State of the CCL / Voyageurs Cup

[Portuguese Sensation]

With the news that both the Vancouver Whitecaps and Montréal Impact are likely done with the USL - there's a possibility that neither team will be playing in a league next season.

Should both the Whitecaps and Impact be without a league, would they be allowed to compete for the Voyageurs Cup? If so, would teams from the CSL have a legitimate argument that they too should be allowed to compete in the tournament?

[Keegan]

Yes for sure, I think it should be opened up next year. Weren't they discussing adding more teams even before this happened?

[tmcmurph]

Seeing as the teams decide and they have set the bar I don't see them changing it. Even if Montreal and Vancouver play a different league they will play against competition much higher than CSL.

I think we will see the same 3 next year unless some other cities join the USL-1 or the breakaway league. If the latter then the CSL has a good opportunity to show that they are worthy of Vcup inclusion. The CSL could play their top team or allstar team in the breakaway league?

Just a thought.

[nazzer]

Well, in one of the stories that some USL boss dude has been quoted in he alluded to new Canadian teams joining USL1. Also, Montreal and Vancouver have both stated that they are fielding a team in some league next year, and the USSF has said that USL's threat of releasing all the players from TOA teams from their contracts is not happening, so Vancouver and Montreal will still have way better teams than any other soccer teams in the country that's not in MLS.

So yeah, the format should not change unless there's new Canadian teams in the USL1, or maybe USL2.

[Richard]

The format should not change. If the CSL is permitted to enter than all the regional leagues across the country should also be admitted. What makes the CSL so special?

[Vic]

Mathematics. Their league covers 2/3 of the people in the country. No other league covers an area over 1/5 that size.

[Richard]

So quality is now judged by quantity? Why shouldn't the top team from one of three or four BC leagues be admitted, what about the Alberta premier league? Sorry, your argument just does not stand up. The CSL as it is now is no better than several other leagues across the country so does not deserve any favourable treatment when it comes to the Voyageurs Cup. Besides, the three current teams would have to agree and I can't see that happening either, especially when all of them are eventually in MLS.

[Richard]

So quality is now judged by quantity? Why shouldn't the top team from one of three or four BC leagues be admitted, what about the Alberta premier league? Sorry, your argument just does not stand up. The CSL as it is now is no better than several other leagues across the country so does not deserve any favourable treatment when it comes to the Voyageurs Cup. Besides, the three current teams would have to agree and I can't see that happening either, especially when all of them are eventually in MLS.

[nazzer]

quote:Originally posted by Vic

Mathematics. Their league covers 2/3 of the people in the country. No other league covers an area over 1/5 that size.

Your premises don't even match up in your argument.

League A is the bestz!!! because they cover a large population base...

League B is the worstz!!! because they don't cover a large geographical area...

You're comparing apples to oranges.

[nazzer]

quote:Originally posted by Vic

Mathematics. Their league covers 2/3 of the people in the country. No other league covers an area over 1/5 that size.

Your premises don't even match up in your argument.

League A is the bestz!!! because they cover a large population base...

League B is the worstz!!! because they don't cover a large geographical area...

You're comparing apples to oranges.

[Vic]

What about the Nunavut Selects U8 team? Surely they have a constitutional right.

quote: If the CSL is permitted to enter than all the regional leagues across the country should also be admitted. What makes the CSL so special?

The CSL represents the large majority of the country and 5 times the people any other league does. I didn't say I agree with it, I said it is the answer to the question. And if you can't see that as a valid answer then that is communicative enough in and of itself.

[Vic]

What about the Nunavut Selects U8 team? Surely they have a constitutional right.

quote: If the CSL is permitted to enter than all the regional leagues across the country should also be admitted. What makes the CSL so special?

The CSL represents the large majority of the country and 5 times the people any other league does. I didn't say I agree with it, I said it is the answer to the question. And if you can't see that as a valid answer then that is communicative enough in and of itself.

[Richard]

It is an answer to be sure, but it is invalid.

[tmcmurph]

quote:Originally posted by Vic

Mathematics. Their league covers 2/3 of the people in the country. No other league covers an area over 1/5 that size.

Sorry but if you want to use population as a criteria then metro Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal still wins. They encompass the same territory as the CSL plus Montreal & Vancouver.

The big 3 cover coast to almost coast, they have the biggest following and best clubs. Look at what TFC did to what was basically a CSL team (TRA). That would add nothing to the Voyageur's Cup competition.

Now if the Caps and Impact plus others form a new league then have the CSL champs or allstars enter that league! Think of it as a promotion / relegation type thing.

In short you will have to play at the level of the big 3 to get into the V's cup.

[Vic]

I care little either way. They're obviously the only three teams the country should be sending regardless. Put another 10 or 10,000 teams in and the winner will still come from one of the three. Outside chance of someone sitting 10 deep and playing for a result but is that a team we want to send?

I haven't paid attention to the breakaway politics. Both teams must be pretty confident of their options or wouldn't be sitting on the side of the fence they are right now. I imagine they've already vetted this with the CSA.

[Daniel]

quote:Originally posted by Portuguese Sensation

With the news that both the Vancouver Whitecaps and Montréal Impact are likely done with the USL - there's a possibility that neither team will be playing in a league next season.

Possibility =/= probability.

We'll see those three teams competing next season.

[Duane Rollins1555362254]

quote:Originally posted by Daniel

Possibility =/= probability.

We'll see those three teams competing next season.

I don't think there is much doubt that it will be the same three teams and that we won't see an additional team until another team comes in at the USL-1 level.

The question for next year is whether the 'Caps and Impact will be in a league that is recognized by CONCACAF. If they aren't than TFC will get the CCL spot and the V-Cup will be for pride.

That would be bad news because I can't see TFC dressing anything other than a second choice team in the games if they are for nothing other than the trophy. And then we'd have to listen to all the bitching and moaning on here all year.

[the biologist]

quote:Originally posted by MediaGuy

The question for next year is whether the 'Caps and Impact will be in a league that is recognized by CONCACAF.

How in hell wouldn't CONCACAF recognize the league they're gonna play in ? If they come back in USLD1, there's no question here. If they start their breakaway league then they're gonna need both USSF's and CSA's official OK and that's what they're on the verge to get. Once that is acquired, there's just no reason for CONCACRAP not to accept to recognize such a league that would be no worse than what USLD1 was this year. I don't see why you're bringing this as being "The Question". CSA has one spot to give, if they decide to give it to the winner of the V's Cup, that's their business since that decides in a certain way the champion canadian club for the year, so "the most deserving" club to play in a champions league.

[the biologist]

CONCACAF Champions League Regulations

Rule 3.4</u>

The specific entry criteria for each Member Association, or Regional Association in the case of the CFU, shall be agreed between CONCACAF and the Member Association or Regional Association in question.

Rule 3.6</u>

As a matter of principle, teams shall earn the right to be entered by their National Association in the CCL through fair competition and sporting merit, usually through the existing national championship of the member association in question.

[michaeltfc91]

^ No reason to flip out...this is a question, although you're right that they most likely will get sanctioned by USSF, CSA, and CONCACAF according to the Lenarduzzi interview. Hopefully, this article (http://www.uslsoccer.com/home/380020.html) which states that Edmonton and Ottawa are interested in USL 1 in 2010 means that there will be once again a 5 team Voyageurs Cup.

Therefore the format would be

MLS: Toronto

TOA: Vancouver Montreal

USL 1: Edmonton Ottawa

5 teams means everyone plays each other once, half at home, half away.

Still everyone plays 4 games each to decide Championship.

Last matchday could have 4 of the 5 teams playing meaning they could set it up so no one will "let" the other team win or at least there will be no excuses like this year.

[the biologist]

^ Maybe it looked like this but I wasn't that</u> upset [] . But coming from "MediaGuy" who should have read first the CCL Regulations (I admit I myself took a while before doing so), I didn't understand the point. It was actually obvious to me the second I started to think about that, way before I went through the regulations. From what I've read in the past, I'm not surprised he's the one to consider doomed scenarios developing in favor of Toronto in questionable fashion.

Now I just hope a 5 team V's Cup is not a dream and becomes reality come 2011, the last year MTL will probably play in... out of MLS.

[Bxl Boy]

1/ The league recognized by Concacaf is the Canadian Championship, so no problem there

2/ As the Montreal Impact reserve team is the best team in CSL, how could the CSL ask for their champion to be in CC ? There's a huge conflict of interest there... And it will be more obvious when Vancouver and Montreal will enter MLS and have their reserve team in USL/TOA

[Duane Rollins1555362254]

quote:Originally posted by the biologist

^ Maybe it looked like this but I wasn't that</u> upset [] . But coming from "MediaGuy" who should have read first the CCL Regulations (I admit I myself took a while before doing so), I didn't understand the point. It was actually obvious to me the second I started to think about that, way before I went through the regulations. From what I've read in the past, I'm not surprised he's the one to consider doomed scenarios developing in favor of Toronto in questionable fashion.

Now I just hope a 5 team V's Cup is not a dream and becomes reality come 2011, the last year MTL will probably play in... out of MLS.

quote:Originally posted by the biologist

^ Maybe it looked like this but I wasn't that</u> upset [] . But coming from "MediaGuy" who should have read first the CCL Regulations (I admit I myself took a while before doing so), I didn't understand the point. It was actually obvious to me the second I started to think about that, way before I went through the regulations. From what I've read in the past, I'm not surprised he's the one to consider doomed scenarios developing in favor of Toronto in questionable fashion.

Now I just hope a 5 team V's Cup is not a dream and becomes reality come 2011, the last year MTL will probably play in... out of MLS.

Um, you're aware that there is a tad bit of politics involved with this game, right?

If you think the TOA teams are going to just up and start a league and automatically be sanctioned by the USSF and CSA, then you're being a bit naive. I actually asked this question directly to the CSA and never received an answer (which is odd. They always get back). That tells me that they don't know yet.

If the league isn't sanctioned by the governing bodies, it will be an outlaw league and I have strong doubts that its teams will be eligible for international play.

The problem won't come here. The 'Caps and Impact are too important to the Canadian system to run into resistance at the CSA level. The issue will be with the USSF. I suppose the CSA could sanction a two team league or something, but...

Just outright dismissing this as a question is more than a little bit defensive.

And what I’m saying doesn’t have a goddamn thing to do with wanting TFC to go to the CCL. I would not at all want to see a bye to the tournament, because it would ruin the drama of the V-Cup, which has been, in my opinion, the best thing to happen to Canadian club soccer in 20-years.

[Duane Rollins1555362254]

quote:Rule 3.4

The specific entry criteria for each Member Association, or Regional Association in the case of the CFU, shall be agreed between CONCACAF and the Member Association or Regional Association in question.

As I've written a few times already, when CONCACAF opend up the competition to include the Canadian entry they dictated to the CSA what teams would be eligible. At that time CONCACAF said clearly that no team below USL-1 could compete. The CSA then sanctioned the three team tournament that the clubs were already organizing and the rest is history.

CONCACAF has ALWAYS had the power in this negotiation. If they are unhappy with the competition they can simply name TFC as the entry or, if you want a real doom and gloom scenario, pull the spot altogether and give it to another federation.

quote:Rule 3.6

As a matter of principle, teams shall earn the right to be entered by their National Association in the CCL through fair competition and sporting merit, usually through the existing national championship of the member association in question.

See that word? Usually.

You know you’re talking about CONCACAF, right? The federation that makes things up as it goes along? It’s cute that you think they always follow their rules, especially ones, like these, that a second year law student could have a field day with.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by the biologist

How in hell wouldn't CONCACAF recognize the league they're gonna play in ? If they come back in USLD1, there's no question here. If they start their breakaway league then they're gonna need both USSF's and CSA's official OK and that's what they're on the verge to get. Once that is acquired, there's just no reason for CONCACRAP not to accept to recognize such a league that would be no worse than what USLD1 was this year. I don't see why you're bringing this as being "The Question". CSA has one spot to give, if they decide to give it to the winner of the V's Cup, that's their business since that decides in a certain way the champion canadian club for the year, so "the most deserving" club to play in a champions league.

You are turning this objective discussion into a partisan thing. Everybody here wants to see V-Cup continue because it is the best thing to have happened in club soccer in Canada.

What you are saying is wishfull thinking more than anything. What happens with the Voyageurs Cup right now is unknown but your making sound like its a given that all will fall into place for next year. Seems to me that, given ths situation, the minds of Montreal and White cap owners are on other things right now.

Maybe your right and they will get the immediate blessing of the USSF, the CSA and Concacaf. Then again, they might not. Or, it may take time and mean the the V-cup goes on a one year hiatus. Point is we dont know? and there are a lot of unknowns right now.