New Canadian League Thread...

[ted]

quote:Originally posted by Calgary Boomer

[sni[ several excellent points]

... Equalization would be the best scenario where everyone shares in league profit and loss, ticket sales and corporate sponsorship.

The biggest obstacle for the CSL was owners who's interest was on their own clubs, and not the league as a whole.

I agree completly but what does that have to do with the reality of the MLS behemoth sucking up all sponsorship money and media interest available in most of Canada?

I suggest improving the regional leagues as a way to help those players who want to go pro and because a thriving second (USL-D1)and third(PCSL, CPSL) tiers connecting the amatuer game in Canada and the pro game (which will be MLS) gives players options other than selling their soul to the dubious American college route.

If the MLS comes to T.O. that is it for the discussion of a national pro league. There is no two ways about it, no "if, ands or buts". Game over.

Doesn't mean I won't yack somebodies ear off about it over a few beers and tell people how it all went wrong but why not try to move onto something that actually helps the game in Canada? I mean, you can bemoan the new Battlestar Galactica all you like but they are NOT going to do with Richard Hatch's version at this point.

[ted]

quote:Originally posted by Calgary Boomer

[sni[ several excellent points]

... Equalization would be the best scenario where everyone shares in league profit and loss, ticket sales and corporate sponsorship.

The biggest obstacle for the CSL was owners who's interest was on their own clubs, and not the league as a whole.

I agree completly but what does that have to do with the reality of the MLS behemoth sucking up all sponsorship money and media interest available in most of Canada?

I suggest improving the regional leagues as a way to help those players who want to go pro and because a thriving second (USL-D1)and third(PCSL, CPSL) tiers connecting the amatuer game in Canada and the pro game (which will be MLS) gives players options other than selling their soul to the dubious American college route.

If the MLS comes to T.O. that is it for the discussion of a national pro league. There is no two ways about it, no "if, ands or buts". Game over.

Doesn't mean I won't yack somebodies ear off about it over a few beers and tell people how it all went wrong but why not try to move onto something that actually helps the game in Canada? I mean, you can bemoan the new Battlestar Galactica all you like but they are NOT going to do with Richard Hatch's version at this point.

[Calgary Boomer]

quote:Originally posted by ABEL

Big time soccer will never work here .We only support small time hockey.CHL HEY

Hmmm. So, you're saying the Montreal Impacts average gate of 9,000 isn't big time? Methinks CHL teams would LOVE to have an average attendance of 9,000.

You must be one of the people who also said nobody in Edmonton would come out to watch a bunch of "girls" 4 years ago.

[Calgary Boomer]

quote:Originally posted by ABEL

Big time soccer will never work here .We only support small time hockey.CHL HEY

Hmmm. So, you're saying the Montreal Impacts average gate of 9,000 isn't big time? Methinks CHL teams would LOVE to have an average attendance of 9,000.

You must be one of the people who also said nobody in Edmonton would come out to watch a bunch of "girls" 4 years ago.

[Andrew W]

quote:Originally posted by ted

I mean, you can bemoan the new Battlestar Galactica all you like but they are NOT going to do with Richard Hatch's version at this point.

(thread hijack)

I think you mean Dirk Benedict's version, n'est pas? We all know who the real star of that show was.

[An Observer]

Just a few comments in response to what has been said in response to my comments (even though I have written on this issue extensively before):

I am Canadian and perfectly knowledgable about the NA sports landscape. If the players are not paid a full-time wage, they cannot commit full-time to the game end of story. The shortness of the season in terms of football is another problem as if players can play 10 months a year in Europe and only 6 in Canada...it obviously effects a players development. For that reason, I am starting to support the use of Field Turf if only to increase the playing time for soccer in Canada as the leagues can commence playing earlier and run later (even if I regret this but my belief is that in the long run, such innovations can only benefit countries like Canada).

I personally doubt very much that a Canadian league would allow players outside the teams you mentioned (should they join) to be paid wages comparable to the existing USL teams....a start up league would have to if it is to be a success pay low wages to ensure the viability of the product. In other words, they can't take the risk that high wages (and existing USL salaries for non-USL league teams in the new league) would suck up too much of the initial financing. They would need to attempt to ensure long term viability by paying as little as possible on salaries at the beginning until they could slowly build the product (ie. the gates, advertising, tv audiences) to a point where in would allow some stability to take the risks of committing to higher salaries. Otherwise, you can seriously risk blowing the budget on salaries in the first year or two and everything going to bust (and anyone who has worked on the venture capital/risk management/accounting would know this without even thinking much about it)

As such, the salaries would generally be lower (and even on the whitecaps, etc. if there was some sort of revenue sharing between clubs). The lower salaries coupled with many teams stocking players from lesser leagues would immediately drop the level of the play from that in the USL currently. So at least initially, the playing standard for Canadians would be lower overall (whilst I admit those for Canadians that are currently outside the league would rise from what they currently are, it would also mean for those Canadians on the existing USL sides that it would drop, and if you assume these existing USL players are more likely to be the current national players it means they are playing in a less competitive environment.

In the medium term, if the league is well managed, has a number of owners like Kerfoot and Saputo who are committed with deep pockets, and it has the proper facilities (5,000 to 10,000 seat stadiums), it should be able to grow.

However, even if it could grow to average 9,000 at the gate like Montreal does (and believe me, that is a huge if), this would not provide for a full-time environment for the their player due to the size of Canada's geography (ie. travel costs), the meagre level of corporate sponsorship commitment that would engender (even such a widely successful league would only be comparable to the AHL in terms overall fan support), and the small ticket prices that could be charged in order to get there. Therefore, in the Canadian leagues wildest fantasies, it is unlikely to offer a much better environment in Canada for player development than Montreal or Vancouver do right now. And no respect to the franchises as I believe they are well run and managed, they do not offer what is required for full-time soccer on the level of the MLS.

People are correct that the MLS may fail in Toronto. I cannot seriously state whether it will or will not. However, if the MLS with all that is going for it with MLSE ownership, the "american" banner attached to it (and I hate Americans!), stepping into an establish league (not without problems), and likely to almost immediately attract corporate sponsorship and a television deal cannot succeed in Toronto, than soccer is dead there. There is no hope for a Canadian league to develop there. And without Toronto, you have no Canadian league as that is the seat of the media and corporate world in Canada.

Moreover, I would take my chances that with all that Toronto has going for it on this MLS venture, that it succeeds. And that by succeeding, it opens the doors for two other well run and established organisations in the Whitecaps and Impact to also move to the MLS. If it does, we have 3 full-time Canadian sides playing at the MLS level which I suspect would generate much more interest in Canada for soccer almost overnight than a Canadian league. In addition, having the MLS in Canada does not preclude Edmonton, Calgary, Victoria, Winnipeg, Ottawa, Hamilton, or Quebec or others from running teams in the USL which in my opinion would be a quality of play comparable to any Canadian league. Why would anyone think that supporters would not come out to a USL match anymore than supporters in Montreal would not come out to a match there, even knowing that the MSL is a bigger league.

Finally, if you look at the financial risk of starting a Canadian league compared to the risk associated with granting an MLS side to Toronto, there is no comparison. And for these reasons, the MLSE is interested and no one with any money is interested in starting a Canadian league.

In my mind, the only thing that is stopping this is nationalistic pride of not entering into a league with Americans. It is not based on what is best for the promotion of soccer in Canada, the improvement of the players or their well being, and what model offers the highest standard of play in terms of viewership to the most Canadians.

[ted]

quote:Originally posted by An Observer

Just a few comments in response to what has been said in response to my comments (even though I have written on this issue extensively before):

[snip]

Bugger me. [8D].

After that well thought out and articulate expression of opinion I am left with no choice but to re-state my belief that the whole discussion is moot anyway and no, there is no Dirk Benedict involvement. Richard Hatch has been shopping around a Galactica "Sequel" for years. I even saw his five minute promo video at a geek fest ... sorry ... Comic/Sci-Fi Convention in Victoria a few years ago.

And yes, obviously Observer and I have different opinions but at least I know he has thought about the issues carefully. Of course my theory will never be tested and I would rather a second rate ideas like MLS in Canada succeed than have any more failures in terms of pro soccer in Canada. Of course I will continue to support DC United over T.O. out of pure spite.

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by ted

I would rather ... MLS in Canada succeed than have any more failures in terms of pro soccer in Canada.

Couldn't agree more.

quote:Of course I will continue to support DC United over T.O. out of pure spite.

TRAITOR! )

[Robert]

[Richard]

If I was investing $10 million plus the other startup costs for a team, any sensible risk assessment would point at an established and proven vehicle (MLS) before any green field new venture already attempted and failed several times before.

Furthermore, the chances of earning a return on my investment with an MLS team in Toronto (and even perhaps subsequently in Vancouver and Montreal) are astronomically higher than if I invested the money in a domestic Canadian league.

I think there is zero chance of convincing Whitecaps FC and/or Montreal Impact ownership to jump ship from the USL to a brand new utterly unproven Canadian league which has only a trail of collapsed attempts behind it. Without doubt if our USL1 clubs are going to make a change it will be to move up to MLS if that league decides to become a continetal league.

[River City]

With Robert's numbers though, what would most people do? If I had that kind of cash, I would rather be involved with a Canadian League that I am a founding member of(with two other teams), where I have a 33% chance of winning the Championship (assuming smaller markets won't be able to compete right off the bat against the established teams), and getting an automatic berth to the CONCACAF Champion's tourney (where the main opposition is the US and Mexico) and bam! you're in the Confederation's Club Championship or whatever FIFA is going to call it.

Going through MLS, you give up all that money upfront, have limited control over what you can do and I don't believe that they would let you go to play in the CONCACAF Championship.

The choice is between being a big fish in a little pond or being a minnow in an ocean.

[Richard]

If you actually did have that kind of cash I suggest you might feel differently from the way you do now. You are overlooking risk.

Professional sports at that level is a business first so the bottom line is more important than altruism towards the sport. The NHL is a classic example.

[River City]

Yes, but there is a lot more safety in pretty much owning the league and stacking the cards in your faour than going into the MLS.

How many owners are there? How many teams do they each run? How much money have they lost? The MLS is stable (as much as it is anyways) only as long as people like Lamar Hunt stay healthy and interested. If he were to suddenly lose interest or die, would his family/estate/company continue to lose millions of dollars?

There's a whole lot of risk with the MSL and it's definitely not a guaranteed money maker. The kicker for me is that even if a Canadian team wins the Championship, that's it. There's no further representation at the Regional level. That's where the money will be (getting into the Confederations tourney).

[Richard]

There, you see, different people assess risk differently based on different criteria.

There is risk associated with any business venture. I would bet on MLS enduring and achieving break even long before I would on yet another startup Canadian league that will always be second fiddle to MLS.

I wouldn't worry too much about participation in a continental MLS ruling Canada out of representation at regional level. I am quite sure something would be worked out with CONCACAF, especially as I suspect once there is a Toronto MLS franchise, Vancouver and Montreal will not be far behind which will only improve our prospects for regional participation.

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

There, you see, different people assess risk differently based on different criteria.

There is risk associated with any business venture. I would bet on MLS enduring and achieving break even long before I would on yet another startup Canadian league that will always be second fiddle to MLS.

I wouldn't worry too much about participation in a continental MLS ruling Canada out of representation at regional level. I am quite sure something would be worked out with CONCACAF, especially as I suspect once there is a Toronto MLS franchise, Vancouver and Montreal will not be far behind which will only improve our prospects for regional participation.

The three team Canadian league that was proposed would require minimal start up costs, as all three teams involved have been going concerns for quiet a number of years now. Some have been around a lot longer than the MLS has. Just because, as you put it, we would always play second fiddle to the U.S. does that mean we shouldn't even try? The proposal would require only an additional four games to be played to a system that is already in place. The financial risks involved would, as River City has pointed out, be immaterial compared to the financial returns that would be realized from participating in a major international tournament. This point is independent from whether or not a prospective Toronto based MLS team could also earn entry into that same tournament. Why would you be opposed to supporting a guaranteed Canadian entry? You could support both a Toronto entry in the MLS and a Canadian league. Living in the lower mainland I'm asuming it would be easier for you to attend a Whitecaps game then a Toronto MLS game? If the MLS is a superior brand that you seek, then do you also cheer for the U.S. national team when they play Canada, because they are also superior? Are you by chance American? The reason I ask is you really piss me off. You never offer any creative ideas, all you do is critique them. Saying to River City, "If you actually did have that kind of cash I suggest you might feel differently from the way you do now." Do you have that kind of cash, Richard? And statements like, "I am quite sure something would be worked out with CONCACAF." How can you be sure of anything CONCACAF might or might not do?

[River City]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

There, you see, different people assess risk differently based on different criteria.

There is risk associated with any business venture. I would bet on MLS enduring and achieving break even long before I would on yet another startup Canadian league that will always be second fiddle to MLS.

I wouldn't worry too much about participation in a continental MLS ruling Canada out of representation at regional level. I am quite sure something would be worked out with CONCACAF, especially as I suspect once there is a Toronto MLS franchise, Vancouver and Montreal will not be far behind which will only improve our prospects for regional participation.

As for Canadian leagues playing second fiddle to the US, the CFL doesn't even compare to College Footbal, but yet it endures.

As for Concacaf, the issue of Toronto representing MLS won't even come to the bargaining table, since the league itself would most likely kibosh it.

C'mon 6/49 - let me prove my theory right...

[Richard]

Sure the CFL endures, but it only employs players who can't make it onto an NFL team. Same applies to the USL, they take players who can't make it onto an MLS team. A domestic Canadian league would be one step below that again, do we really want that? Would it really serve Canadian soccer and our national team players better.

As Robert so emphatically points out and at the risk of pissing him off even more, what the MLS or CONCACAF might decide regarding regional participation by Canada is anybody's guess. I'd put money on their accommodating Canada though.

Suggesting the three Canadian USL clubs would be interested in jumping ship to a Canadian league is nothing more than a pipedream. The more successful they are the more likely they are to seek to join the MLS. The Whitecaps' Bob Lennarduzzi has already said publicly the club is interested in the MLS.

[Richard]

Because I bring an element of rationality and practical business sense to discussions of what otherwise are often somewhat hairbrained and even totally unrealistic dreams that have little or no chance of ever coming to fruition does not mean I am negative about Canadian soccer, quite the contrary. I'm sorry I piss you off Robert but having to face harsh reality sometimes really does suck. You just can't please all the people all the time.

[youllneverwalkalone]

I don't have the patience to sift through all these pages -my apologies in advance. Why can't the status quo prevail -Whitecaps, Impact, Lynx in the USL or MLS; Victoria United in the PCSL; Hamilton Thunder in CPSL, etc- and still have a Canadian league a la the champions league (in spirit I mean). Couldn't a national tournament be run without too much in the way of additional capital expenditure? Why couldn't the champion of such a competition participate in the continental championship? Seems to me this is pretty doable. I'd much rather watch Hamilton v Victoria on TV than one more hand of hold'em.

[Guest HamiltonSteelers]

quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

I'd much rather watch Hamilton v Victoria on TV than one more hand of hold'em.

Though I agree, if nothing more than out of bias, unfortunately the ratings read otherwise. I think we'd all be shocked at the ratings poker does.

I realize that the MLS and a splintering of the ranks are an inevitability. I would never expect the Impact to join the CPSL, nor would I expect St. Catherines Roma to join the USL div 1. What concerns me is the overall health of the game. Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver, as it stands, can all boast playing at the highest level of soccer in the country. If one moves up, the other two can no longer claim that.

Though we have pro/semi-pro/amateur clubs in a highly organized fashion over 3 distinct levels of play, I do believe that an Open Cup would be beneficial. I would love to see Toronto MLS STILL get handed a beating by the Impact in the Open Cup. If parity can be found in one annual single-knock out competition, if there is any interest in the game on a national domestic level, this will prove it at a low risk factor.

I'd rather have the water tested, rather than cannonballed into.

[River City]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Sure the CFL endures, but it only employs players who can't make it onto an NFL team. Same applies to the USL, they take players who can't make it onto an MLS team. A domestic Canadian league would be one step below that again, do we really want that? Would it really serve Canadian soccer and our national team players better.

As Robert so emphatically points out and at the risk of pissing him off even more, what the MLS or CONCACAF might decide regarding regional participation by Canada is anybody's guess. I'd put money on their accommodating Canada though.

Suggesting the three Canadian USL clubs would be interested in jumping ship to a Canadian league is nothing more than a pipedream. The more successful they are the more likely they are to seek to join the MLS. The Whitecaps' Bob Lennarduzzi has already said publicly the club is interested in the MLS.

Yes the CFL is an inferior product to the NFL and College Ball, but try telling that to CFL fans. The Eskimos have awsome attendance figures, the Sask Roughrider fans take over any town hosting the Grey Cup, there is parity through the league. Just because it won't be the same calibre as the NFL, doesn't mean they should cease operations and go home.

Yes the idea of having the three A-League teams jump ship to form a CSL is a pipedream. So what? That's the point of the thread. To discuss the various possibilities of a new Canadian league.

The one idea I prefer is to have a CSA sanctioned open cup for the winners of the various regional leagues as well as the A-League teams. It's not in the calibre of the UEFA cup, but it's a start, and someday, the Whitecaps could be playing Guadalajara (Chivas) for the CONCACAF championship.

I apologise for not updating the CSL section of my old website, but we need more ideas at this point. Rationality and common sense will come into it once the various options are listed and compared.

This thread will never die![]

[Robert]

quote:

This thread will never die![]

Damn right! This has been the most interactive thread on Voyageurs and reflects that the demand for a Canadian Soccer League is the single most important issue for most Canadian soccer fans. And we will continue to search for that ultimate format that will be the successful solution to attain this goal. This current thread has had over 200 replies in just over a months time, which is equal to the over 200 replies the first thread on this topic had, before a careless moderator "accidentally" deleted it. The only thread that comes close is the, "Grandfather of all Canucks Abroad thread" which has received 346 replies over a period of almost two years. However, that thread is mostly inclined to presenting information, rather than to be interactive. The 346 replies the Grandfather has received comes from 24,573 readers, or a reply from 1 out of every 71 readers, for a reader response of 1.4%. Whereas the current "New Canadian League Thread..." has had 212 replies from 4,160 readers, or a reply from 1 out of every 19 readers, for a reader reponses of 5.3%. It unfortunate that the CSA fails to take note of what is important to Canadian soccer fans, and continue to operate unsuccessfully based on what they believe the Canadian soccer public deserves.

[L.T.]

Of course, how many of those replies are from people named Robert & Richard?

[Calgary Boomer]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Sure the CFL endures, but it only employs players who can't make it onto an NFL team. Same applies to the USL, they take players who can't make it onto an MLS team. A domestic Canadian league would be one step below that again, do we really want that? Would it really serve Canadian soccer and our national team players better.

As Robert so emphatically points out and at the risk of pissing him off even more, what the MLS or CONCACAF might decide regarding regional participation by Canada is anybody's guess. I'd put money on their accommodating Canada though.

Suggesting the three Canadian USL clubs would be interested in jumping ship to a Canadian league is nothing more than a pipedream. The more successful they are the more likely they are to seek to join the MLS. The Whitecaps' Bob Lennarduzzi has already said publicly the club is interested in the MLS.

NO HE DID NOT! He said the Whitecaps will be in "the best calibre league in North America". Greg Kerfoot HATES it when people link the Whitecaps to MLS. BCTV spun it that way by using all the MLS footage when running the story. The fact is...Kerfoot is not going to pay a 10 million dollar expansion fee to lose control of players his youth system develops.

And comparing the current CFL to a new CSL is STUPID! The CFL's budgets are way higher because the rosters and administration is bigger...they need</u> an average 20,000 fans to make it. A new CSL doesn't! The CSL would need an average 4,000 fans to function, and they'd be growing their business prudently if they could one day average over 6,000 like Junior hockey.

[Richard]

OK, which is the best calibre league in north America?

The new CSL you are describing would not attract Canada's top players and would still be one step below USL1. It would thus really be little more than an elite amateur league and therefore unlikely to attract the crowds you say will be needed to support it.