Turf War in Hamilton

[Canuck Oranje]

I don't see putting natural grass in Ivor Wynne being a decision that would have required those funds.. I just think the city of Hamilton may have been swayed into doing so if the CSA had indicated that it would consider playing some National team games there if they did. I am sure that the Ti-Cats would not have been opposed to natural grass.

[Gian-Luca]

According to a couple of recent Globe & Mail articles, the CSA will be announcing the new Toronto stadium in July. As DJT said, its not an either/or situation - the CSA would like to have useable soccer stadiums in both cities.

Even the wolf can learn. Even the sheep can turn. Even the frog can become at last the prince. - Peter Hammill, Over (1977)

[mattbin]

Yeah--Hamilton, Toronto, and Ottawa would make for one heck of a Gold Cup/WWC/Olympic Qualifying/WU-19/U-20 tournament, eh?

That's assuming that Frank Clair is up to snuff. Hah!

Allez les Rouges,

M@

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by coppercanuck

Boy this thread has left a bad taste in my mouth:(!

First item is the CSA... what happened to Toronto? Hamilton is not Toronto! Close in distance, that is all. If the CSA wants a grass field to play qualifiers on they have two choices; 1- build it yourself or 2- get someone else to build it for you. The CSA has a big bag of cash from FIFA in their hands and they are acting like an indecisive kid in a candy store. They have the money and the 11ish games coming up prior to 2006. Some city in Canada must want that kind of attention and the big bag o'cash to help build it.

AS DJT pointed out, the FIFA grant is around $600K. The CSA's budget is set under $9 Million Dollars. A stadium that would a reputable standards would be at least $30 Million.

quote:Originally posted by coppercanuck

Please someone correct me if I'm wrong....

Canada in this country has been built from the grassroots up. Building the opposite direction, top-down, takes an American-sized bag of money. There are lots of baby steps that the CSA could have taken to make some money and stay in the face of the Canadian media and public. They, for whatever reason, have chosen to attempt to skip these steps. They include but are not limited to, the Canada Cup, Carabana Cup, Skydome Cup, Columbus 500 Cup?, Matthews Cup?, etc. Not to mention the WC qualifiers, Gold Cup events and other development teams of which there are now 3 on the men's side alone.

They haven't skipped and steps since the Canadian Media is known for having a rather short memeory. All of those cup torunaments were redundant since the CSA lost more money than it gained. Partisan anti-Canadian crowds didn't help either.

quote:Originally posted by coppercanuck

The CSA has done very little (IMHO) to work with other group to get some stadiums off the ground. Here is a short list:

Athletics Canada (I know, I know ... you all hate tracks. Look at some of the biggest stadiums in the world and you'll see tracks)

Football Canada

Canadian Football League

Lacrosse Canada (field version is bigger in the USA)

Rugby Canada

Canada Games Council

Canadian Colleges Athletic Association

Canadian Interuniversity Sport

Canadian Olympic Association (maybe one of the list that the CSA has talked with, but so has every other sports federation)

Canadian Special Olympics

Commonwealth Games Association

Your really overshooting here. Try and aim for the real picture.

-Athletics Canada is looking more for training facilities than any large stadiums.

-Football Canada leaves teh stadium issue up to the local governing bodies, which have plenty of stadia to suit tehir needs.

-Many CFL clubs have shown not to have keen intrests to work with the CSA.

-Indoor lacrosse is king in Canada. Simple as that.

-Rugby Canada my be lucky to get a couple of games in the summer from tourist sides. They would be more content at the moment to use a smaller facility since the numbers aren't there for a larger one.

-The CCAA and CIS have their own facilities in most sports and wouldn't be willing to work with the CSA.

-The COA and CGA have their own agendas to begin with.

-Special Olympics is a non-starter.

quote:Originally posted by coppercanuck

There are also Pan Am Games, World University Games and Jeux de la Francophonie. All these groups have national, world championships and events that require some seating or a stadium. Getting together and splitting the cost would be very good for both sides. One of the CSA's recent blunders was the Canada Games in London, ON who once the games were complete put artificial turf on their stadium. Head's up CSA, the 2005 games are in Regina, where is the soccer going to be played?

The stadia and other facilities for such events are already in place in most communities. TD Waterhouse stadium had liekly more to do with the UWO than anything else. If you even watch Canada Games soccer you would surely know that elaborate stadiums aren't needed.

quote:Originally posted by coppercanuck

Second item....the media. If the CSA does nothing to show the media, the media will do nothing. enough said.

You can promote soccer till the moon falls into the sea, the Media has it's own priorities.

[Canuck Oranje]

The same applies to upgrading the facility in general. What is Ivor Wynne used for now? CFL Football and maybe some City sporting activities. I don't see natural grass retricting its use much. And Cost? How many parks and playing fields does Hamilton maintain now? I think maintenance is something that gets used to justify their decision rather than as a basis for choice. And I thought that was why municipalities charge user fees for playing fields. I would doubt that natural grass was even considered. And if no one suggested it..

And hey.. As for long term use guarantees.. It has been done before. Copps Coliseum comes to mind. What was the price tag on that? In Waterloo, we now have a municipal golf course that is costing us tens of millions. Don't see any long term use guarantees in that either.

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

It's hard to justify putting in a grass field if their is no guarentee of long-term use for it.

[coppercanuck]

DoyleG, you make some really good points. I had forgotten the size of the FIFA grant but there may be other grant money available from other world governing bodies.

I do disagree with the comment that the CCAA and CIS want nothing to do with the CSA. I believe that most of the University fields in the summer months are not used near as much as they are in the fall. Universities are always looking for new sources of revenue and a field rental might be a way to do it.

Most Canada Games in the recent past have had a central stadium used for the opening and closing ceremonies. If this facility could be used for soccer too it would be a bonus. For example the Jeux Canada Games Stadium on the campus of UNBSJ in Saint John New Brunswick had to pull down a set of stands (on the far side of the grand stand) because they were unsafe. They had not been used in years so why bother replacing them. If more use had been made of the stadium, it might be in better shape. And this goes for most smaller stadiums in Canada. Use it or lose it.

The Rugby teams in Canada, I would argue, are on the same level as Soccer on the edge. They are both trying to grow and maybe together they can do it. Or is Rugby doing it right by just getting out there and tring to play more games? The Churchill Cup is a great example of how they are tring to do this. 8 international games on 4 double header nights at Thunderbird Stadium. I watch one game on Sportsnet and I wondered why Thunderbird Stadium is never mentioned as a posible soccer venue? Natural grass, appears to have a good number of seats at about 3500. Oh and for the record the men's National Rugby team is playing 3 games against NZ and 2 more against Georgia at home in Canada as they gear up for the World Cup in Australia in October. Soccer Canada can not say the same!

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aka JTPenney

"We love peace. We use our might to make the world a more peaceful place." George W. Bush

[coppercanuck]

DoyleG, you make some really good points. I had forgotten the size of the FIFA grant but there may be other grant money available from other world governing bodies.

I do disagree with the comment that the CCAA and CIS want nothing to do with the CSA. I believe that most of the University fields in the summer months are not used near as much as they are in the fall. Universities are always looking for new sources of revenue and a field rental might be a way to do it.

Most Canada Games in the recent past have had a central stadium used for the opening and closing ceremonies. If this facility could be used for soccer too it would be a bonus. For example the Jeux Canada Games Stadium on the campus of UNBSJ in Saint John New Brunswick had to pull down a set of stands (on the far side of the grand stand) because they were unsafe. They had not been used in years so why bother replacing them. If more use had been made of the stadium, it might be in better shape. And this goes for most smaller stadiums in Canada. Use it or lose it.

The Rugby teams in Canada, I would argue, are on the same level as Soccer on the edge. They are both trying to grow and maybe together they can do it. Or is Rugby doing it right by just getting out there and tring to play more games? The Churchill Cup is a great example of how they are tring to do this. 8 international games on 4 double header nights at Thunderbird Stadium. I watch one game on Sportsnet and I wondered why Thunderbird Stadium is never mentioned as a posible soccer venue? Natural grass, appears to have a good number of seats at about 3500. Oh and for the record the men's National Rugby team is playing 3 games against NZ and 2 more against Georgia at home in Canada as they gear up for the World Cup in Australia in October. Soccer Canada can not say the same!

-----------------------

aka JTPenney

"We love peace. We use our might to make the world a more peaceful place." George W. Bush

[DJT]

quote:Originally posted by coppercanuck

Oh and for the record the men's National Rugby team is playing 3 games against NZ and 2 more against Georgia at home in Canada as they gear up for the World Cup in Australia in October. Soccer Canada can not say the same!

I'm not trying to defend the lack of home games, but it is unfair to compare these two situations, given that the rugby team is going to the World Cup in October. If our soccer team was going to the World Cup in a few months then we'd see a general increase in the number of friendlies and certainly in the number of home friendlies as well (besides the fact that our players and opponents would be easier to obtain, there would actually be hype about the team) --- we're seeing this with the women's team right now (yeah, the women have always played at home, but not nearly as many games as we're seeing this summer).

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by coppercanuck

DoyleG, you make some really good points. I had forgotten the size of the FIFA grant but there may be other grant money available from other world governing bodies.

I do disagree with the comment that the CCAA and CIS want nothing to do with the CSA. I believe that most of the University fields in the summer months are not used near as much as they are in the fall. Universities are always looking for new sources of revenue and a field rental might be a way to do it.

Most universities do that already for their facilities so that's a mute point.

quote:Originally posted by coppercanuck

Most Canada Games in the recent past have had a central stadium used for the opening and closing ceremonies. If this facility could be used for soccer too it would be a bonus. For example the Jeux Canada Games Stadium on the campus of UNBSJ in Saint John New Brunswick had to pull down a set of stands (on the far side of the grand stand) because they were unsafe. They had not been used in years so why bother replacing them. If more use had been made of the stadium, it might be in better shape. And this goes for most smaller stadiums in Canada. Use it or lose it.

The games spread out the competitions. It's not like the Olympics and it won't be.

quote:Originally posted by coppercanuck

The Rugby teams in Canada, I would argue, are on the same level as Soccer on the edge. They are both trying to grow and maybe together they can do it. Or is Rugby doing it right by just getting out there and tring to play more games? The Churchill Cup is a great example of how they are tring to do this. 8 international games on 4 double header nights at Thunderbird Stadium. I watch one game on Sportsnet and I wondered why Thunderbird Stadium is never mentioned as a posible soccer venue? Natural grass, appears to have a good number of seats at about 3500. Oh and for the record the men's National Rugby team is playing 3 games against NZ and 2 more against Georgia at home in Canada as they gear up for the World Cup in Australia in October. Soccer Canada can not say the same!

People in Vancouver have voiced their opinions about Thunderbird as a venue. The response isn't positive.

The Chruchill Cup had more to do with politics than anything. The English set up the toruney in order to gain Canada's vote to decide who would host the 2007 RWC. They got Canada's vote, but the bid was trounced by the French. England send what is usually a 'B-' side to the competiton.

The NZ team visiting is the Maroi touring side. The top players will be with the All Blacks during the Tri-Nations competition.

The Georgia match will be in Edmonton in August. I expect attendance the be around the same as tehy had for the RWCQ against Uruguay (3500 fans at $20/ticket).