.

[alberta white]

I think to put such a positive spin on Beckham you have to be either English or a 15 year old girl! I am assuming you are the former! Beckham will do whatever makes him the most money and markets his "brand" the best just like he has done throughout his career and I doubt that NASL is very attractive for him in that regard. Just like Red Bull he wants his name associated with a large and "cool" city so Miami might be attractive to him for that reason.

Actually I'm a Leeds fan so I genetically predisposed to hating the living bones of him! Just the same as you do.

Problem is, to those who have met him outside of work, he's actually a nice guy. Which is what truly gets up the nose of his detractors.

[maccaliam]

I'm neither English nor 15, and I think that's a pretty jaded view of a guy that gave his whole salary at PSG last year to charity. In fairness, it's because he has all the money he needs already, which means he has room to be a benefactor. But with moves like that, it's clear it's not always about the money to Beckham. However I would tend to agree that in terms of soccer and profiling, that NASL would be a little too out of the public eye for Beck's tastes.

What he lost in PSG salary, he made fifty times or more than that in image-rights/publicity. He wouldn't dream of giving that to charity bc that's where he makes the really big money (bc that's taxed as a business, not personal income, so small tax rate).

He isn't as bad as his detractors often say, and he isn't as good as his followers say. He's pretty much like every other footballer, except prettier. He is probably a pretty decent individual overall, but makes virtually every decision based on his own interests: how much money it can make him and what it means to his public-image.

[alberta white]

What he lost in PSG salary, he made fifty times or more than that in image-rights/publicity. He wouldn't dream of giving that to charity bc that's where he makes the really big money (bc that's taxed as a business, not personal income, so small tax rate).

He isn't as bad as his detractors often say, and he isn't as good as his followers say. He's pretty much like every other footballer, except prettier. He is probably a pretty decent individual overall, but makes virtually every decision based on his own interests: how much money it can make him and what it means to his public-image.

agreed, but that's what happens when you Marry a spice girl and her Agent tags along...