Calgary Boomer Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 I've never been more optimistic as a Canadian Soccer fan than now. Mostly because of the (on-off field) success at Montreal, the momentum in Vancouver and of course...the 2007 World Championships. You thought our country organized a good U19 women's chmapionships...just wait til the boys are here in July 2007. It's going to give our country credibility AND a legacy. A legacy of facilities, (even if it's just improvements), and (like the U19 Women's Tournament) some more profile for the sport. We WILL pull off a great event The other thing we should recognize is how accessible the sport is to our talented youth. There are great young players popping up in every region of our country. I was suprised to hear from my Spurs fan friend from London, that soccer over there at the youth level isn't nearly as organized as it is in Canada. They do most of their development in the schools, and then the very best are funnelled into the club academies. I think we all have lots to look forward to between now and 2010, and the fun could really start as early as this June in Holland. The road is being paved for a domestic league...it's just going to take the right people to bring it all together...and by the looks of it, some of those people could one day be...the people on this board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJT Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Calgary Boomer I've never been more optimistic as a Canadian Soccer fan than now. I was WAY more optimistic one year ago, with the Calgary Mustangs, Calgary Wildfire, Edmonton Aviators (men and women) and Montreal Xtreme still in the picture. With the exception of Montreal, I can't see such teams returning to Calgary and Edmonton any time soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 I believe there is a market for well run USL franchises in Edmonton and Calgary. Once those two cities have venues appropriate to a USL franchise I am sure you will see the USL return and flourish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 quote:Originally posted by RJB It's funny you mention a European style that the Whitecaps are having recently, with their development teams, etc. Has there been any discussion as to whether or not a European stlye league would fly here? Maybe that could be something that is bantied about, having clubs go up and down, like they do overseas. That would keep the bottom teams excited, as they battle to stay in the top flight, etc, What do you think? In Vancouver at the senior amateur level there is promotion and relegation in the three major competitive leagues on both the men's and women's sides. This is not really a problem as these leagues operate over a relatively small geographical area. It is a fairly easy drive for the players to get to any of the match venues, most of which are open parks. Now if we consider the USL for instance, how do you think a Division 2 club playing in a regional league would cope financially if it were suddenly elevated to Division 1 with all the time and travel commitments involved. It is very different in Europe say, where in most of the domestic leagues no games are further than a few hours on a coach either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJT Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Richard I believe there is a market for well run USL franchises in Edmonton and Calgary. Once those two cities have venues appropriate to a USL franchise I am sure you will see the USL return and flourish. I definitely agree that there are markets there. My concern is convincing prospective owners and the league that the recent failures do not mean otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 quote:Originally posted by DJT I definitely agree that there are markets there. My concern is convincing prospective owners and the league that the recent failures do not mean otherwise. Regrettably that's the price to be paid for failure in this business. Another reason why we simply cannot afford another failed attempt at a national pro league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Boy Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Richard In Vancouver at the senior amateur level there is promotion and relegation in the three major competitive leagues on both the men's and women's sides. This is not really a problem as these leagues operate over a relatively small geographical area. It is a fairly easy drive for the players to get to any of the match venues, most of which are open parks. Now if we consider the USL for instance, how do you think a Division 2 club playing in a regional league would cope financially if it were suddenly elevated to Division 1 with all the time and travel commitments involved. It is very different in Europe say, where in most of the domestic leagues no games are further than a few hours on a coach either way. Geography is probably the number 1 reason why a Euro format of promo/releg will not fly in North America. Plus, most sports fans have been weened on the Major League format and would find it difficult to figure out that the euro system would still be good from a competition point of view. I'm starting to take the opinion that a draft system may be the best way to get the league's developmental system down. It would take the cost away from the individual franchises and create a national standard. I mentioned in the opportunities section that the CIAU (or whatever its called now)maybe good for a new league. The infrastructure is already in place. If a national sponsor, with the CSA and the CIAU could come up with a scholarship program, it might be win-win-win situation. CSA gets a national development league from ages 18-22, the universities get more sports media scrutiny with drafts and competitions, and the league gets to pluck out the best of the crop each year. Players would also benefit with an education to boot and not have to go through the Euro trial wringer. PCSL and CPSL could still be used as farm leagues, as apparently the Whitecaps are already doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River City Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 As much as I would love to see regional leagues with their champions playing each other for automatic promotion to the National League, I agree with Richard in that a winning regional team may not be able to meet all the requirements or be able to afford playing at the National level. I think a good model to follow is the Alberta Major Soccer League where the champions from the Edmonton Premier league and the Calgary counterpart have the right to challenge for an AMSL berth. If they are ready to play at the Provincial level, the team from Edmonton for example challenges the lowest placed Edmonton team in the AMSL. The winner of a two game series gets the AMSL spot. The nice thing with this is that even if a EPL team isn't ready to go to the next level, just by taking advantage of the challenge they can see at what level of play they are actually at. If they can keep the score close in the first game and not get blown out of the water, they then have a realistic measuring stick as to how much to improve for an eventual challenge. Unfortunately, there would probably be a lot of second games with 10 - 0 scores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 We have a similar system in British Columbia with the Provincial Cup tournaments. Teams that qualify through their respective league standings from all the premier and first division leagues across the province get to compete in cup tournaments to determine the provincial champions, organised by the BC Soccer Association. There is no promotion or relegation element in the tournament, just the right to claim the provincial champion title and represent the province at the National Club Championship hosted by the Canadian Soccer Association. These are all amateur teams and do not currently include the PCSL, CIS or USL clubs, primarily because of season offsets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 We have a similar system in British Columbia with the Provincial Cup tournaments. Teams that qualify through their respective league standings from all the premier and first division leagues across the province get to compete in cup tournaments to determine the provincial champions, organised by the BC Soccer Association. There is no promotion or relegation element in the tournament, just the right to claim the provincial champion title and represent the province at the National Club Championship hosted by the Canadian Soccer Association. These are all amateur teams and do not currently include the PCSL, CIS or USL clubs, primarily because of season offsets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calgary Boomer Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 I believe there is a market for well run USL franchises in Edmonton and Calgary. Once those two cities have venues appropriate to a USL franchise I am sure you will see the USL return and flourish. I agree. I hate crying over spilled milk, but Mewata was a cool place, and with a little spruce up, was perfect for soccer. Clarke was great too, when it was new. It would just take the same kind of philosophy as in Vancouver, where you build the whole club model from the youth up, because both those cities have produced good players. Imagine if there was a youth program that identified and trained the best players to be used in EDM & CAL or sent overseas? There's already been one Hargreaves from the region. As for the previous post, it was painfully obvious that Calgary was going to suffer at McMahon and apart from Thomas Niendorf there wasn't much professionalism with the club. So, no one should have been surprised about their collapse. DoyleG wasn't happy with my earlier comments about Joe Petrone, but he's been involved in the demise of more than just the Aviators in Edmonton. The business plan was so bizarre and unrealistic, the only thing more embarassing was that no-one at the USL questioned it during the league meetings. And these silly press announcements about junkets to Mexico to find players when they could barely pay the current players was just sad. If soccer is ever to return to Edmonton (as it should) it needs new faces running it. The hardest part (aside from facilities) is to earn the trust of fans that their team can last more than 2 seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calgary Boomer Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 I believe there is a market for well run USL franchises in Edmonton and Calgary. Once those two cities have venues appropriate to a USL franchise I am sure you will see the USL return and flourish. I agree. I hate crying over spilled milk, but Mewata was a cool place, and with a little spruce up, was perfect for soccer. Clarke was great too, when it was new. It would just take the same kind of philosophy as in Vancouver, where you build the whole club model from the youth up, because both those cities have produced good players. Imagine if there was a youth program that identified and trained the best players to be used in EDM & CAL or sent overseas? There's already been one Hargreaves from the region. As for the previous post, it was painfully obvious that Calgary was going to suffer at McMahon and apart from Thomas Niendorf there wasn't much professionalism with the club. So, no one should have been surprised about their collapse. DoyleG wasn't happy with my earlier comments about Joe Petrone, but he's been involved in the demise of more than just the Aviators in Edmonton. The business plan was so bizarre and unrealistic, the only thing more embarassing was that no-one at the USL questioned it during the league meetings. And these silly press announcements about junkets to Mexico to find players when they could barely pay the current players was just sad. If soccer is ever to return to Edmonton (as it should) it needs new faces running it. The hardest part (aside from facilities) is to earn the trust of fans that their team can last more than 2 seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calgary Boomer Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 The number one problem in Canada is we can't get 20,000 people together to watch two Canadian teams play a soccer match. I can feel Kevan Pipe's sigh of relief all the way here in Vancouver Sorry, but I don't think we need 20,000 people to watch 2 teams play. We need a bottom average attendance of around 5,000. Some teams like Vancouver and Montreal would draw more, while some teams like the Victoria's and Hamilton's etc would need to average around 3,000. Once you get that base, then you can start to slowly grow and imporve each market, and then slowly introduce smart markets. The CSL was clipping along nicely, with decent crowds (especially out west) and then they started adding teams too quickly. They should have stopped at 10 for a couple of years. There was also no help for the struggling teams because each owner operated independantly. Single entity would assist in that. One of the big things that helped the CSL early on, and something a new league couldn't live without, is a national broadcast partner like TSN was from 87-89. Somebody mentioned in previous posts about Corporate partners. There are lots of big Canadian companies that could brand their product to those who either register to play soccer, or those watching (or both). Your Championship trophy could be called the Canadian Tire Championship Shield, and your cup could be called the West Jet Cup, and they'd have the rights for a set period of time with first right of renewal. (Same thing as overseas) Again, the launching pad is 2007. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoyleG Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Calgary Boomer I agree. I hate crying over spilled milk, but Mewata was a cool place, and with a little spruce up, was perfect for soccer. Clarke was great too, when it was new. It would just take the same kind of philosophy as in Vancouver, where you build the whole club model from the youth up, because both those cities have produced good players. Imagine if there was a youth program that identified and trained the best players to be used in EDM & CAL or sent overseas? There's already been one Hargreaves from the region. Clarke was built pre-WW2. Hardly new for anyone. quote:Originally posted by Calgary Boomer As for the previous post, it was painfully obvious that Calgary was going to suffer at McMahon and apart from Thomas Niendorf there wasn't much professionalism with the club. So, no one should have been surprised about their collapse. Like they were better off at Craphills. Niendorf belived in pro soccer in Calgary even when the owners go blinded by early success. How did Vandale fix his screwups? He tossed Neindorf. quote:Originally posted by Calgary Boomer DoyleG wasn't happy with my earlier comments about Joe Petrone, but he's been involved in the demise of more than just the Aviators in Edmonton. The business plan was so bizarre and unrealistic, the only thing more embarassing was that no-one at the USL questioned it during the league meetings. And these silly press announcements about junkets to Mexico to find players when they could barely pay the current players was just sad. If soccer is ever to return to Edmonton (as it should) it needs new faces running it. Once again, you don't get you facts straight. Petrone was left out of the budgetary matters despite the fact he could easily run a sucessful team with less than half of what was spent. The owners wouldn't have lost their shirts if they had listened to Petrone instead of the likes of you. Wonder if your real name is Gerry Prince. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calgary Boomer Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 Wonder if your real name is Gerry Prince. Wonder if your name is Joe Petrone. A VERY good friend of mine played for the Brickmen under Joe's management. Same story back then. If Joe was so convinced the plan wouldn't work, why didn't he save face and resign? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River City Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 Hey Guys, Rather than bicker about Petrone and Prince, how do we get the whole SWOT thing to the next level? Do we set up different threads for each item? Do we set up email committees to deal with each sector ie. Strengths? I know that the Weakness committee would be popular Any other ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooks Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 quote:We need a bottom average attendance of around 5,000. Some teams like Vancouver and Montreal would draw more, while some teams like the Victoria's and Hamilton's etc would need to average around 3,000 I agree. Some people set the bar too high. Don't try to fill 30,000 seat stadiums. I've always believed that Canada could have a strong, long-lasting league if they could maintain average attendances around 5000. Some (like Montreal and Vancouver) could average around 10,000+, and others would be below the 5000, but they could all be very viable. Look at attendances across the pond. This season, there are only a handfull of clubs in the Coca-Cola Football League One that average over 10,000, and none in league two. These are teams with a hundred years of experience. There are 5 clubs in the Championship that average below 10,000 (some well below). More than half of the Scottish Premiership average under 10,000. Once you get past the "Old Firm" the next highest is Aberdeen at 13,869. Montreal could pull that in a really good season. Take away the two Glasgow clubs and the league averages 8,000. The highest in the Scottish First Division (Partick) is averaging a little over 3,600. People just have to put things into perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Calgary Boomer The number one problem in Canada is we can't get 20,000 people together to watch two Canadian teams play a soccer match. I can feel Kevan Pipe's sigh of relief all the way here in Vancouver Sorry, but I don't think we need 20,000 people to watch 2 teams play. We need a bottom average attendance of around 5,000. Some teams like Vancouver and Montreal would draw more, while some teams like the Victoria's and Hamilton's etc would need to average around 3,000. Once you get that base, then you can start to slowly grow and imporve each market, and then slowly introduce smart markets. The CSL was clipping along nicely, with decent crowds (especially out west) and then they started adding teams too quickly. They should have stopped at 10 for a couple of years. There was also no help for the struggling teams because each owner operated independantly. Single entity would assist in that. One of the big things that helped the CSL early on, and something a new league couldn't live without, is a national broadcast partner like TSN was from 87-89. Somebody mentioned in previous posts about Corporate partners. There are lots of big Canadian companies that could brand their product to those who either register to play soccer, or those watching (or both). Your Championship trophy could be called the Canadian Tire Championship Shield, and your cup could be called the West Jet Cup, and they'd have the rights for a set period of time with first right of renewal. (Same thing as overseas) Again, the launching pad is 2007. It appears that we both agree that Canada does not need to build six 20,000 seat stadiums in order to start-up a national league. If and when a league gets off the ground, let us pray it is around 2007 or 2008, the success of the league and clubs will dictate the future size of Canadian soccer stadiums. If owners are making money and turning away fans at the gates, I'm sure the facilities will either be expanded or replaced by newer ones. Focusing on attendances, the Whitecaps only attract 5,000+ on a good day. They have not been able to average 5,000 per game in a season. The acquisition of Rick Ramsbottom a few years ago does not seem to have improved ticket sales. That became apparent in his first year with vague slogans such as x number of new tickets sold. The Ramsbottom line is that that average attendance is still somewhere near the low 4,000s per game. That's not saying much for a city with a population of 2,000,000 to work from, the best year round climate in Canada, and one that boasts a proud soccer heritage. Montreal is the only Canadian team with a strong enough fan base, that could contemplate competing in a Canadian semi-pro league. Toronto is the biggest dissapointment out of these three cities. Having the largest population to work from in Canada and having been awarded the construction of a 20,000 seat facility, should make the Hogs the flagship of Canadian soccer. If the Lynx are any indication of this, then TO falls dissapointingly short of the mark. These three primary soccer markets should be averaging 10,000 fans per game if a Canadian League is to have any viable chance at survival. If a Canadian League were to consist of nine teams (I don't see how it could support more teams than the CFL), that would mean the addition of six secondary teams. These would need to be picked from teams that have the best fan support and the best financial ownership commitments. How many teams in cities like Victoria, Calgary, Edmonton, Saskatoon, Regina, Winnipeg, Hamilton, Ottawa or Halifax are capable of that? Show me last years numbers. Like I suggested, introduce a few friends to a soccer game this summer. I can't wait for Vic U to come and play the Whitecaps. I suggested nine teams, because they could be divided into three divisions of three. The winners plus two wild card teams would make the play-off, one wild card game, two semi-finals and the final. This is similar to the Mexican League which has 18 teams, divided into three divisions of six. The top two make the play-offs plus the two best third place clubs. Of our nine teams nearly all would still be in contention for a wild card spot right to the end of the season, thus avoiding large attendance drops due to teams being out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Boy Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Robert I do not believe that Canada's geography is the number 1 obstacle, nor is the non involvement of the CSA. IMO the number 1 reason why we don't have a national soccer league is the fact there are not enough fans to fill the seats that need to be filled to even operate an amateur national league. Last year, what was the highest attendance at a soccer match that featured two Canadian teams? I'm guessing it may have been the Whitecaps vs. the Impact on August 6, 2004 when 11,019 fans gathered at the Claude-Robillard. Now if that was that highest, and if each fan spent a total of $25 at the game (a ticket, program, concessions, parking, ect.) that would make for a total gross revenue of $275,475. The expenses incurred to make this would include 20 Vancouver - Montreal round-trip airplane tickets, 10 double rooms for two nights accommodation, meals & transportation, stadium rental, match advertising costs, stadium staff expenses, the cost of food and beverages, staffing costs and I'm sure that there are other costs I have missed. So this is the best case senario. Now what about games like the Impact against the Calgary Mustangs at McMahon on June 13, 2004 that only drew 879 fans, or @ $25 each at total gross revenue of $21,975. And most of you are talking about a pro league which would mean a substantial payroll expense on top of the expenses already mentioned. I say the number one problem in Canada is that we can't get 20,000 people together to watch two Canadian teams play a soccer match. I can feel Kevan Pipe's sigh of relief all the way here in Vancouver.[^] My suggestion; introduce a friend or two to a local soccer game once or twice this season.Did you even read my post? I never said a National league woudn't fly. I said a Euro style promotion/relegation league would not fly. Please refrain from going on serious rants if you can't understand what's being written. Furthermore, there are leagues in Europe that couldn't possibly sustain attendances of 20,000+. I'd be happy when the top teams in Canada average 8-10,000 per game. That's quite conceivable these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Boy Posted February 18, 2005 Share Posted February 18, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Robert If a Canadian League were to consist of nine teams (I don't see how it could support more teams than the CFL), that would mean the addition of six secondary teams. Well a soccer roster is half the size. Soccer leagues start a little earlier and could play more games. 12 - 15 home games opposed to 9 CFL home games. These are major factors for sustainability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoyleG Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Calgary Boomer Wonder if your real name is Gerry Prince. Wonder if your name is Joe Petrone. A VERY good friend of mine played for the Brickmen under Joe's management. Same story back then. If Joe was so convinced the plan wouldn't work, why didn't he save face and resign? He obviously cares more about the sport than you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calgary Boomer Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 He obviously cares more about the sport than you do. Well that's perfectly obvious. I love the sport more than anything, so when a bunch of investors tell me that we'll be getting an average of 11,000 fans per game in a market where I've already watched the Brickmen and Drillers fold, I'll agree and sit back to collect my cheque. Oh, and because I care about this game so much, lets make sure to spend thousands of dollars on running a jumbotron every game. Then, I'll fly to Mexico to find an "exciting striker". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoyleG Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Calgary Boomer He obviously cares more about the sport than you do. Well that's perfectly obvious. I love the sport more than anything, so when a bunch of investors tell me that we'll be getting an average of 11,000 fans per game in a market where I've already watched the Brickmen and Drillers fold, I'll agree and sit back to collect my cheque. Oh, and because I care about this game so much, lets make sure to spend thousands of dollars on running a jumbotron every game. Then, I'll fly to Mexico to find an "exciting striker". Once again you don't know your facts. Until you learn, just SHUT THE F**K UP!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------- Now back to a proper debate quote:Originally posted by River City Any other ideas? One thing that has to be dealed with is the main problem with leagues in the past:Hyper-expansion. The CSL brought Montreal on board in '88 and it should've shelved anymore expansion after that. They didn't and they paid the price. Start with 8 teams and don't even consider expansion for at least 5 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted February 19, 2005 Share Posted February 19, 2005 quote:Originally posted by DoyleG Once again you don't know your facts. Until you learn, just SHUT THE F**K UP!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------- Now back to a proper debate One thing that has to be dealed with is the main problem with leagues in the past:Hyper-expansion. The CSL brought Montreal on board in '88 and it should've shelved anymore expansion after that. They didn't and they paid the price. Start with 8 teams and don't even consider expansion for at least 5 years. Oh, the good ol' soccer game, is the best game you can play. No wonder the rivalry occurs on Labour Day. I wonder what it must be like living in Red Deer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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