New Canadian League Thread...

[River City]

Maybe we should separate this thread into two - one in support of a new league and one with every argument against it.

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by River City

Maybe we should separate this thread into two - one in support of a new league and one with every argument against it.

I disagree. Both sides have the opportunity to gain from each other's perspective, and heaven forbid that we may occasionally even agree on one or two issues. In my opinion it would be more productive and constructive if we left our personal value judgements out of it. I'm sure nobody really cares if they piss me off, or if I give a rat's ass if they continually critisize every pipedream I come up with. A little more respect can't hurt. We are always going to have one group who would like an improve over the current Canadian status quo, and another group who will always compare Canadian proposals to foreign structures. Whatever creative Canadian model the innovators come up with, will never be able to satisfy the others. Therefore, in the words of Elridge Cleaver, "If your not part of the solution, then your part of the problem." There will never be a league that attracts all the top Canadian talent. No country in the world has that, so why even discuss this possibility for Canada, we'd be last in line to accomplish that. I believe what most of us who desire a Canadian league of some form want, is just that, a league of our own, even if it consists of only league quality players. Nevermind national or international calibre players. If we develop a few of those great, if not we will still have a league for Canadian fans who want to attend matches featuring Canadian teams. The objective is to have a league, and not to create a development structure for the national team. Those who disagree with this, seek something else and chances are that they would rarely if ever attend a match of the league that I propose. From that point of view, the nay sayers won't have much to offer. However, their critique can only be of help in analysing the viability of the new ideas that are proposed. Remember, these folks have a wealth of experience with failed soccer projects, since they profess to know exactly what will not work. They have expertise in how to F up. So much for that respect I was talking about, eh. Like I said, I really don't give a rat's ass whose pecker I step on. Besides, if Richard left, L.T. would think I was talking to myself. Just kidding, keep reading, one day you might actually have a worthwhile response to offer. You think this is bad, check out Chris' take on the Voyageurs on page 2 of World Football Pages, issue #52. Right opposite our own Ted's page.

[Richard]

I am confused, are you guys looking for a national amateur league or a fullscale national professional league paying living wages to the best possible players and personnel we can attract - I can't figure out from the posts which one you want. You might succed with a national amateur league but it won't pay its own way. Dream on about a national Canadian pro league, I wish you well. In the meantime I will continue to work to make our regional leagues the best they can possibly be and support our entries in the USL and (future) MLS continental leagues which is where I think the best possible future of elite level soccer lies for North America.

[Calgary Boomer]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

OK, which is the best calibre league in north America?

The new CSL you are describing would not attract Canada's top players and would still be one step below USL1. It would thus really be little more than an elite amateur league and therefore unlikely to attract the crowds you say will be needed to support it.

Define calibre?! If by calibre you mean which players get paid the most and average attendance, then it's MLS. But 4 USL teams beat MLS teams in the Open Cup last season (Which was a disaster for MLS). I've sat through enough MLS games now to know that the calibre of play is not much higher than the USL. Only the budgets are.

Any new CSL would have to include the current Whitecaps, Impact and whichever team is in Toronto,and have the exact same kinds of budgets. Why would they change just because they play other Canadian Teams instead of the ones in Richmond Virginia and Atlanta? In fact it would cheaper to operate with one currency.

All 3 of the current Canadian USL teams have current and former national team players...so why wouldn't they continue to attract top Canadian players? The top Canadian Players will always choose to try Europe before North American...that wouldn't change with 3 Canadian teams being in MLS.

I don't understand the rationale sometimes on this board...a new Canadian only league would be an all Canadian Version of the USL div 1, with the 3 existing USL teams making up the flagship franchises, with comparable salaries, budgets and player quality.

[Richard]

You were the one who brought up calibre by quoting Greg Kerfoot: "He said the Whitecaps will be in "the best calibre league in North America"." YOU define calibre. I don't think it is at all extraordinary that the top USL1 teams can sometimes beat the lower level MLS teams. That same kind of situation will pertain in any country in Europe too. Try pitting the top 5 English Championship League teams against any 5 teams from the bottom half of the EPL and see what happens.

"The top Canadian Players will always choose to try Europe before North American...that wouldn't change with 3 Canadian teams being in MLS."

Correct, but livable wages paid by clubs with larger budgets will attract MORE of our top players and maybe even some who have not yet got over the hill or can no longer find European clubs interested in signing them. USL1 players will invariable take jobs offered by MLS teams, and most MLS players if offered a job on a Division 1 or better club in Europe will take that job. In reality a Canadian league would be one step below USL1 even.

I think you're dreaming if you think an all-Canadian stand-alone version of USL1 could survive in Canada with the same budgets the current Canadian USL1 teams enjoy.

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

You were the one who brought up calibre by quoting Greg Kerfoot: "He said the Whitecaps will be in "the best calibre league in North America"." YOU define calibre. I don't think it is at all extraordinary that the top USL1 teams can sometimes beat the lower level MLS teams. That same kind of situation will pertain in any country in Europe too. Try pitting the top 5 English Championship League teams against any 5 teams from the bottom half of the EPL and see what happens.

"The top Canadian Players will always choose to try Europe before North American...that wouldn't change with 3 Canadian teams being in MLS."

Correct, but livable wages paid by clubs with larger budgets will attract MORE of our top players and maybe even some who have not yet got over the hill or can no longer find European clubs interested in signing them. USL1 players will invariable take jobs offered by MLS teams, and most MLS players if offered a job on a Division 1 or better club in Europe will take that job. In reality a Canadian league would be one step below USL1 even.

I think you're dreaming if you think an all-Canadian stand-alone version of USL1 could survive in Canada with the same budgets the current Canadian USL1 teams enjoy.

Canadian players, playing in a Canadian League, should get paid according to what they can attract into the stadiums. That is what all sport strikes and lockouts are about. Who gets what slice of the pie. So why should players start out with more at the beginning? It should work like street musicians, you take your guitar out of its case, and you start strutting your stuff. If your good, people will enjoy and pay. If your bad, you starve and start looking for something else to do. The aren't enough Canadian soccer players worthy of forming a pro league that would survive, which means the answer would be to operate a semi-pro league. A few will get paid, and others will have to settle for the priviledge of competing with them or else they can go play in a metro league. It's as simple as that. A semipro league will foster a larger pool of future players, if you have a product they can aspire to. Any other formula will go no further than things have gone for the past 100 years, which are failed attempts on top of failed attempts. Or does your ego tell you that our generation is superior and more knowledgable than the previous ones? Based on what?

[Richard]

My ego? I'm the one who has been pissing you off saying a fullscale pro Canadian league is not practical.

I'm now beginning to think even a semi-pro/amateur national league won't work either because the lower level of play will not attract the gate with the expected knock-on effect on sponsors and media coverage, both of which will be required to fund the league. It's one thing to find sponsors to cover the cost of running a team in an amateur regional league but quite another to find the bucks required to run a team in a national 12+ team league spread across Canada from coast to coast. It'll probably also be difficult to find enough quality players able to take that sort of time off from work and family commitments too.

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

My ego? I'm the one who has been pissing you off saying a fullscale pro Canadian league is not practical.

I'm now beginning to think even a semi-pro/amateur national league won't work either because the lower level of play will not attract the gate with the expected knock-on effect on sponsors and media coverage, both of which will be required to fund the league. It's one thing to find sponsors to cover the cost of running a team in an amateur regional league but quite another to find the bucks required to run a team in a national 12+ team league spread across Canada from coast to coast. It'll probably also be difficult to find enough quality players able to take that sort of time off from work and family commitments too.

Although I was responding to one of your replies, my use of "your" in "your ego" was intended in a plural context. I incorrectlt failed to add the letter s to ego. So you see my friend, it's not all about your ego, but rather to the egos of you and those like you.

[Richard]

<So you see my friend, it's not all about your ego, but rather to the egos of you and those like you.>

One has no choice but to interpret words as they are written. I can't speak for others but ego has nothing to do with it as far as I am concerned. Indeed I think you are misguided if you believe this issue here to be ego driven by anybody but yourself.

[Moosehead]

To Richard:

I don't no why you have to so negative about a national pro league. If Australia can do it Canada can do it. We just need a big investor and the will to get it done and it will happen. Your negative postings on a league doesn't help matters though.

[Richard]

Australia has done a lot of things on the sporting front that Canada has been unable or unwilling to do. I will be the first one to cheer if some magnanimous wealthy soul comes forward willing to sink millions into propping up a Canadian national professional or even amateur league. Otherwise I will remain my pragmatic self thank you and support as best I can the regional league concept and our participation in continental leagues within our means. Hell, we couldn't even sustain five USL1 clubs and one of the three remaining ones is struggling. Hardly instils confidence in any prospects for a multi-team domestic national league a success.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Calgary Boomer

NO HE DID NOT! He said the Whitecaps will be in "the best calibre league in North America". Greg Kerfoot HATES it when people link the Whitecaps to MLS. BCTV spun it that way by using all the MLS footage when running the story. The fact is...Kerfoot is not going to pay a 10 million dollar expansion fee to lose control of players his youth system develops.

And comparing the current CFL to a new CSL is STUPID! The CFL's budgets are way higher because the rosters and administration is bigger...they need</u> an average 20,000 fans to make it. A new CSL doesn't! The CSL would need an average 4,000 fans to function, and they'd be growing their business prudently if they could one day average over 6,000 like Junior hockey.

That is something that a Canadian league can easily provide that MLS could not be able to do so. The youth systems in a Canadian League would help to bring out the talent in the communities and produce more and better talent. MLS and any farm system that they might create won't be able to acheive that.

$27,000/season for a player is good money.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Australia has done a lot of things on the sporting front that Canada has been unable or unwilling to do. I will be the first one to cheer if some magnanimous wealthy soul comes forward willing to sink millions into propping up a Canadian national professional or even amateur league. Otherwise I will remain my pragmatic self thank you and support as best I can the regional league concept and our participation in continental leagues within our means. Hell, we couldn't even sustain five USL1 clubs and one of the three remaining ones is struggling. Hardly instils confidence in any prospects for a multi-team domestic national league a success.

Quick lessons for you

- 3 clubs in the Australian A-League are holdovers from the old NSL: Perth Glory, Adelaide United, and Newcastle United. New Zealand Knights will also feature players from the old Kingz FC.

- Sydney FC and Melbourne Victory replace the sorry lot of ethnic-based that dominated those cities and the NSL. All 8 teams will be occupied by the better players that played in the NSL along with a few marquee players.

- Aussie teams are limitied to a player salary cap of $1.5 Million/Team. They accept the idea of starting small and then expand.

- Football Australia took the plans of removing the old guard in it's organization and replace them with new blood. Frank Lowy, involved with the success of Perth Glory, is now head of the FFA.

- The man responsible for the A-League was the man who turned Rugby Union is Australia into a powerful force.

- The new league did have their problems with some teams not wanting to sign on. They eventually did sign on and are now part of the league.

- The A-League will have a TV contract. Proving that a planned national league will provide more than having one team in the MLS.

The only complaint about the new Australian League is that there is a New Zealand club in it. Source of contention given that:

1) The Kiwi's new domestic slate is doing much better than was expected.

2) Australia's capital Canberra won't get a team for at least 5 years.

[Calgary Boomer]

quote:Originally posted by Moosehead

To Richard:

I don't no why you have to so negative about a national pro league. If Australia can do it Canada can do it. We just need a big investor and the will to get it done and it will happen. Your negative postings on a league doesn't help matters though.

It's inconsequential what Richard says. He's entitled to an opinion, but it's not going to change anybody elses opinion on the subject.

The CSL managed to survive for several seasons despite poor budgets, stadiums that weren't suitable and owners that had their own interests at heart. The landscape has changed since then, and Mr Kerfoot's involvement in Vancouver has proven that there are people with financial clout who believe in the sport and its future.

I've said it before...a guy like Kerfoot could single handedly start his own league using the same model he's using in Vancouver.

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by Calgary Boomer

It's inconsequential what Richard says. He's entitled to an opinion, but it's not going to change anybody elses opinion on the subject.

The CSL managed to survive for several seasons despite poor budgets, stadiums that weren't suitable and owners that had their own interests at heart. The landscape has changed since then, and Mr Kerfoot's involvement in Vancouver has proven that there are people with financial clout who believe in the sport and its future.

I've said it before...a guy like Kerfoot could single handedly start his own league using the same model he's using in Vancouver.

<It's inconsequential what Richard says.>

I quite agree, as inconsequential as any other ramblings in this forum that achieve absolutely nothing on their own. All that matters is what each of us actually does, every day in the real world, building and furthering the game in Canada at all levels.

WHAT DO YOU DO FOR THE GAME EVERY DAY IN ADDITION TO POSTING ON THIS FORUM?

A guy like Greg Kerfoot, if he is motivated to sponsor a domestic league, needs to see a business plan that he is convinced will work before he spends a dime. Clearly nobody has been able to present one yet.

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

Quick lessons for you

- 3 clubs in the Australian A-League are holdovers from the old NSL: Perth Glory, Adelaide United, and Newcastle United. New Zealand Knights will also feature players from the old Kingz FC.

- Sydney FC and Melbourne Victory replace the sorry lot of ethnic-based that dominated those cities and the NSL. All 8 teams will be occupied by the better players that played in the NSL along with a few marquee players.

- Aussie teams are limitied to a player salary cap of $1.5 Million/Team. They accept the idea of starting small and then expand.

- Football Australia took the plans of removing the old guard in it's organization and replace them with new blood. Frank Lowy, involved with the success of Perth Glory, is now head of the FFA.

- The man responsible for the A-League was the man who turned Rugby Union is Australia into a powerful force.

- The new league did have their problems with some teams not wanting to sign on. They eventually did sign on and are now part of the league.

- The A-League will have a TV contract. Proving that a planned national league will provide more than having one team in the MLS.

The only complaint about the new Australian League is that there is a New Zealand club in it. Source of contention given that:

1) The Kiwi's new domestic slate is doing much better than was expected.

2) Australia's capital Canberra won't get a team for at least 5 years.

There is no parallel between Australia and Canada.

Australia does not have a market 10 times larger than it's own in an immediate neighbouring country with competing leagues that can offer a higher level of play, more competition and better pay than any domestic Canadian league likely can, with probably lower travel costs per team. I'll say it again, if somebody can come up with a business plan for an enduring Canadian league that is sufficiently convincing to attract the necessary investors, sponsors and paying fans over the long term I will support it 110%. Till then I will continue to view any and all schemes with the critical eye they deserve.

[Calgary Boomer]

WHAT DO YOU DO FOR THE GAME EVERY DAY IN ADDITION TO POSTING ON THIS FORUM?

Well, I'm a B licence coach and just wrapped up another season coaching my TWO teams. I referee mens soccer on Sundays, and play for a mens team Saturday afternoons. During the summer, I volunteer at Swangard helping with game-day set-up and tear down.

How about you? Tell us what you do to further the game Richard?

[Richard]

Good for you. I run the PCSL amongst other things, will that do?

[Calgary Boomer]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Good for you. I run the PCSL amongst other things, will that do?

Holy crap, is this Richard Howes?

Well I take everything back then.

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Good for you. I run the PCSL amongst other things, will that do?

Only if the PCSL will give us their schedule. According to your website, the countdown shows only 40 more days till your season opens. It has been featured for a number of weeks now, so obviously those in charge already know the schedule. Why are we being kept in the dark[?] For one who frequently stresses the importance of sound marketing of leagues, I would have figured you'd lead by example. From Ted's previously self deleted post, it appeared their were still some unhappy squabblings going on at the PCSL's headquarters. Have you guys straightend it out yet[?] What kind of marketing techniques is the PCSL currently employing to promote the upcoming season[?] You did emphasize that you are doing something every day, so please share some insight on the day to day running of the PCSL.

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by Calgary Boomer

Holy crap, is this Richard Howes?

Well I take everything back then.

Heh heh, who the hell are you then?

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by Robert

Only if the PCSL will give us their schedule. According to your website, the countdown shows only 40 more days till your season opens. It has been featured for a number of weeks now, so obviously those in charge already know the schedule. Why are we being kept in the dark[?] For one who frequently stresses the importance of sound marketing of leagues, I would have figured you'd lead by example. From Ted's previously self deleted post, it appeared their were still some unhappy squabblings going on at the PCSL's headquarters. Have you guys straightend it out yet[?] What kind of marketing techniques is the PCSL currently employing to promote the upcoming season[?] You did emphasize that you are doing something every day, so please share some insight on the day to day running of the PCSL.

Patience is a virtue Robert. Seems you need to spend a bit more time on www.pcsl.org.

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Patience is a virtue Robert. Seems you need to spend a bit more time on www.pcsl.org.

I found "40 days until the '05 season opens on April 30" and

"The 2005 schedule will be published as soon as it is released." If I am missing something please indicate where I can find the 2005 schedule?

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by Robert

Only if the PCSL will give us their schedule. According to your website, the countdown shows only 40 more days till your season opens. It has been featured for a number of weeks now, so obviously those in charge already know the schedule. Why are we being kept in the dark[?] For one who frequently stresses the importance of sound marketing of leagues, I would have figured you'd lead by example. From Ted's previously self deleted post, it appeared their were still some unhappy squabblings going on at the PCSL's headquarters. Have you guys straightend it out yet[?] What kind of marketing techniques is the PCSL currently employing to promote the upcoming season[?] You did emphasize that you are doing something every day, so please share some insight on the day to day running of the PCSL.

The reply that "patience is a virtue Robert." is very a la Pipe and totally evasive of the questions I asked you?

[G-Man]

Australia is surrounded by water. It has to have it's own league and there is no one willing to play with them. Canada does not have that problem. We have 300 million people living to the south of us.

The NHL works north/south. Rail is most profitable North/South compared to the east/west Canada routes. But somehow a east-west all Canadain pro soccer league will work.

Past the crackpipe. When I fantasize I usaully think about blonde twins and not about Red Deer Town winning the Alberta Division of the Pan Canada Round Ball League..