Massive Attack Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 Turf war erupts over Ivor Wynne's new surface Hamilton's CFL stadium was resurfaced to accommodate the Ti-Cats, which upset soccer enthusiasts in the city. http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/story/10561427097048.shtml?sport=soccer&STORY_OID=10561427097048 (posted Jun. 20, 4:57PM EDT) HAMILTON -- A turf war has erupted over Hamilton's new artificial grass surface at Ivor Wynne Stadium. Soccer proponents say the city has blown an opportunity to host mens' and womens' national soccer events because the stadium's new artificial turf can't meet international soccer standards. The problem with the $1.5-million AstroPlay turf is it comes with tufted or stitched-in lines for the Canadian Football League's Hamilton Tiger-Cat games. Those lines may not be adequately covered up to meet the requirements of world soccer governing body FIFA. Without FIFA approval, Hamilton is unable to bid on any Canadian women's soccer events or any of the 11 national men's World Cup qualifying events that will take place starting next year, says Kevan Pipe, chief operating officer of the Canadian Soccer Association. “We want to be paying tenants of your facility,” Pipe told the Hamilton Spectator. “It is puzzling why the city went through the thought process that it did.” He added that crowds of 15,000 to 20,000 for national team games are becoming the norm as the popularity of the game continues to increase in Canada. Pipe said Commonwealth Stadium in Edmonton, Frank Clair Stadium in Otttawa and Molson Stadium in Montreal are expected to be the only FIFA-approved facilities in Canada that can host international soccer events. “They are going to get 100 per cent of the events,” Pipe said. Hamilton councillor Chad Collins wanted to know why a multi-sport surface wasn't installed. “From my perspective we have dropped the ball,” he said. “It seems we have missed out on a revenue source. It was a golden opportunity to utilize Ivor Wynne Stadium on a more regular basis and have less dark nights.” Domenic Lunardo, the city's director of fleet and facilities, said city staff were aware the new turf would include tufted lines, but said they would provide better value since they would reduce ongoing maintenance costs. Lunardo said he is still investigating whether the lines can be painted over so the facility can host FIFA-sanctioned events. Ironically Molson Stadium will also feature tufted lines. But Field Turf, the Montreal-based company which bid and lost on the Hamilton job but is installing new turf in the Montreal facility, has patent-pending technology to cover the lines, making the field suitable for international play. The Canadian women's senior team is scheduled to play Brazil in Montreal on July 17. ------------------------- "I'm going to buy a gun and start a war, If you can tell me something worth fighting for" A Rush of Blood To The Head - Coldplay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ed Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 The city elects Sheila Copps every 4 years. How can you be surprised by their decision on the turf? And here I am writing from Alberta. Yeesh. We all have our crosses to bear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 What happened to Winnipeg having a FIFA-approved stadium? You know, the one we played half of our qualifiers in last time round. It isn't on Pipe's list. I think he must mean that the three stadiums he listed are the only large-seating-capacity stadiums in Canada that will meet with FIFA approval. Otherwise they had better re-schedule the Olympic qualifier being held in New Brunswick in September (the location of which is a good idea, as it ensures a slightly shorter flight for our European-based Olympic team players). Even the wolf can learn. Even the sheep can turn. Even the frog can become at last the prince. - Peter Hammill, Over (1977) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted June 20, 2003 Share Posted June 20, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca What happened to Winnipeg having a FIFA-approved stadium? You know, the one we played half of our qualifiers in last time round. It isn't on Pipe's list. I think he must mean that the three stadiums he listed are the only large-seating-capacity stadiums in Canada that will meet with FIFA approval. Otherwise they had better re-schedule the Olympic qualifier being held in New Brunswick in September (the location of which is a good idea, as it ensures a slightly shorter flight for our European-based Olympic team players). Even the wolf can learn. Even the sheep can turn. Even the frog can become at last the prince. - Peter Hammill, Over (1977) Thought the same thing about Winnipeg, but maybe the CSA is thinking bigger? I mean 3,500 v Panama wasn't very nice to see... As for NB, wouldn't the flight go to Toronto and then to NB??? Allez l'Impact! Allez les Rouges! Allons Ultras! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoyleG Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 Showed the new surface on TSN during the Ti-Cats home opener. The soccer lines are there painted in bright yellow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoyleG Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 Showed the new surface on TSN during the Ti-Cats home opener. The soccer lines are there painted in bright yellow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 Sorry, but I don't see the desired national team opponents willing to play on a synthetic surface of any kind. I don't understand why artificial surfaces are so important for these small stadiums. Grow technologies and new grass varieties exist that make natural grass easier to maintain. Heck, we build multi-million dollar golf courses. For a small stadium, like Ivor Wynne and the Turf Grass Institute up Highway 6 in Guelph, it seems to me the real opportunity lost is a natural surface... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 Sorry, but I don't see the desired national team opponents willing to play on a synthetic surface of any kind. I don't understand why artificial surfaces are so important for these small stadiums. Grow technologies and new grass varieties exist that make natural grass easier to maintain. Heck, we build multi-million dollar golf courses. For a small stadium, like Ivor Wynne and the Turf Grass Institute up Highway 6 in Guelph, it seems to me the real opportunity lost is a natural surface... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Daniel Thought the same thing about Winnipeg, but maybe the CSA is thinking bigger? I mean 3,500 v Panama wasn't very nice to see... As for NB, wouldn't the flight go to Toronto and then to NB??? Allez l'Impact! Allez les Rouges! Allons Ultras! I would have thought the flight(s) from Europe would go to Gander, Newfoundland or Halifax & then to N.B.. Even the wolf can learn. Even the sheep can turn. Even the frog can become at last the prince. - Peter Hammill, Over (1977) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Daniel Thought the same thing about Winnipeg, but maybe the CSA is thinking bigger? I mean 3,500 v Panama wasn't very nice to see... As for NB, wouldn't the flight go to Toronto and then to NB??? Allez l'Impact! Allez les Rouges! Allons Ultras! I would have thought the flight(s) from Europe would go to Gander, Newfoundland or Halifax & then to N.B.. Even the wolf can learn. Even the sheep can turn. Even the frog can become at last the prince. - Peter Hammill, Over (1977) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Canuck Oranje Sorry, but I don't see the desired national team opponents willing to play on a synthetic surface of any kind. I don't understand why artificial surfaces are so important for these small stadiums. Grow technologies and new grass varieties exist that make natural grass easier to maintain. Heck, we build multi-million dollar golf courses. For a small stadium, like Ivor Wynne and the Turf Grass Institute up Highway 6 in Guelph, it seems to me the real opportunity lost is a natural surface... Ivor Wynne is a "small" stadium? Not by Canadian standards, I think it seats close to 30,000. Even the wolf can learn. Even the sheep can turn. Even the frog can become at last the prince. - Peter Hammill, Over (1977) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massive Attack Posted June 21, 2003 Author Share Posted June 21, 2003 Grass is a pain in the ass to take care of (especially on a field that will be used for both soccer and Canadian football) in Canada. Also, I think the CSA shouldn't cry about the field in Hamilton now. Where was the CSA involvement in the Ivor Wynne field issue when they first decided to put fake grass in? The CSA should have been involved earlier on, enticing the city with international games. ------------------------- "I'm going to buy a gun and start a war, If you can tell me something worth fighting for" A Rush of Blood To The Head - Coldplay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattbin Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 Good old Hamilton, I miss it so... actually I was at the pre-season Ti-Cats game and the turf looked freakin' awesome. Much better than the crap they've had on there in the past. But anyhow, it's astounding that they didn't put any thought into multiple uses for the stadium. They can barely afford to keep the Ti-Cats in there (though that pre-season game even drew more than 20,000). But this is typical of Hamilton, always planning for twenty years ago. They'll be able to host the Ti-Cats and the city's high school soccer and football championships, and for the rest of the time it's the Big Empty Box on Balsam. Oh, and it seats just about 29,000--a great size for soccer internationals, you'd think... Allez les Rouges, M@ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 My point still stands.. 30,000 or 5,000. Secondly, How many home games for football? 9 and playoff? Grass may be a pain in the ass but it hasn't stop northern soccer clubs in England from playing through rain sleet and snow. what 24 games plus cup games (if not a shared facility)? It seems to me that the southern Ontario climate will allow grass to grow fine with proper irrigation and drainage. This has more to do with attitude than alternative uses for the stadium.. The trend in baseball is to go back to natural grass. And 30,000 would have made a nice sized soccer stadium.. quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca Ivor Wynne is a "small" stadium? Not by Canadian standards, I think it seats close to 30,000. Even the wolf can learn. Even the sheep can turn. Even the frog can become at last the prince. - Peter Hammill, Over (1977) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 And yes the CSA did drop the ball on this one, too(Or should we say, lost possession of the ball). Probably looking too far down the QEW to notice. quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack Grass is a pain in the ass to take care of (especially on a field that will be used for both soccer and Canadian football) in Canada. Also, I think the CSA shouldn't cry about the field in Hamilton now. Where was the CSA involvement in the Ivor Wynne field issue when they first decided to put fake grass in? The CSA should have been involved earlier on, enticing the city with international games. ------------------------- "I'm going to buy a gun and start a war, If you can tell me something worth fighting for" A Rush of Blood To The Head - Coldplay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Daniel Thought the same thing about Winnipeg, but maybe the CSA is thinking bigger? I mean 3,500 v Panama wasn't very nice to see... As for NB, wouldn't the flight go to Toronto and then to NB??? Allez l'Impact! Allez les Rouges! Allons Ultras! :(Heyyy. Now I'm not making excuses for that poor turn out against Panama but let's try to be fair here. October in Winnipeg isn't exactly footballing weather unless your football involves three downs and a quarterback allthough somehow I recall not a bad day if pretty damned windy. And add a home side who hadn't scored a goal yet in that round of qualifying in a match against a side which had also been eliminated with two matchs remaining in the round. Yeah, great, that'll sell. (By the way, my own excuses for not being there had nothing to the above. Was allmost able to make it out, but it just didn't happen.) "Minority of one" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimglow Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 We also have to take into consideration the unwillingness for other mainstream sports to help out soccer. They know as well as all of us that it's the sleeping giant, and what's good for soccer is bad for them. This makes it complicated when football teams, for instance, insist that they will not share a stadium. They do this by using the lines argument. Mimglow, Ottawa _________________________ Where are the weapons of mass destruction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ed Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Mimglow We also have to take into consideration the unwillingness for other mainstream sports to help out soccer. They know as well as all of us that it's the sleeping giant, and what's good for soccer is bad for them. .... Mimglow, Ottawa _________________________ Where are the weapons of mass destruction? You and Dennis (or whatever his handle is now) should get together to out this conspiracy!! Gotta agree with Cheeta on the Panama vs Winnipeg remarks. Did get to see Canada score though, which was a rare occurence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimglow Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 I don't think there's a conspiracy. I believe it's a subconscious, look-out-for-yourself type attitude. Just ask any mainstream sportswriter (well, maybe not any, but the majority of them) if soccer will ever be succesful in this country, and a goofy, condescending look comes over their face as they start to make fun of soccer. That's the same type of attitude one takes when one feels threatened by something, and has no solid argument to shoot it down. I'll never forget Dean Brown (Ottawa Senators play-by-play guy) on a panel with Wayne Scanlan (Ottawa Citizen) and Morgan Quarry on a CBC panel just before last year's World Cup. I was a Dean Brown fan before I watched him on that panel and act like capital "J" Jack*ss. The "real sports fans don't care about soccer" argument. Oh, how I will never forget or forgive him for that. I firmly believe it's self-preservation at work on a subconscious level, and not on a "let's get together in a dark little pub and plan against soccer" type of thing going on. Mainstream sports journalists don't have the required soccer knowledge to write about it, and if the sport blows up in this country then their livelihood would be threatened. Their best option is to belittle it. Anyway, that's what I think is happening. Mimglow, Ottawa _________________________ Where are the weapons of mass destruction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted June 21, 2003 Share Posted June 21, 2003 With almost 50% (think 44% actually) of the Census Metro area of Toronto being born outside of Canada, looks like there may be a media opportunity there. I am sure there are more things including soccer that these residents have interest in and are not being told about.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoyleG Posted June 22, 2003 Share Posted June 22, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Canuck Oranje My point still stands.. 30,000 or 5,000. Secondly, How many home games for football? 9 and playoff? Grass may be a pain in the ass but it hasn't stop northern soccer clubs in England from playing through rain sleet and snow. what 24 games plus cup games (if not a shared facility)? It seems to me that the southern Ontario climate will allow grass to grow fine with proper irrigation and drainage. This has more to do with attitude than alternative uses for the stadium.. The trend in baseball is to go back to natural grass. And 30,000 would have made a nice sized soccer stadium.. It's hard to justify putting in a grass field if their is no guarentee of long-term use for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coppercanuck Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 Boy this thread has left a bad taste in my mouth:(! First item is the CSA... what happened to Toronto? Hamilton is not Toronto! Close in distance, that is all. If the CSA wants a grass field to play qualifiers on they have two choices; 1- build it yourself or 2- get someone else to build it for you. The CSA has a big bag of cash from FIFA in their hands and they are acting like an indecisive kid in a candy store. They have the money and the 11ish games coming up prior to 2006. Some city in Canada must want that kind of attention and the big bag o'cash to help build it. I do agree that fake turf is not the answer for soccer at this level. Higher profile teams don't want to play on it although the will train on it. It has become a "which came first" situation. We all complain there are no Nat team home games but there is no stadium to play in (except in Edmonton). So build a stadium, but that is no guarantee of more home games. AAAHHH!!!! Please someone correct me if I'm wrong.... Canada in this country has been built from the grassroots up. Building the opposite direction, top-down, takes an American-sized bag of money. There are lots of baby steps that the CSA could have taken to make some money and stay in the face of the Canadian media and public. They, for whatever reason, have chosen to attempt to skip these steps. They include but are not limited to, the Canada Cup, Carabana Cup, Skydome Cup, Columbus 500 Cup?, Matthews Cup?, etc. Not to mention the WC qualifiers, Gold Cup events and other development teams of which there are now 3 on the men's side alone. The CSA has done very little (IMHO) to work with other group to get some stadiums off the ground. Here is a short list: Athletics Canada (I know, I know ... you all hate tracks. Look at some of the biggest stadiums in the world and you'll see tracks) Football Canada Canadian Football League Lacrosse Canada (field version is bigger in the USA) Rugby Canada Canada Games Council Canadian Colleges Athletic Association Canadian Interuniversity Sport Canadian Olympic Association (maybe one of the list that the CSA has talked with, but so has every other sports federation) Canadian Special Olympics Commonwealth Games Association There are also Pan Am Games, World University Games and Jeux de la Francophonie. All these groups have national, world championships and events that require some seating or a stadium. Getting together and splitting the cost would be very good for both sides. One of the CSA's recent blunders was the Canada Games in London, ON who once the games were complete put artificial turf on their stadium. Head's up CSA, the 2005 games are in Regina, where is the soccer going to be played? Second item....the media. If the CSA does nothing to show the media, the media will do nothing. enough said. ----------------------- aka JTPenney "We love peace. We use our might to make the world a more peaceful place." George W. Bush Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamiltonfan Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 what about the build stadium that they are going to build in hamilton if the get the Cominwealth games in 2010. It is going to seat 45 000 i think. Is that going to be grass?? www.cpsl.ca www.hamiltonthunder.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattbin Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 quote:Originally posted by coppercanuck ... what happened to Toronto? Hamilton is not Toronto! Close in distance, that is all. Well the one argument in Hamilton's favour is that it has needed a stadium far more for far longer. In the time that Varsity, Skydome, and Exhibition Stadium existed, Hamilton has had only Ivor Wynne, which has needed replacing since the '70s. It's not that Skydome is the solution to the problem of a Toronto soccer stadium, it's that it might be hard to justify spending millions on a stadium for a city that already has a huge and relatively new one. Which, incidentally, has drawn very poorly for both of its home teams (Argos and Jays) in recent years. Hamilton has either flirted with or surpassed an average of 20,000 fans per Ti-Cats game in the last ten years or so. So I think there's an argument for a stadium in Hamilton, other than the far more important argument that I would really, really like it. Allez les Rouges, M@ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJT Posted June 24, 2003 Share Posted June 24, 2003 quote:Originally posted by coppercanuck The CSA has a big bag of cash from FIFA in their hands and they are acting like an indecisive kid in a candy store. The "big bag" is only about $600,000, intended for studies and architectural plans. There is still the big problem of getting the millions required to actually build the thing. Also, on the Hamilton vs. Toronto thing, it's not an either-or situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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