CSL

[PSG]

Out of interest, are the CSL's teams actually full-time or are most teams semi-pro / amateur?

[Luis_Rancagua]

quote:Originally posted by PSG

Out of interest, are the CSL's teams actually full-time or are most teams semi-pro / amateur?

From what I understand, most of these teams hold the status of semi-pro/amateur (3-4th division UK football). Nevertheless, if big business could invest a few $$$$, I truly feel that the status of some these clubs could rise within a 2nd division status.

[Daniel]

The Dynamites were beaten by a tier-7 Belgian side!

They are semi-pro, which means payed per game.

[CSL Commissioner]

PSG/Daniel/Luis,

We hear this question a lot. Are you pro? semi pro? amateur?

The Canadian Soccer League is a Division II professional soccer league in Canada (with MLS - this may fall to division III). There is no official designation 'semi-pro'.

Similar to leagues in other sports like the National Lacrosse League for instance, where players are paid similar salaries to CSL, the league is classified as pro, as are we. As well, like many other leagues in North America, a certain amount of amateur players are encouraged to play in the CSL - however this does nothing to alter the league status.

We do not believe in a salary 'minimum' as, the financial viability of clubs is paramount, and we believe that it is the clubs responsibility (not the leauge, or the OSA, or the CSA) to mandate how much players are to be paid.

As to performance on the field, as well as certain league requirements such as enclosed facilities, the CSL is clearly Canada's only pro soccer league. USL-2 would be a realistic comparison.

Cary Kaplan

Commissioner

CSL

[KAS]

quote:Originally posted by CSL Commissioner

We do not believe in a salary 'minimum' as, the financial viability of clubs is paramount, and we believe that it is the clubs responsibility (not the leauge, or the OSA, or the CSA) to mandate how much players are to be paid.

Hmmm . . now we have a third thread discussing the CSL. Here are some more questions for you:

1) Is there a individual/team salary cap?

2) What is the average player salary? Highest current salary? Are salaries Paid per game, per season, or spread over 12 months?

3) Not that I have the cash for either a Oshawa or Kingston team, but what is the expansion fee for a new CSL team?

4) Can someone own more than one club like in MLS?

[CSL Commissioner]

Kas,

The league does not disclose salary figures, but there is no league wide salary cap.

Franchise fees range from $100,000 to $160,000 depending on territorial and geographic considerations.

In the CSL, you cannot own more than one active club.

PSG,

I am not sure what you mean full-time? Players in the USL, National Lacrosse League, MISL and others also have 'second jobs', but the leagues are still full professional leagues, as is the CSL.

Cary Kaplan

[Loud Mouth Soup]

I'd recommend Cary for the CSA, but he's too open with and welcoming to the fans. He'd fail miserably.

/sarcasm meter off the charts

[PSG]

Mr Kaplan,

Many thanks for your input on the status of the CSL. As I'm based in England it's a bit more difficult to work out what's what. What I meant by full-time is are the players full-time footballers, ie: train everyday during the day, or do they have other jobs as well? In England the term full-time would be applied to PL, Championship, League's 1 & 2 and also a vast majority of the Conference National and some of the Conference North & South too. Many thanks for your reply.

[Grizzly]

quote:

Franchise fees range from $100,000 to $160,000 depending on territorial and geographic considerations.

Cary, I certainly hope that the CSL can achieve its goal of establishing a network of regional leagues throughout Canada. Certainly the league needs to cover operating costs and make sure potential owners are financially stable. Yet it seems to me that if this is the actual (as opposed to only publicly stated) franchise fee that it is awful high for a league that with the exception of the White Eagles, has teams that draw between 100 and 300 per game. If I were a team owner or manager I would have a hard time justifying that outlay when one could draw just as well in an amateur men's league in say Ottawa or Montreal. Also recent Open Cup results do not indicate that the level of play offered is superior to that of the better mens amateur leagues. What does this franchise fee actually provide a member team? How would you convince an Ottawa team for example that it is worth joining the CSL at this fee as opposed to staying in the city's elite mens league? What would the advantages be for a team in Kingston to join the CSL as opposed to joining the same Ottawa mens league? What are the comparable fees for joining the PDL, USL divisions 1 and 2 and why would the CSL be a better option?

[Richard]

The CPSL approached the PCSL about a merger of some kind a few years back. When the PCSL board asked the same questions as are being asked here about return for the franchise fee investment and benefits to the PCSL of such a merger there were no satisfactory answers. The discussions ended right there.

[Elias]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

The CPSL approached the PCSL about a merger of some kind a few years back. When the PCSL board asked the same questions as are being asked here about return for the franchise fee investment and benefits to the PCSL of such a merger there were no satisfactory answers. The discussions ended right there.

And this is everything that's wrong with Canadian soccer. Not what's best for soccer, not what's best for the players, not what's best for pro soccer. But, "what are the benefits to the PCSL". What's in it for me and my little fantasy fiefdom that absolutely nobody in the world cares about.

I have no clue what was proposed. But the questions asked should have been, how do we make this work. How do we work together to improve the game. How do we grow each team so they can become successful.

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

Certainly the league needs to cover operating costs and make sure potential owners are financially stable. Yet it seems to me that if this is the actual (as opposed to only publicly stated) franchise fee that it is awful high for a league that with the exception of the White Eagles, has teams that draw between 100 and 300 per game. If I were a team owner or manager I would have a hard time justifying that outlay when one could draw just as well in an amateur men's league in say Ottawa or Montreal. Also recent Open Cup results do not indicate that the level of play offered is superior to that of the better mens amateur leagues. What does this franchise fee actually provide a member team? How would you convince an Ottawa team for example that it is worth joining the CSL at this fee as opposed to staying in the city's elite mens league?

I think they should raise the price even more. The only way for this league to survive is to have people come onboard who have the necessary money to invest (and to kick out a few teams that don't belong in this league).

The fact that teams draw 100-300 people a game is not "the league's" fault. It's the fault of those teams.

If you are trying to decide between the CSL or the Ottawa's men's league, you should stay in the men's league. Is the question in Ottawa, "the CFL, or the Ottawa men's league"? In lacrosse, is it, "the NLL or local adult league"?

The level of play is a problem. It needs to be improved a lot. But on the other hand, one way for potential owners to look at it is they can come in and do well on the field from the start.

However, yes, the league has to provide some sort of value for the franchise fee. However, the question shouldn't be, "is the franchise fee worth it" (I don't think that's the main question in the CFL). The question should be, can we make this work? Can we make the team successful on and off the field? Can we build this so it will be around 20 years from now when Canada wins the World Cup with players from our team?

[JesseDart]

My concern with the Franchise model is that is, in my opinion, in direct conflict with an Open Cup model. The open Cup model, the amateur teams have a chance to compete with the Pro teams. With a Franchaise model, the most important thing in the money and the transactions as a result of the game.

From a business side, I can understand that the CSL want teams that will becommitted to the league. However, you have to have a quality product first. So how do you build quality product? That's the challenge. We cannot expect our youngsters to play good football if we don't have competitive structure in place. So it's a catch-22 situation.

My bias is to develop amateur clubs that will encourage player development and loyalties, then the CSA, not private league's who's main concern might be the business aspect of the sport and not the sport itself, should develop a tiered professional system.

I am a proponent that the sport should drive the business and not the other way around.

Ona major problem in all of this is the CSA lack of leadership. It irks me to no end that their answer to professional soccer in Canada is the USL. What a joke! The market for the USL has been exhausted with the big 3 already in it. Get real!

[ted]

quote:Originally posted by Elias

And this is everything that's wrong with Canadian soccer. Not what's best for soccer, not what's best for the players, not what's best for pro soccer. But, "what are the benefits to the PCSL". What's in it for me and my little fantasy fiefdom that absolutely nobody in the world cares about.

I have no clue what was proposed. But the questions asked should have been, how do we make this work. How do we work together to improve the game. How do we grow each team so they can become successful.

Whoa, hang on. The question of "What are the benefits to the PCSL" IS the same as asking what's best for soccer on the Coast.

The PCSL is a league which is governed by the member clubs and for 75 years has worked to make the best possible competition for players. Not one single club is a for-profit entity. Even the recently entered (again) Whitecaps Reserves as a team are not a profit-making venture.

The CSL has to offer someting to the betterment of soccer in BC. That means they have to offer the current member clubs some sort of benefit (better exposure, development, sponsorship opportunities, whatever) before we dismantle a league that has served the soccer community well for decades.

The PCSL is very concerned with "How do we grow each team so they can become successful". I have seen no suggestion of how paying money to the CSL for the right to change the name of the league AND NOTHING ELSE is an improvement.

Right now I would think that any "franchise fees" required by the CSL would be better spent pooled together and spent on promoting the PCSL.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by Elias

And this is everything that's wrong with Canadian soccer. Not what's best for soccer, not what's best for the players, not what's best for pro soccer. But, "what are the benefits to the PCSL". What's in it for me and my little fantasy fiefdom that absolutely nobody in the world cares about.

I have no clue what was proposed. But the questions asked should have been, how do we make this work. How do we work together to improve the game. How do we grow each team so they can become successful.

I think they should raise the price even more. The only way for this league to survive is to have people come onboard who have the necessary money to invest (and to kick out a few teams that don't belong in this league).

The fact that teams draw 100-300 people a game is not "the league's" fault. It's the fault of those teams.

If you are trying to decide between the CSL or the Ottawa's men's league, you should stay in the men's league. Is the question in Ottawa, "the CFL, or the Ottawa men's league"? In lacrosse, is it, "the NLL or local adult league"?

The level of play is a problem. It needs to be improved a lot. But on the other hand, one way for potential owners to look at it is they can come in and do well on the field from the start.

However, yes, the league has to provide some sort of value for the franchise fee. However, the question shouldn't be, "is the franchise fee worth it" (I don't think that's the main question in the CFL). The question should be, can we make this work? Can we make the team successful on and off the field? Can we build this so it will be around 20 years from now when Canada wins the World Cup with players from our team?

No it is your answer that shows everything that is wrong with Canadian soccer, ie. lack of valid planning and give me your money trust me attitude. What is wrong with professional Canadian soccer is that we have had leagues and teams continually go bankrupt because of a lack of valid financial plan which has resulted in the fact that we now have no nationwide league today. A valid and realistic plan must be in place and the correct financial questions must be asked and answered sufficiently. Anyone whether an owner of an Ottawa team or PCSL members has a right to know what will be done with the money they are investing. There is a huge difference in requiring someone to have adequate financial funding like most European leagues do in their licensing procedures (bank account statements, team budget) and saying give me 100 000 to 160 000 to have the priveledge of playing in my league. Should an Ottawa club risk folding to play in the CSL? Should the PCSL teams risk financial collapse in order to pay the CSL franchise fee? Considering that the PCSL and CSL are very similar leagues in terms of fan support and playing level I don't see why any of these teams should be required to pay a franchise fee if the leagues merge and I certainly understand them being sceptical of someone proposing this.

The quality of the league plays a big part of attendance as well as the club's marketing efforts. It is really hard to interest people to pay to see what is largely an amateur level of play and lets be realistic, the CSL playing level is still at a level comparable to an amateur men's league in a big city. It is also hard to market games against largely teams from various Toronto suburban communities. The average Ottawa fan might feel some rivalry if Ottawa were playing Kingston or Peterborough but week after week of suburban or ethnic Toronto based teams is not going to fill a stadium.

Any team entering a league has to look after its own interests or else it risks folding which is not good for Canadian soccer at all. It should not be short sighted about its prospects which all three of our USL teams have been to some extent in the past but it must still attach great importance to its own interests. The CSL does not have a great record of professionally running a league either from a sports, management or financial point of view. Thus, any prospective owner is justified in asking hard questions. Hopefully the CSA has improved under Mr. Kaplan's leadership and has a valid plan in place. I can well imagine the CSL of the past coming to the PCSL with answers like yours and being rightfully turned down. If it is your own money you are investing you can say I'm doing what's best for the game trust me, if it is someone else they have every right to ask questions without your response of saying they are just selfish people without the game's best interests at heart. I have enjoyed Mr. Kaplan's answers to questions so far and am looking forward to a more thoughtful response to these issues from him. I hope the CSL is successful in its endeavors to improve its playing level and expand nationwide. On the other hand if I were a club owner I don't think I could justify paying this type of franchise fee to a league with its present playing level and teams.

[Richard]

I too wish the CSL every success in the endeavours, but their model doesn't suit the PCSL that has operated quite successfully for many years, has competitive and successful premier men's and women's divisions and introduced men's and women's reserve development divisions in 2006.

An interesting comment from a long time soccer person this past weekend who has now had two years experience with the PCSL and is associated with the Whitecaps, "The standard of the PCSL is higher than I expected. The top half of the PCSL men's premier division would be quite competitive with many of the lower level USL First Division teams." Some may not agree with this assessment but it was interesting considering from whom it came.

[Juby]

I think it's about entertainment, I have never seen it, but if it's a error fest or norwegian (joking) then meh, do people shoot from 30 yards and go through the defenders? If the players try and put some brazilian flair for the game (like that whole 'football with a smile' slogan about how their allowed to be creative and enjoy the game) I think that would bring in the fans.

If it is a good brand of football I want to buy some tickets, y'knawmean.

and hell, enterprise man: I hate those crappy super local channels but they hold high school games, so get them to play the CSL, it's win win, they might actually get a few viewers and the CSL might actually get watched on TV and arose interest.

[CSL Commissioner]

All,

To follow up on two of the key questions:

1. Are the franchise fees excessive. I say absolutely not.

Franchise Fees define to some degree the calibure of a league. Historially, when franchise fees in the CPSL or other pro sports leagues are too low, the ability for teams to meet their financial committments is unlikely. Players don't get paid, fields(there is currently a basketball league in the US called the ABA which charges a few thousand dollars for a franchise and have 20 clubs fold in the last couple years).

To me, franchise fees should be at a point, where ownership groups have to strain (not suffocate) to pay to these fees. Furthermore, all the funds go right back into the league (to the owners and/or operating funds). So the more franchise fees, the healthier the league.

Further, the question 'what do I get for $xxxx', can be asked in any league. You get a level of credibility and professionalism that to me is worth at least what we are currently charging. We want less turnover, and more long term clubs. If you make a true investment, when you join the league, there it is much less likely that you will risk giving up on that invesetment.

In sum, the more in franchise fees a) assures strong owners coming in and financially supports existing owners and league operations.

2. As to the PCSL, the CSL has great respect for the league's 75 year history. And we have not suggested any type of merger - at least since I have been at the CSL. However, I do envision, and don't apologize for, a pro soccer league across Canada with 40 teams - similar to the CHL (but professional). As of now, the CSL is focused on the template in Ontario and Quebec, and we are open to working together with the PCSL should an opportunity exist.

But neither our attendance, nor our losses in Cup games to amateur clubs, will deter us from growing both in image/profile, and in credibility - with that we hope to have a continued rise in franchise fees.

It is like a stock, a good measurement of the value of the league. Teams are paying the fees outlined - to me that is a good enough measure that we are in the right ballpark.

I hope this helps to clarify.

Cary Kaplan

[ted]

Originally posted by CSL Commissioner

... the question 'what do I get for $xxxx', can be asked in any league.

[/quote

OK, then. What would a team get for the franchise fee beyond a place in the league?

- a share of league-wide sponsorships?

- access to league PR staff?

- guaranteed spot(s) on League negotiated TV broadcasts?

- administrative support services?

- marketing seminars/workshops?

- integrated web site and e-commerce portal?

- promotional event support?

These are just off the top of my head, feel free to add anything else that being a CSL franchise provides.

[jordan]

Is there any talk of a team coming back to Ottawa?

[David C.]

quote:Originally posted by jordan

Is there any talk of a team coming back to Ottawa?

Possible answer (from the "Canadian League Ideas" thread):

quote:Originally posted by CSL Commissioner

For 2007, a major objective is to expand East. We are actively speaking with teams in Quebec and Ottawa, and hope to assist our Laval franchise with their travel costs, and local rivalries - and grow a division in this region.

[jordan]

thanks I didnt look at that thread

[KAS]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

What are the comparable fees for joining the PDL, USL divisions 1 and 2 and why would the CSL be a better option?

The fee for USL1 is $350,000USD. The others are obviously less but I don't know the numbers.

BTW guys, let's keep the discussion going without too much emotion or bashing. I'm sure that many people in positions of power in Canadian soccer (ex CSA staff) lurk here, but few have the balls to post and actually answer straight questions, comment on ideas, or otherwise engage in debates. We want more league commissioners answering questions here (and Kevan Pipe too!), so we should prove that we can maintain a debate that is worth participating in. I think the board is better after some recent *cough* changes, so lets keep it clean and civil.

Ok, I'm off my soapbox now.

[KAS]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

What are the comparable fees for joining the PDL, USL divisions 1 and 2 and why would the CSL be a better option?

The fee for USL1 is $350,000USD. The others are obviously less but I don't know the numbers.

BTW guys, let's keep the discussion going without too much emotion or bashing. I'm sure that many people in positions of power in Canadian soccer (ex CSA staff) lurk here, but few have the balls to post and actually answer straight questions, comment on ideas, or otherwise engage in debates. We want more league commissioners answering questions here (and Kevan Pipe too!), so we should prove that we can maintain a debate that is worth participating in. I think the board is better after some recent *cough* changes, so lets keep it clean and civil.

Ok, I'm off my soapbox now.

[Richard]

OK, let me add a couple more off the top of my head that I would expect to see for that kind of franchise fee:

- Actual marketing, TV/Radio/Print advertising and promotion, as opposed to cheap and cheerful seminars.

- League wide sponsorship deals with the revenues distributed to the clubs.

The CSL is only really a southern Ontario league so media concentration is quite feasible. Not as if it is continent wide like the USL.

Another question about the operation of the CSL - after the initial franchise fee is there any further payment required by teams to the league, if so what does it comprise?

[Richard]

OK, let me add a couple more off the top of my head that I would expect to see for that kind of franchise fee:

- Actual marketing, TV/Radio/Print advertising and promotion, as opposed to cheap and cheerful seminars.

- League wide sponsorship deals with the revenues distributed to the clubs.

The CSL is only really a southern Ontario league so media concentration is quite feasible. Not as if it is continent wide like the USL.

Another question about the operation of the CSL - after the initial franchise fee is there any further payment required by teams to the league, if so what does it comprise?