RJB Posted February 10, 2005 Share Posted February 10, 2005 What Canada needs is a league in the Great Lakes region. A pro league there would be a good start, with many big cities, like: Over 300 000 people Toronto Montreal Ottawa Quebec City Hamilton Kitchener London Over 200 000 St. Catherines Windsor Oshawa That's ten cities with over 200 000 people in them that could support soccer in just southern Ontario and Quebec. It would be financially possibly, with bus rides, etc, not unlike the leagues in Europe. Why do we need trans-continental league right off the bat? Why not make it reagional to keep costs down? That area is where the media is, so there'd be nothing lost. Out west, we could wait our turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BusanBhoy Posted February 11, 2005 Share Posted February 11, 2005 Firstly, I just want to say I'm brand new to this site, but I think you lot have a great thing going. I've been away for a long long time and never bothered much with computers, but, you know, along comes a wife, along comes a kid, next thing you know, your home, your sober, so why not give it a go. i'm impressed that there seems to be so many interested...long may it continue... Anyway, some of you have some great ideas, and all seem to have the heart in the right place, but I fear that the nay sayers may be closer to the mark. Yes, regional development is important and perhaps feasable (higher divisions to T&D type leagues for example), but in all our daydreams i think what we really want is much bigger than that. I think the problem (though I have no solution) is that big has never been attempted. Regardless of where we hail, we are still Canadians and that means we have Canadian vision. This means, like Trudeu's sleeping with the Elephant thing, that we look at sport (hockey is excepted as it stand in its own quasi religious way) with eyes reared on a diet of 'big time' american media (this has nothing to do with america itself so don't misunderstand, I am just identifying the situation). We may love the CFL or NLL or whatever but even the uninterested can feel the buzz of a superbowl or march madness or what have you. Basically I'm saying we have an apprahension and lack of patience with anything we perceive as 'mickey mouse'. The previous attempts at 'Pro' soccer would fit this bill. Not to criticize the intentions or work of those that tried, but cold bleachers and scant media won't reach out to the market we are in. Remember, success or failure comes not from getting people in a fotball forum to come to a game, but rather by attracting the kind of people that havn't given the game (in Canada) a thought since they played it as a child. Therefore, I see the only chance for a truly pro league is to have the courage to mount a league that feels fully national and fully "big". Hugely difficult indeed, but imposible perhaps not. You know like a "Via Rail Premier League" where ticket stubs get you discounts and there are supporter travel packages, or a linkage (but not financial (ie debt issues))with the local CFL team to tag on their advertising coat tails. Like I say I don't know how to do it, and I'm just dreaming out loud here because the dream excites me. I just belive it shouldn't be attempted until someone is ready to put together something that feels like a pro league from day one, not a promise that may grow into that feel. Anyway, thanks for the chance to dither on. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJB Posted February 11, 2005 Share Posted February 11, 2005 I see what you are saying, but that will never happen. In order for there to be any credibility, we have to start small, and to us out west, that means a league in Upper/Lower Canada. There is no other way to make the league financially viable. In the past, we've attempted to get everyone involved, to the detrament of the league. But do you know what a plane ticket from Vancouver to Montreal is worth? Instead, make that a bus/train ticket from Ottawa to Toronto, and all of a sudden there is something there that is making a little bit of sense. This would create an atmosphere not only of regional rivalries, but it would feel more European. Costs would be way down, and it would feel like a national league enough for the networks to take a chance on it, the TSN's and the Sportsnets and the Score. The only downfall is the Whitecaps, because they have committed ownership, and are strongly committed to winning. But alas, they may be left out for the good of the game in this country. And who knows, they could find themselves in the league in a few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted February 11, 2005 Share Posted February 11, 2005 BusanBhoy, every attempt to build a domestic high level pro league in Canada on the top down principle you describe has failed, for a variety of reaons, not the least of which were lack of adequate facilities in enough of the identified markets, competent management and long term financial commitment. We need to explore a different route and not risk yet another pro league failure which would be devastating to the game locally. It's bad enough when A-league teams are announced with great fanfare then collapse after fewer than three seasons. The English Premier League for example did not materialise overnight out of thin air, it grew out of an established lower level league structure. We need to lay good strong foundations then build a modest bungalow and learn to maintain it and how keep it heated before we attempt a skyscraper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moosehead Posted February 11, 2005 Author Share Posted February 11, 2005 Even if we did go with a high quality pro league (say Mls) we still need a structure below that so intergrating the regional leagues into something more forming a national (either division 1 or 2) is still a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Posted February 11, 2005 Share Posted February 11, 2005 I sort of skimmed through most of the posts....it's only been the 17-billionth time, granted, there's nothing else to discuss anyway... First, this concept about "regional leagues" and starting small in upper/lower Canada, um, it's called the CPSL. That is exactly what you guys are proposing. It's been around what, I think 7-8 years now. It draws flies. And in reality, it's been around for like 80 years because it's a continuation of the CNSL which was a continuation of the NSL which at one point, in the 70's, would draw 10 000 fans at Toronto's Lamport stadium when ethnic teams like Italia, Croatia, Panhellenic, First Portuguese, etc. played each other. Did I mention that was the 70's, i.e., 30 years ago. And at one point I think the NSL stretched from Winnipeg to Montreal with about I think like 20 teams for a couple seasons. An other thing I saw posted, was this concept of travelling fans. Who in Canada does this?? It doesn't happen in the CHL, at least not in the OHL. In the CFL, maybe 50 Ticat fans go to Toronto. Even out west, I've never noticed like a huge section of 5 000 Stamps fans in Edmonton, or vice-versa. As for Leaf & Hab fans, most of them are locals that just come out of the closet for that game. In Europe, it's not a soccer thing, it's a club thing, all sports have their travelling fans. Just because we get a soccer league, all of a sudden VIA is gonna get rich? This really is not an attack on anybody or anything, but most of the things proposed here have already been done and failed. The one key to a different outcome, is money, see Ticats. But if any of us here had any, we wouldn't be typing about things that happened 30 years ago at 2 in the fing morning. [] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted February 11, 2005 Share Posted February 11, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Elias The one key to a different outcome, is money, Yes, that is one of the keys to the success of any pro league, but there is much more to it than just money. 1. Proponents - the long-term support of a financially-capable, qualified ownership/management group. 2. Long-term financing support - sufficient financial resources to ensure the stability of the league and inevitable operating losses. 3. Venues - must be commensurate with a professional league. 4. Organization structure - must be managed in a professional manner by people with directly relevant expertise and no conflicts of interest. There are many others but these four factors are probably the most important. The main reason for the CPSL not meeting the needs of those who seek a top flight league is the lack of more than one of these pillars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Posted February 11, 2005 Share Posted February 11, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Richard 1. Proponents - the long-term support of a financially-capable, qualified ownership/management group. 2. Long-term financing support - sufficient financial resources to ensure the stability of the league and inevitable operating losses. Both of those mean there needs to be a lot more money invested. quote:Originally posted by Richard 3. Venues - must be commensurate with a professional league. I think this is highly overrated, and a bad excuse. A soccer club will not be charging $100 a ticket. If you're paying $10-$20 a ticket, I don't think people expect much off-field comforts. As long as people can go to the washroom, then get a beer and pizza at halftime, and get back to their seats in time for the start of the 2nd half, I don't think most people will expect more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted February 11, 2005 Share Posted February 11, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Elias I think this is highly overrated, and a bad excuse. A soccer club will not be charging $100 a ticket. If you're paying $10-$20 a ticket, I don't think people expect much off-field comforts. As long as people can go to the washroom, then get a beer and pizza at halftime, and get back to their seats in time for the start of the 2nd half, I don't think most people will expect more. The hardcore enthusiasts will put up with less to be sure. However as things stand there are not enough such enthusiasts to fill even a 5,000 seat stadium - the Whitecaps, arguably the country's second best and most successful modern era domestic team with a beautiful home park including plenty of the required facilities, have to not only put a good team out but also to work very hard with non-soccer related attractions and halftime shows to attract even a modest 5,000 per game. One of their owner's primary objectives is to find/build a more suitable and larger park for his club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calgary Boomer Posted February 11, 2005 Share Posted February 11, 2005 "I think this is highly overrated, and a bad excuse. A soccer club will not be charging $100 a ticket. If you're paying $10-$20 a ticket, I don't think people expect much off-field comforts. As long as people can go to the washroom, then get a beer and pizza at halftime, and get back to their seats in time for the start of the 2nd half, I don't think most people will expect more." Unfortunately, if you want to convert casual sports fans, things like that do matter...along with parking, concessions, washrooms, sightlines, and protection from the elements. This isn't an overrated point. It's not that people expect soft padded seats and lattes in the concession stands. It's the fact that most markets in Canada do not have a ground which can house between 5 and 10,000 people, covered from the elements with a natural grass field, that doesn't need to be shared with the local college football team. (Sharing football markings may not seem like a big deal, but it gives soccer that "temporary" feel. Did you see the MLS playoffs, the height of the season where games were being played in half empty cavernous stadiums with goals situated on the end zones of that city's NFL team? It looked so hokey and temporary. One of the factors I think will give investors and fan confidence in a long term viable league, is that there are permanent "homes" for soccer, which can not only serve for club games, but national team games men and women. If you look at the list of proposed stadiums in the KPMG report, hardly any of them with the exception of Swangard (which is too small for the Whitecaps) and Claude Robilliard in MTL (which may be too small for the Impact) met the criteria. Grass field, suitable washrooms, and 5-10 thousand seats. So I think it's a huge issue. Now, if you consider that 8 similar sized stadiums need to be built (or completely improved) in Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Ottawa, Hamilton, Halifax or wherever, and you use 10-15 million as the basement cost, then you're looking at a 100 million dollar initial investment. That's still less than one NHL franchise. I still think it's not out of the realm of thinking that a small group of people could own soccer in Canada, and treat it like an industry that finds youngsters, trains them, puts them in the league, and then either sells them overseas, or keeps them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted Posted February 11, 2005 Share Posted February 11, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Elias I think this is highly overrated, and a bad excuse. A soccer club will not be charging $100 a ticket. If you're paying $10-$20 a ticket, I don't think people expect much off-field comforts. As long as people can go to the washroom, then get a beer and pizza at halftime, and get back to their seats in time for the start of the 2nd half, I don't think most people will expect more. You misunderstand what the KPMG report said about venues (the source of the quote.) Currently what we have are usually high school or University facilities without adequate seating, concessions and gate control to allow between 5-10,000 paying spectators to watch a game on a decent field. "Commensurate with a professional league" means having real washroom facilities, not port-a-potties. It means having staff selling beer and pizza that is cold and hot respectivly instead of vice versa. It means having a seat to sit in for every paying spectator. The point was NOT to have "cadillac" parks like Home Depot Centre or Hunt Park but simply to have something better than the current "high school" facilities available in most cities in Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 quote:Originally posted by ted You misunderstand what the KPMG report said about venues (the source of the quote.) Currently what we have are usually high school or University facilities without adequate seating, concessions and gate control to allow between 5-10,000 paying spectators to watch a game on a decent field. "Commensurate with a professional league" means having real washroom facilities, not port-a-potties. It means having staff selling beer and pizza that is cold and hot respectivly instead of vice versa. It means having a seat to sit in for every paying spectator. The point was NOT to have "cadillac" parks like Home Depot Centre or Hunt Park but simply to have something better than the current "high school" facilities available in most cities in Canada. Back when I was a kid, I had to wait till I was an adult before I could watch Ajax or DWS from a seat. Standing room only for this former peasant. I remember getting to Ajay - Feijenoord matches at the Olympic Stadium late, because my Dad wasn't into soccer. The place would be packed and I couldn't even see field. The men lift me horizontally on their shoulders and pass me down to the front like a torpedo. When I got to the front gate I would spend the next two hours pushing away from the iron bars in order not to get skwished be the trusting force of those behind me. Canadian High School facility standards would have been a luxury for me. You guys are spoilt. Individual seats. Only in Canada can we bitz about something so trival. Real fans stand. Just ask the Southsiders. Hoping we don't use high school facilities for 2007, it would mean we have at least six facilities that could be used for a Canadian National Soccer League. What if we started a league with just six teams, and not expand from that number until the same six teams play five consecutive seasons together. If a franchise is replaced or moves the five year period would start over again. If opponents played each other 4 times each that would be a twenty game season. Teams could play a doubleheader over the course of a weekend. i.e. The Impact could played the Whitecaps on Friday and Sunday of the same weekend at Swangard. One roadtrip, two games. Sell the tickets in pairs, $20 for the two of them. Good thing I don't drink, because back when I was a kid, a P was something I took after the game in a slough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 It would be a fatal marketing blunder for anyone looking to create a successful fullblown professional league in Canada to assume enough fans will be willing to sit in second rate facilities with poor sightlines, no access to or third rate concessions and only a slough to take a leak in. The average north American sports fan has grown too accustomed to the relative luxury of places like GM Place in Vancouver, the Palladium in Ottawa or the Skydome in Toronto. There is nothing wrong with this but just don't assume you will be able to sell them on what you're describing. You might get them to one game but they won't come back let alone buy season tickets. Heresy perhaps to the diehard soccer fan but pro soccer is a business and if you don't understand your consumer and cater to his/her expectations you're done for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Richard It would be a fatal marketing blunder for anyone looking to create a successful fullblown professional league in Canada to assume enough fans will be willing to sit in second rate facilities with poor sightlines, no access to or third rate concessions and only a slough to take a leak in. The average north American sports fan has grown too accustomed to the relative luxury of places like GM Place in Vancouver, the Palladium in Ottawa or the Skydome in Toronto. There is nothing wrong with this but just don't assume you will be able to sell them on what you're describing. You might get them to one game but they won't come back let alone buy season tickets. Heresy perhaps to the diehard soccer fan but pro soccer is a business and if you don't understand your consumer and cater to his/her expectations you're done for. A slice of pizza and a beer? What kind of a target market are we pursuing? I'd settle for a good cup of Timmy Hortons and a dounut hole while sitting on a plank, not an individual seat, in the grandstand at Swangard. Too bad Tim didn't play soccer and Lenarduzzi doesn't make coffee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Robert A slice of pizza and a beer? What kind of a target market are we pursuing? I'd settle for a good cup of Timmy Hortons and a dounut hole while sitting on a plank, not an individual seat, in the grandstand at Swangard. Too bad Tim didn't play soccer and Lenarduzzi doesn't make coffee. You're the classic diehard fan Robert, the type that makes up only a very small percentage of the gate. Why do you think even the Whitecaps struggle to draw 5,000 to their home games at Swangard, and have to rely on that dumb mascot and his antics to enliven the crowd in the grandstand? Why do you think Kerfoot wants another facility? So he can raise the quality of the fan's overall experience (a professional grade venue) and thereby increase the gate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoyleG Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Calgary Boomer Edmonton and Calgary have always had decent support, but never long term committed ownership. (Joe Petrone should not be allowed to ever be involved in Alberta or Canadian soccer ever again) Care to explain this instead of gaining in unfounded cheap shots? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoyleG Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 The only way a league in the future will have any chance of surviving is that it has to be a national league. The media will never take any setup of regional leagues seriously. The reason that the CBL was taken so seriously from the start was that it was a national league A league will also have to take seriously the idea that the owners of these teams are not going to be from the cities that will have teams in such a league. They will have to accept that if they seriously want to bring in the money for the league. Any start would be with 8 teams with an average budget of $1.1 Million each. Plans should also be pushed to have existing facilities in the cities named brought up to standards since getting any SSS built is slim to none in Canadian cities regardless if the money for it comes from gov't or private sources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T5 Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 DoyleG: excellent point about the need for the league to be national. Regional leagues don't attract the needed exposure from the media that would be required to "make it happen" in any substantial type of way. Fans have to be encouraged to support such an enterprise and one of the engredients for that comes from concentrated media attention on those teams and their players. You need Quebec, the province or "country", to be backing their teams with all the other areas of Canada supporting their teams. It becomes an issue of pride, therein garnering support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Richard You're the classic diehard fan Robert, the type that makes up only a very small percentage of the gate. Why do you think even the Whitecaps struggle to draw 5,000 to their home games at Swangard, and have to rely on that dumb mascot and his antics to enliven the crowd in the grandstand? Why do you think Kerfoot wants another facility? So he can raise the quality of the fan's overall experience (a professional grade venue) and thereby increase the gate. Winger is a North American aberration and there is nothing wrong with that. If kids like it, why not. Winger's never kept me from attending. I can't speak for all fans, but what puts me in the stands is the quality on the field not the stadium. I've been to World Cup Final matches that are played in large venues and I went there because I wanted to see the best soccer live, not because the San Paolo in Naples has greate shi*tters. Most Italian fans bring a bottle of water and just want to watch the game, not get pissed. They can do that anytime. I went there to watch Maradona and Baggio, that's what large stadiums are for. Until we have a national league, where players have developed and reached a standard that warrants a large stadium, this is one area that is a mute discussion used by those who know little about business and soccer. Like Kevan Pipe. It is an excuse to do nothing but deter the growth of soccer in Canada. Develop a product, obtain a market and then we can start talking about what size stadiums we need to build. Not the other way around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Robert Until we have a national league, where players have developed and reached a standard that warrants a large stadium, this is one area that is a mute discussion used by those who know little about business and soccer. It is far from a 'mute' discussion and it is one of several critical elements that are essential to success. Refusing to address them as part of a comprehensive business plan will inevitably result in yet another failed attempt at a national pro league. There are not enough Roberts in Canada to sustain another half-assed go-around and if you don't take that reality into account you're doomed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moosehead Posted February 12, 2005 Author Share Posted February 12, 2005 I think Robert has a point though. We can't wait 20 years to have a pro league until we have the perfect situation with brand new soccer specific stadiums. The general rule in Europe has been you build up to that situation. The Mls has been an abberation as result of a billion dollar investments in that league. We need to build the structure of a semi professional national league in Canada now while working on the stadium situation at the same time. The Whitecaps, Impact are working in less than ideal stadium situations. The Storm in the PDl worked in less the ideal stadium situation. If we are not going big time pro league and just catering to the local soccer community then the stadium situation is less of an issue. What we need is 5,000 seater soccer specific stadiums with covered stands. quote:Originally posted by Richard It is far from a 'mute' discussion and it is one of several critical elements that are essential to success. Refusing to address them as part of a comprehensive business plan will inevitably result in yet another failed attempt at a national pro league. There are not enough Roberts in Canada to sustain another half-assed go-around and if you don't take that reality into account you're doomed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted February 12, 2005 Share Posted February 12, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Moosehead I think Robert has a point though. We can't wait 20 years to have a pro league until we have the perfect situation with brand new soccer specific stadiums. The general rule in Europe has been you build up to that situation. The Mls has been an abberation as result of a billion dollar investments in that league. We need to build the structure of a semi professional national league in Canada now while working on the stadium situation at the same time. The Whitecaps, Impact are working in less than ideal stadium situations. The Storm in the PDl worked in less the ideal stadium situation. If we are not going big time pro league and just catering to the local soccer community then the stadium situation is less of an issue. What we need is 5,000 seater soccer specific stadiums with covered stands. Agreed. It is better to have tried and failed, than to have done nothing at all. If at first you don't succeed, try, try and try again. Waiting for big money, waiting for large stadiums. Hey, I'm get old and tired of waiting. If they would have adopted that approach in most other countries, they would all just be sitting around and waiting like us. Instead, soccer fans in Trinidad, Guatemala, Panama, Haiti, .... (do I need to continue?), have national leagues they can enjoy. Three of those four mentioned are in the Hex, while we here in Canada get to twittle our thumbs till June before we have anything of meaning to look forward to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 I have no objection to a more modest beginning, how many attempts have we seen at a national pro league? Not one has survived because too many of the already identified key elements were missing. It would be wise to examine the reasons for these failures and learn from them so as not to repeat the same mistakes over and over to the detriment of the game. I have been promoting the regional semi-pro or high level amateur league structure here since I first joined this forum and it seems I am not alone. What I do protest is those who expect the CSA or some other fairy godfather to conjure up a fullscale professional league stretching from coast to coast that will attract our MNT players back home. Sorry guys, it's just not going to happen for a while yet no matter how much you wish for it so we had better make the best we can with what we have and keep building. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Robert Instead, soccer fans in Trinidad, Guatemala, Panama, Haiti, .... (do I need to continue?), have national leagues they can enjoy. Three of those four mentioned are in the Hex, while we here in Canada get to twittle our thumbs till June before we have anything of meaning to look forward to. Robert, where does soccer, professional or amateur, rate in the national psyche in the countries you mentioned? Compare that to where pro soccer rates in the Canadian psyche and you'll have your explanation. You might not like the answer and you'll probably resist it but if you're going to build a business based on professional soccer you had better understand and accept it because that's your market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted February 13, 2005 Share Posted February 13, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Richard Robert, where does soccer, professional or amateur, rate in the national psyche in the countries you mentioned? Compare that to where pro soccer rates in the Canadian psyche and you'll have your explanation. You might not like the answer and you'll probably resist it but if you're going to build a business based on professional soccer you had better understand and accept it because that's your market. 800,000+ Psyches (according to the CSA). You're right, I don't like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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