Where do we go from here...

[Trillium]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

And you are getting this idea that I want the status quo & am not asking for change simply because I don't agree with how you have decided I should protest? Has it not occurred to you that I have & can be vocal & getting the voice out in other ways?

Let me spell it out for you nice & clearly - I think the CSA needs to be re-vamped and improved, possibly completely reformed. I am not advocating for the status quo. I want to see the CSA run more professionaly, business-oriented & with greater priority placed on the interests of the men's national team. I believe a review from the outside & without any partisan interests is the first step. I believe that while Colin Lindford probably is correct in his vision for what is wrong with the CSA, on the evidence presented thus far he was extremely poor on the execution of those ideas, which unfortunately continued the mess. I am therefore somewhat indifferent to his resignation, exactly in the same way that our players appear to be. I believe that any protest shouldn't actually be a protest but rather focus on something positive for change such as an overhaul of the system that solves the majority of the problem (a la the Crawford report). I also believe that the state of the game is better than it has been for a long time (quality of the team, development of the pro game & popularity the sport) & that if we keep pushing in this direction it will continue to get better. And that's what I plan to keep doing. I also believe I am pretty well sick to death about talking about soccer politics because that's not what I am truly interested in doing, so I'm going to stop.

And I don't think myself wearing a black t-shirt in the midst of a whole bunch of people wearing a whole bunch of different colours in S.221 (which is what is going to happen) is going to do a single thing in that regard.

Capieche?

Quite frankly thats a good decision on your part GL, you never have really seen the real issues and certainly most of your posts have been to defend the status quo, where your Canada jersey and go watch the players play the game... enjoy, be that typical casual fan of sport, you pays your ticket price you watch the game... but damn in your heart of hearts your really not passionate about the game ... and where its going .... too bad you have to decided to be one of the bland.

Enjoy the game.

Oh and your statements.. about hidden agendas by people...who post is really offensive, the agenda is to change the failed structure of the CSA....so it can function with a modicum of success.

[Bill Spiers]

quote:Originally posted by Trillium

Quite frankly thats a good decision on your part GL, you never have really seen the real issues and certainly most of your posts have been to defend the status quo, where your Canada jersey and go watch the players play the game... enjoy, be that typical casual fan of sport, you pays your ticket price you watch the game... but damn in your heart of hearts your really not passionate about the game ... and where its going .... too bad you have to decided to be one of the bland.

Most unfair comment when you don't know the guy - or at least I don't think you know him. That "typical casual fan" who is "not passionate" about the game doesn't travel to as many National Team games as I know G-L has been to. Hell ... he has even travelled the length of the UK to support Canadians Jason de Vos and Jason Bent at a game in Plymouth and then up to Edinburgh to watch the National Team play at Easter Park! I can personally testify to that as can Matthew from Moose Jaw. And I know G-L has been a big supporter of the pro game in TO from the days when there was very little to cheer about and very few doing the cheering.

I can't tell from your posts how big a supporter of the National Team you are although I know you're involved in soccer in the Ottawa area. It's easy to sit at your computer and criticise. I hope you are also putting your concerns and suggestions forward at EODSA meetings.

But this shouldn't be about attacking each other. It should be about attacking the system and finding better ways to make it work. Everyone has their own way - whether from the inside or the outside - by wearing a black shirt or not. If nothing else, I hope that this latest turmoil at the CSA proves to be the impetus for moving forward with some effective changes that will improve the game in this country.

[JB_Tito]

quote:Originally posted by Toronto MB

Totally agreed about the need to take action on the 12th as it does offer our only public opportunity for the next couple months.

Some form of protest must be organised be it a rally before the match, something similar to what happened at Schalke or any other medium that would generate attention.

A committee of us would need to meet at least a week before the 12th to decide on what it is that we are going to do, as the next step is to ensure that "it" is done in numbers. We would need to contact figures like the Keay brothers with U-Sector, and similar organizers with the Red Patch Boys, to ensure that we can get lots of people on-baord. Bottom line is the Vee's just dont have the people power.

There also needs to be an official press-release about the demonstration sent out a minimum of 3-4 days before the match. And we will need to include an idea as to what we actually want to see happen with the CSA. I belive most Vee's would support an independant review similar to the Crawford report as myself and others have already begun designing an outline for that. Such a review will need to be administered through the federal government.

So for GTA supporters who are prepared to put in work and meet a couple times before the 12th, a group of 4-6ish should be fine, we need to get moving now.

We just need a basic plan/statement that all Voyageurs can support about this independat review for now, something like:

Main Objective:

To create a more professional, efficient and accountable environment at the Canadian Soccer Association with the express purpose of better cultivating our elite players and national programs.

We will have to refine the plan later.

So essentially we need to establish an interim committe to ensure an organised public display on the 12th. The Vee's should more thoroughly decide upon/review the plan after that match.

Strangely, this may prove to be a catalyst for the Vee's having to establish some kind of leadership/organisation in order to put forth ideas and communicate with media. Probably not a bad move.

Than you better contact them ASAP, there is not such big response on U Sector forum regarding this matter. Since next TFC home game is on Sept.15th all TFC fans clubs should be involved in this revolution. (RPB, U Sector, NEE).We cannot ignore them if we want to make a statement on Sept.12th.

[JB_Tito]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

And you are getting this idea that I want the status quo & am not asking for change simply because I don't agree with how you have decided I should protest? Has it not occurred to you that I have & can be vocal & getting the voice out in other ways?

Let me spell it out for you nice & clearly - I think the CSA needs to be re-vamped and improved, possibly completely reformed. I am not advocating for the status quo. I want to see the CSA run more professionaly, business-oriented & with greater priority placed on the interests of the men's national team. I believe a review from the outside & without any partisan interests is the first step. I believe that while Colin Lindford probably is correct in his vision for what is wrong with the CSA, on the evidence presented thus far he was extremely poor on the execution of those ideas, which unfortunately continued the mess. I am therefore somewhat indifferent to his resignation, exactly in the same way that our players appear to be. I believe that any protest shouldn't actually be a protest but rather focus on something positive for change such as an overhaul of the system that solves the majority of the problem (a la the Crawford report). I also believe that the state of the game is better than it has been for a long time (quality of the team, development of the pro game & popularity the sport) & that if we keep pushing in this direction it will continue to get better. And that's what I plan to keep doing. I also believe I am pretty well sick to death about talking about soccer politics because that's not what I am truly interested in doing, so I'm going to stop.

And I don't think myself wearing a black t-shirt in the midst of a whole bunch of people wearing a whole bunch of different colours in S.221 (which is what is going to happen) is going to do a single thing in that regard.

Capieche?

Are you by any chance CSA board member, since status quo is what they like?

Even if you are all alone in 221 section wearing black ppl will ask you why and you will have a great opportunity to explain them why and how bunch of retards are killing Canadian soccer for decades.

[Trillium]

quote:Originally posted by Bill Spiers

Most unfair comment when you don't know the guy - or at least I don't think you know him. That "typical casual fan" who is "not passionate" about the game doesn't travel to as many National Team games as I know G-L has been to. Hell ... he has even travelled the length of the UK to support Canadians Jason de Vos and Jason Bent at a game in Plymouth and then up to Edinburgh to watch the National Team play at Easter Park! I can personally testify to that as can Matthew from Moose Jaw. And I know G-L has been a big supporter of the pro game in TO from the days when there was very little to cheer about and very few doing the cheering.

I can't tell from your posts how big a supporter of the National Team you are although I know you're involved in soccer in the Ottawa area. It's easy to sit at your computer and criticise. I hope you are also putting your concerns and suggestions forward at EODSA meetings.

But this shouldn't be about attacking each other. It should be about attacking the system and finding better ways to make it work. Everyone has their own way - whether from the inside or the outside - by wearing a black shirt or not. If nothing else, I hope that this latest turmoil at the CSA proves to be the impetus for moving forward with some effective changes that will improve the game in this country.

So Bill you have see that GL is great fan of the game and you equate that to being passionate and envolved, has GL ever asked any tough questions at the OSA level ? or in his own district ?

Tell me has built soccer pitches on his own ..or lined fields, tell me can watch men recreational 3 games and sees its beauty ... thats what passion for the game is...buying tickets and sitting in the Blues to watch a Maple Leafs game ..does not make you passionate about hockey Bill....

But a more relevant quesiton is Bill .. exactly where do you stand on the issue of closing the CSA and replacing it with a direct by the clubs elected federation ?

Could you offer up a clear concise answer ?

[john tv]

Hey guys we are all very very much in favour of changes and I don't think it serves any purpose to start questioning each other. All we are doing is changing the issues and I am sure that each one of us is not perfect but that is life. So please forget that questionable stuff.Bill has a tremendous track record and so has GL.Let us stick to the issues and find ways to show how much we care and vocal we can be and how much we want this organization as well as soccer and it's organizations and their operations reviewed.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by MediaGuy

Yes. You should have a PM in response now. Sorry about that.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by ag futbol

I don't even understand why you feel it is necessary to gather this massive body of evidence to confirm an opinion at this point.

I don't understand how you completely mis-understood what I was saying, but evidently you did with the response you just gave.

It would probably take an independent commission 5 minutes to get a decent picture of what is wrong with the CSA. What is more difficult is finding the best solution on what needs to be fixed. I've seen a thousand different viewpoints expressed on what needs to be done, but very little agreement on which one would best solve the problem, other than on a very theoretical level. A lot of the suggestions I've seen also naturally seem to favour the vested interests of the person making the suggestion. Replacing one set of people looking after their own interests with another set of people looking after their own interests won't do diddly squat.

There should be no objection to the concepts of being informed, being impartial and a lack of bias.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by VPjr

And if you agree that the infrastructure does not exist, then you should be in full support of our motives for protesting and seeking change, regardless of whether you agree with all of our tactics.

I am.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by JB_Tito

Are you by any chance CSA board member, since status quo is what they like?

When you get a chance, let me know which of the above sentences you did not understand.

[VPjr]

Guys, let's put all the knives back in the drawers.

Anyone who doubts G-L's passion for Canadian soccer is foolish. I lurked on this board for almost 2 years before ever having the guts to post and was amazed by the lengths that G-L has gone in support of Canadian players and the MNT. It's guys like G-L and a few others that made me realize that there really are Canadian soccer fans and not just people who are fans of Mama and Papa's club team from the old country.

As I mentioned in a previous post, let's not allow this to devolve into a case of "you are with us or you are against us". Differences of opinions can exist as long as we all agree on the most important principle, namely The CSA Must Change so that soccer can truly acheive its potential in Canada and if the CSA won't change, it must be replaced with a new Association (or more than 1 association) that will bring forward the changes needed. Basically, we need an Austrlian type revolution.

I think G-L and some of the others who are not in favor of protesting on September 12 will agree to the basic principle that unites all of us who are unhappy with the current state of affairs.

[JB_Tito]

How about Black Canada jersey,would that work?

[Bill Spiers]

quote:Originally posted by Trillium

But a more relevant quesiton is Bill .. exactly where do you stand on the issue of closing the CSA and replacing it with a direct by the clubs elected federation ?

Could you offer up a clear concise answer ?

Reform is certainly necessary – but closing down – or disbanding – the CSA without a new structure ready to put in its place makes no sense to me.

As to what the new structure should look like, I don’t mind considering your suggestion as one of the options. However, there are a number of other options out there that also need consideration. And with the number of options out there – and being suggested - we should be able craft together something that will work for Canada.

If your suggestion includes disbanding the provincial associations, then I don’t agree. I think there will always be a need for provincial associations in some form.

It is interesting that one option that a number of posters – and the media - have pointed to favourably is the Crawford report (Australia) and this is no-where near the ‘direct voting by clubs’ model that you have suggested. However, it could be that people are pointing to the Crawford report favourably only from then point-of-view of needing this type of independent review rather than the actual changes that were implemented in Australia. I haven’t managed to through all 90 odd pages yet.

However, one concern I have – and similar to when the CSA commissioned a report on governance a couple of years ago – is that I think we first need to define the varying responsibilities of the national association, the provincial associations, the district assocations and the clubs.

The responsibilities of each level have evolved over the years with little planning or thought as to whether or not they are appropriate. In fact, what may have been appropriate and necessary 20 years ago, may no longer be appropriate today.

Once agreement has been reached on who does what, it will be easier to put in place an appropriate governance structure.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

I can think of a few things, on the basis of my limited knowledge of other FAs, that could be changed.

-The CSA president has to work with an executive that has executive power. That power is clearly marked out, where the executive has to execute, and where it has to consult. But you obviously, in no organization, elect a president and then put sticks in the spokes. It is a limited-year term, but you have to give the guy the freedom to implement ideas, within his scope of responsibilities.

-The board could be made up of a lot a people, but the provincial representation is just ridiculous, it is inordinate, imbalanced, and unfair to other sectors that should be there in their place. There should be a few board members representing the provincial SAs, and the provinces could well elect them.

-The board should reflect Canadian soccer. There should be people voted in by the refs, others voted by the players, others directly by the clubs perhaps, others by coaches with a minimum certificate or license: the board should be a wide representation of CAnadian soccer.

-But as a board it will have its role limited, largely to important committee work, technical committees, organizing events, working on development models. It has to approve the budget, but it is not there to approve or disapprove of executive decisions as long as the budget is being respected. The executive does that. And after its term is over it will get voted in again or will be ousted.

-Who votes for the CSA president? In my view we should establish voting blocks by the sectors already mentioned, like electoral colleges, every sector gets a block of votes, and we vote that way. Meaning you divide up the effective votes between provinces, clubs, refs, players, coaches. And perhaps some of the leagues.

-The CSA needs more money. Professionals in marketing and business are the people you need to generate that. Sometimes you get the sense that a big chunk of our problems stem out of money limitations. We don't have the margin to risk, we have to be extra stingy, so teams can't prepare properly, we can't get friendlies, we can't hire top professionals with corresponding salary requirements, we have to decide between the men and the women, between kids and adults, we can't say both or all always. The best way to solve that is to generate more funds: from sponsors, from successful money making endeavours (games with revenue), from government (involves lobbying more intensely), from other sources not usually contemplated like lotteries, from merchandising even. And the best people to do that are those who are professional sport business people, or business people supported by sports people.

I think this would be a decent start, without thinking it would change anything at all on the field in principle. At least not in the short term.

[JB_Tito]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

I can think of a few things, on the basis of my limited knowledge of other FAs, that could be changed.

-The CSA president has to work with an executive that has executive power. That power is clearly marked out, where the executive has to execute, and where it has to consult. But you obviously, in no organization, elect a president and then put sticks in the spokes. It is a limited-year term, but you have to give the guy the freedom to implement ideas, within his scope of responsibilities.

-The board could be made up of a lot a people, but the provincial representation is just ridiculous, it is inordinate, imbalanced, and unfair to other sectors that should be there in their place. There should be a few board members representing the provincial SAs, and the provinces could well elect them.

-The board should reflect Canadian soccer. There should be people voted in by the refs, others voted by the players, others directly by the clubs perhaps, others by coaches with a minimum certificate or license: the board should be a wide representation of CAnadian soccer.

-But as a board it will have its role limited, largely to important committee work, technical committees, organizing events, working on development models. It has to approve the budget, but it is not there to approve or disapprove of executive decisions as long as the budget is being respected. The executive does that. And after its term is over it will get voted in again or will be ousted.

-Who votes for the CSA president? In my view we should establish voting blocks by the sectors already mentioned, like electoral colleges, every sector gets a block of votes, and we vote that way. Meaning you divide up the effective votes between provinces, clubs, refs, players, coaches. And perhaps some of the leagues.

-The CSA needs more money. Professionals in marketing and business are the people you need to generate that. Sometimes you get the sense that a big chunk of our problems stem out of money limitations. We don't have the margin to risk, we have to be extra stingy, so teams can't prepare properly, we can't get friendlies, we can't hire top professionals with corresponding salary requirements, we have to decide between the men and the women, between kids and adults, we can't say both or all always. The best way to solve that is to generate more funds: from sponsors, from successful money making endeavours (games with revenue), from government (involves lobbying more intensely), from other sources not usually contemplated like lotteries, from merchandising even. And the best people to do that are those who are professional sport business people, or business people supported by sports people.

I think this would be a decent start, without thinking it would change anything at all on the field in principle. At least not in the short term.

Good thinking,agreed 100%

[Guest speedmonk42]

wow, not worth it.

Sorry G-L, I had to delete that rant on your behalf.

[Trillium]

quote:by Bill Spiers longtime Provincial director in Ontario

However, one concern I have – and similar to when the CSA commissioned a report on governance a couple of years ago – is that I think we first need to define the varying responsibilities of the national association, the provincial associations, the district assocations and the clubs.

The responsibilities of each level have evolved over the years with little planning or thought as to whether or not they are appropriate. In fact, what may have been appropriate and necessary 20 years ago, may no longer be appropriate today.

Bill ...its simple really.

1) Clubs train players, form teams, enter competitions and own or lease the fields on which to play games.

2) Districts train referees, administer discipline, appoint referees to assignments.

3) Provinical level has no real purpose, as clubs develop players, and districts admin discipline and assign referees.

4) National sets nation wide eligibility and player registration rules, acts to administer discipline from Districts, runs national training centres, determines nationwide structure of game, i.e. league structures, operates natonal teams....

The clubs elect district directors.

The clubs attend national association AGMS to elect national Directors.

Referees associations at district levels ... get a club like vote to exercise at National AGMS.

National team players on Beach Soccer, Futsal, and 11 aside games female and male get to elect 2 player directors on National association as unified group.

Sport Canada gets to place one director on National board.

Change the structure Bill you know darn well what happens at the provinical level is irrelevant it can and should be uploaded to a national football federation.. such things as electronic player registration etc... make it all so easy today versus twenty years ago.

Comments ?

[Trillium]

quote:Originally posted by Bill Spiers

To do what Bill, just what is the overiding reason for provincial associations to exist ?

What does the OSA do that a National club elected Federation cannot do ?

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by Trillium

Bill ...its simple really.

1) Clubs train players, form teams, enter competitions and own or lease the fields on which to play games.

2) Districts train referees, administer discipline, appoint referees to assignments.

3) Provinical level has no real purpose, as clubs develop players, and districts admin discipline and assign referees.

4) National sets nation wide eligibility and player registration rules, acts to administer discipline from Districts, runs national training centres, determines nationwide structure of game, i.e. league structures, operates natonal teams....

The clubs elect district directors.

The clubs attend national association AGMS to elect national Directors.

Referees associations at district levels ... get a club like vote to exercise at National AGMS.

National team players on Beach Soccer, Futsal, and 11 aside games female and male get to elect 2 player directors on National association as unified group.

Sport Canada gets to place one director on National board.

Change the structure Bill you know darn well what happens at the provinical level is irrelevant it can and should be uploaded to a national football federation.. such things as electronic player registration etc... make it all so easy today versus twenty years ago.

Comments ?

Normally the regions, states or provinces have jurisdiction of lower level competitions, below professional level, which would be part of a league administration. The national FAs have control over the professional clubs at a higher level and the national teams.

As in Canada most competition is not professional, that means the provinces have, keeping in line with this principle, a lot more power. Provinces should be feeding refs into national reffing responsibility, but since we have so few pro teams, the need is not that high. Though the CSA could be requesting refs from provinces, then be putting them to test and recommending them to MLS or USL.

Apart from this, the provinces will have little influence on pro leagues or on national teams, or at least should not.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by Trillium

Bill ...its simple really.

1) Clubs train players, form teams, enter competitions and own or lease the fields on which to play games.

2) Districts train referees, administer discipline, appoint referees to assignments.

3) Provinical level has no real purpose, as clubs develop players, and districts admin discipline and assign referees.

4) National sets nation wide eligibility and player registration rules, acts to administer discipline from Districts, runs national training centres, determines nationwide structure of game, i.e. league structures, operates natonal teams....

The clubs elect district directors.

The clubs attend national association AGMS to elect national Directors.

Referees associations at district levels ... get a club like vote to exercise at National AGMS.

National team players on Beach Soccer, Futsal, and 11 aside games female and male get to elect 2 player directors on National association as unified group.

Sport Canada gets to place one director on National board.

Change the structure Bill you know darn well what happens at the provinical level is irrelevant it can and should be uploaded to a national football federation.. such things as electronic player registration etc... make it all so easy today versus twenty years ago.

Comments ?

Normally the regions, states or provinces have jurisdiction of lower level competitions, below professional level, which would be part of a league administration. The national FAs have control over the professional clubs at a higher level and the national teams.

As in Canada most competition is not professional, that means the provinces have, keeping in line with this principle, a lot more power. Provinces should be feeding refs into national reffing responsibility, but since we have so few pro teams, the need is not that high. Though the CSA could be requesting refs from provinces, then be putting them to test and recommending them to MLS or USL.

Apart from this, the provinces will have little influence on pro leagues or on national teams, or at least should not.

[Richard]

Letter to the Editor of the BC Soccer Web

Let's re-evaluate every aspect of soccer in Canada - Rick Gruneau

The dysfunctional nature of the CSA is nothing new to anyone who has been paying attention. Colin Linford's resignation simply highlights, once again, the dismal state of soccer's administrative organization in Canada, not just at the national level, but all the way down to the local clubs.

(Rick Gruneau is an SFU professor who has who has written or edited 5 books on the history and politics of sports in Canada. He has also coached soccer teams in the B.C. lower mainland for more than ten years).

Read the whole letter at:

http://www.bcsoccerweb.com/articles-letters-2007/letter-gruneau-sep-02.htm

[CoachRich]

Excellent letter & nice to see someone point out Linfords views on women's soccer.

It looks like Rick's call to action is to write our MP's to call for a commission to review CSA. Maybe it's time for a standard set of point for letter that fits into what Jeffery is saying in

http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13493

[john tv]

Glad to see this letter,yap it takes a bloody Dutchman, never mind we may even have Robert take credir,how is he anyway.I am happy to read that letter, but would have liked to see more detail in criticism, as well as more detailed suggestions.

[Mobiiiiiiiilio]

quote:Originally posted by john tv

Glad to see this letter,yap it takes a bloody Dutchman, never mind we may even have Robert take credir,how is he anyway.I am happy to read that letter, but would have liked to see more detail in criticism, as well as more detailed suggestions.

Are you sure you're not the voice of "The Critic" voiced by none other that JOHN Lovits?

[ANC2]

This site has been plagued with request for change in the CSA. Now the CSA has a shake up and change, everyone talking about protest & writing letters.

Another knee jerk reaction

PS: Linford by all accounts was all talk, no action