Canada v. China: Aug 9 2008

[Soju]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

...I don't like it either but there is no point in complaining because a giraffe cannot change the colour of its stripes. Its the culture of womens soccer in Canada along with the mini van, suburbia, and mom; and hockey....

...Even though the Chinese are technically superior...

I don't understand what this means. Pellerud had them for over one year. You're saying our players are so inept that a coach can't get them to play on the deck in this time? Why? That makes no sense at all. It's not like we're asking them to play a different sport we just need them to make a handful of changes to the team's strategy. There are women's and girl's teams across Canada playing all sorts of different strategies we are absolutely not resigned to "hoofing it". We need to keep fighting this crap everywhere we can including forums, in person, as coaches and as players, for the good of the game.

Why are China technically superior? Because they say they are? Well I say Canada are technically superior and I've watched a lot of both of these teams. Canada's trapping and first touch skills are superior. Their heading is superior. Their volleying is superior. Their shielding is superior. Where China look better is, no surprise, passing on the deck. China have a chance to showcase their alleged technical superiority because their system allows it. Canada still manages to show moments of flair despite being totally shackled offensively by Pellerud's system.

As an aside I give Pellerud a lot of credit for fielding a well organized defense and shutting China down. Aside from the set pieces I can't fault their work off the ball, well done.

[terpfan68]

In my opion a fair comment.

[Cheeta]

Thought Canada played way better off the ball than the Chinese, which surprised me. Not a great game for China today. Nerves, heat. Don't know but I expected more of them.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Soju

There are women's and girl's teams across Canada playing all sorts of different strategies we are absolutely not resigned to "hoofing it".

Nonsence, with all due appologises. That is another one of those long standing Voyageurs myths. Along with the one that comes up every time the attendance at a mens is less than desired, Its all the fault ( nothing else)of bad promotion and game marketing. Or, another one of those Voyageurs myths that states that you have to play games in Edmonton and not in the east because in Edmonton you will get only home support and no outsiders.

I have heard countless stories from Voyageurs telling us how they have seen in their community, town or club womens players who have very refined and high level of technical skills and appreciation for playing possession and using the width of the field. And, that its all and only the fault of Pellerud, that those players are excluded and that we play the way we do. Funny, but when I have walked by a park in Canada whereby girls were practising or playing ( be it rec soccer, University, high school etc), I only saw them mostly working on the strength of their kicks and speed and sprint drills. But much less the one touches and ball control. Its strenght, conditioning and athletecism thats the cultural backbone of womens soccer in Canada. And when you listen to womens players or commentator's talk and/or interviewed, its those elements of the game ( along with toughness and aggressiveness) that you most often hear discussed, not the individual ball skills or the soccer part. Nobody even notices or recognizes that.

Lastly, do you remember who coached the team before Pelerud? Do remember how much he was disliked by the Players? Do you remember how poor the results were compared to now?. I do have some recolection and yet, I do recalled seemly seeing teh ball on the pitch more often at that time. Doesn't that tell something about what women want to play?

[Tonka]

Long time lurker, first time poster. This board is a lifeline. Thank you all for your work in supporting Canadian Soccer.

I must admit I am little disapointed in some of the reaction in this thread. I thought the women played very well today. Perhaps one of their strongest matches in sometime and yet many here are still hung up on Pellerud and are making criticisms of the style of play. Lets focus on the positives at least during the duration of this tournament. Following its conclusion Pellerud will step down and we can have the discussion regarding coaching moving forward.

From what I saw today this team has a legitimate shot. Closing down all over the pitch. Franko and Chapman were immense. Just a little more creativity and finishing in the final third.

Interesting comments from Paul James on Korea DPR.

I have a question. Why are many watching online instead of on CBC which is showing all the matches in glorious HD??

Thank you.

[AlanDouglas]

Regarding tiebreakers, etc, Sweden only scoring the one goal is of no help to Canada. If Sweden beat us, then they will still finish ahead of us on goal difference, which (assuming Argentina doesn't win big over China) would leave us in third place, and very likely to progress.

If we finish third, then we will advance unless the following happens: N Korea gets a win or tie against Germany COMBINED with either Japan beating Norway or NZ beating the US. And even then it could come down to goals scored or FIFA fair play points or the drawing of lots. Japan beating Norway isn't that unlikely a result, as Norway are already through.

If we finish third and advance, then we will almost certainly play Norway (unless the US somehow manage to finish ahead of them). If we finish second, then we will likely play either Germany or North Korea (more likely Germany). If we win the group (unlikely, as we would need to get a better result against Sweden than China does against Argentina), then we will probably play North Korea or Germany (or possibly Japan or the US or NZ if there are upsets in that group).

So while I would prefer that we win or tie and keep momentum, if given a choice between Germany, N Korea, or Norway, I would lean towards Norway.

It's worth noting that Norway probably have good incentive to not lose to Japan. If they lose to Japan, then they could well end up playing Germany or North Korea. If they get a result against Japan, then they will probably face either Canada or Sweden.

[Richard]

^ Ever the numbers guy!

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Tonka

I must admit I am little disapointed in some of the reaction in this thread. I thought the women played very well today. Perhaps one of their strongest matches in sometime and yet many here are still hung up on Pellerud and are making criticisms of the style of play. Lets focus on the positives at least during the duration of this tournament. Following its conclusion Pellerud will step down and we can have the discussion regarding coaching moving forward.

Agreed. it was a good performance and great result. We are where we wanted to be. I dont think that we could have expected more at this point.

[Soju]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

Nonsence, with all due appologises. That is another one of those long standing Voyageurs myths. Along with the one that comes up every time the attendance a at mens is less than desired, Its all the fault ( nothing else)of bad promotion and game marketing. Or, another one of those Voyageurs myths that states that you have to play games in Edmonton and not in the east because in Edmonton you will get only home support and no outsiders.

I have heard ad Naseum Voyageurs tell us how they have seen in their community, town or club womens players who have very refined and high level of technical skills and appreciation for playing possession and using the width of the field. And, that its all and only the fault of Pellerud, that those players are excluded and that we play the way we do. Funny, but when I have walked by a park in Canada whereby girls were practising or playing ( be it rec soccer, University, high school etc), I only saw them mostly working on the strength of their kicks and speed and sprint drills. But much less the one touches and ball control. And when you listen to womens players or commentator's talk and/or interviewed, its those elements of the game ( along with toughness and aggressiveness) that you most often hear discussed.

Lastly, do you remember who coached the team before Pelerud? Do remember how much he was disliked by the Players? Do you remember how poor the results were compared to now?. I do have some recolection and yet, I do recalled seemly seeing teh ball on the pitch more often at that time. Doesn't that tell something about what women want to play?

Why bother arguing with me if you're coming with nothing? It's nonsense because you haven't seen it with your own eyes when walking past pitches? That makes you so confident you're right that you're calling what I wrote a myth? I've never seen a polar bear so they don't exist either based on that logic. Go to more coaching conferences and you'll see Canadians aren't quite so ignorant.

Obviously it will take time for our collective football brain to mature, but there is no reason for posters to come on here and lower the bar by saying it can't happen because it's our "culture" that my friend is nonsense.

Your second point is also nothing. What makes you think the tactics the previous coach was incorporating was the reason the players weren't satisfied? Did anyone tell you that? No that tells us absolutely nothing about how the women want to play, you're just speculating.

I want to add that I'm not calling for us to play a strict possession style of soccer, or drastically change our tactics into a tournament. Pellerud obviously has a system that almost works.

All I'm asking for, praying for, is that we will stop giving the ball away needlessly when we're not under pressure. The women are doing it because they're told to. They're playing the odds by pushing the ball up field with every play. It's ugly. It's a style that lacks confidence. It backfires. The Chinese didn't come back into that game we dragged them back in. If you give a team the ball enough times they'll eventually do something good with it.

[Trillium]

Marta fires Brazil top

Marta belatedly announced her arrival at the Beijing Olympics as two goals in nine minutes saw Brazil leapfrog Korea DPR to reach the top of Group F.

The North Koreans had begun the day at the section's summit, having beaten Nigeria in their opening match, but Brazil's 2-1 win, on the back of Germany's earlier victory, has served to squeeze the Asian hopefuls out of the top two.

Not that they could have any complaints. Brazil were comfortable victors here, with goals from Daniela and Marta on 14 and 23 minutes respectively paving the way for Jorge Barcellos' side to stroll through the remainder of this tepid encounter.

As for Jon Myong-Hui, after keeping a clean sheet in her side's first match at Beijing 2008, she will not want to watch a replay of this one, with the Korea DPR keeper left stranded for both Brazilian goals. First, she lost out in her attempts to clear a short back-pass, allowing Cristiane the simplest of opening goals. Then, nine minutes later, she finished second in a race with Marta to reach Cristiane's incisive reverse pass, leaving the world's best player to curl a left-foot shot high into the unguarded net.

These early blows left the North Koreans with a veritable mountain to climb in this match, and it was one that, in truth, they never looked capable of ascending, with Marta even afforded the luxury spurning a glorious chance to double her tally a few minutes later.

Korea DPR's best spell came midway through the second half, and they had one gilt-edged chance to haul themselves back into contention just before the hour-mark. As it was, however, the normally dependable Ri Kum-Suk headed over with the goal gaping, this after Andreia had flapped at an inviting Kim Kyong-Hwa free-kick. Ri did make amends deep into injury time, but the well-worked consolation goal she smashed home from 15 yards proved too little, too late.

The result leaves Brazil leading Group F from Germany on goals scored, with Korea DPR a further point back in third and Nigeria rooted to the foot of the table without a point - or goal - to show for their efforts.

All the above from FIFA.com, interesting that James DPR analysis seems to have fallen to the South Americans.. who have no regime of training as do the DPR just bringing disparete players with vision and skill and joy of playing jogo bonita together ...

We need to let our Canadian players begin to take some more joy in playing the game, Souju is right in his analysis we should be able to change our game flow .. after Peleruds year with the players he should be able to call the change and have them switch from long ball bang it ..to control then back to long ball, turning the tactics on a dime, that creates total havoc in defending teams, combine it with some interchange of players on the field and you have defences scrambling to keep up.

Surely players like Sinclar et al have the capability to think the game in different planes..to adjust and switch their mental state on a call from the coach ?

[terpfan68]

Isn't it interesting that Canada's easiest opponent in the next round might come from finishing third in their group play. Thanks AlanDouglas for doing the what ifs.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Soju

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Soju

Ok, then let me turn that around. But what makes you so sure that you you are correct that there are all those great technically sound players out there who love to play jogo bonito. Seems to me that any player that I have heard from in terms of honnors and mention in the US college ball are or have been pretty much in the WNT fold at one time or another and I didn't see any difference in playing style. Its always looked the same to me.

[Soju]

Sorry I can't keep watching them give the ball away so cheaply it drives me nuts. Remember when our men did it? Remember how they stopped despite people saying it would never happen? I want the women to stop. The other issue is as Trillium pointed out, we're predictable. Plan A - ASAP balls into space for Sinclair/Lang to scrap for. Plan B-Get Timko on the wing crossing. Has anyone ever seen a plan C from this team? These are both "playing the odds" approaches and summarize well Pellerud's overall attacking mindset, but we will never be champions with this approach because it depends on us being bigger/stronger than our opponents. Forget what happened against Argentina and China because they are physically smaller teams. The real test of our ability to adapt our game is against Sweden who can match us for size and strength.

I guess what we really disagree about is the level of their technical skills and how that may limit our approach. I think you're underestimating them and you think I'm overestimating them. As armchair critics we have no say obviously, but it's either I vent here or I throw things at the TV/coach's bench so I think this is more constructive.

[superbrad]

I think Soju is right. The style of play did work today. It got them a tie. If Pellerud had a possession based style we would have won. The women executed the style coached perfectly. They really bought into it and are playing very well together as a team. That was a far superiour performance than against Argentina as the defenders won most balls played forward and they executed on not allowing the Chinese any space - causing them to make errors. Great. We got a tie.

I think some of us are dissapointed because this was the style of Canada when Lenarduzzi was playing that took many years to get rid of. It's like comparing a style of play - hockey's Minnesota's trap game vs. the Oilers speed and finesse game. Yeah the Oilers have had lousy teams - but they've never changed styles because the trap game is boring and designed to either win 1 - 0 or tie.

The women are very capable of playing with any country and as Soju suggests, should be allowed to use their skills of finesse. To me, Pellerud plays them like they are 12.

[Soju]

quote:

Ok, then let me turn that around. But what makes you so sure that you you are correct that there are all those great technically sound players out there who love to play jogo bonito. Seems to me that any player that I have heard from in terms of honnors and mention in the US college ball are or have been pretty much in the WNT fold at one time or another and I didn't see any difference in playing style. Its always looked the same to me.

This is what I originally wrote: There are women's and girl's teams across Canada playing all sorts of different strategies we are absolutely not resigned to "hoofing it".

I agree with your statement that physical toughness and endurance seem to be really emphasized in the Canadian women's game. In another thread someone posted the CBC documentary of the U17 team "Girls of Summer" and that movie seemed to really highlight this as well. The point I'm trying to make is that I don't think the players are the ones restricting us to these tactics. I think it's certain coaches who are restricting us, and I was simply stating that at grassroots levels there are coaches with different approaches and other possibilities do exist.

[The Ref]

quote:Originally posted by Soju

Pellerud's overall attacking mindset

Attacking mindset? does he have one? When he was still playing in Norway, he was just a defender. I wonder if was just hoofing the ball away himself.

[terpfan68]

I saw Jodi give away two balls on what would have seemed to be easy passes. Each of those give-aways could have produced a China goal late in the game.

When you play the long ball you do not have to retain possession every time. If only one in 4 produces a scoring chance then you put extreme pressure on the defenders. You tire them out and you create opportunities for the midfield. If you are bigger than the defenders then some of your knockdowns will go to your players.

In my opinion if Canada had played a purly possession game we would not have tired out the Chinese defenders because most of our passes would have been at the midfield and back to the defense and if the Chinese forwards were chasing errant passes could have resulted in China scoring more than one goal.

Even with our "style" we maintained 50% of the possession and had many more good opportunities to score.

[Guest speedmonk42]

I guess I could have posted something more positive than a "telegraph" machine.

But... I think Soju and Free Kick are both right.

I don't want to complain about this anymore, but there is also a NEED to complain about.

The coaches are at fault, but it is changeable. It has to be or we have no hope.

One of the problems is that there seems to be a greater difference in the effectiveness of a strong player in the girls game than in the boys game. A strong fit athletic player can have far more impact on a game in a girls game than a boys game. She will just stomp the other players because the strength differences are far more pronounced than in a boys game. In the boys game there is far more parity in this department and it can't be relied on as much. So I think it may be a little harder to change the culture of the game with the girls, but it is changing and it will happen.

[Vic]

quote:

$50 on a Sweden Win

$50 on a US/Japan Draw

$50 on a Germany Win

$50 on a Brazil win

$50 on a Canada/China Draw

$50 on a Norway win

You made $117.50 Kevin

[Vic]

We are bigger, stronger and fitter.

In my opinion if Canada had played a purly possession game we would not have tired out the Chinese defenders

Tired them out? If that game went another 5 or 10 minutes we would have lost. We had nothing in the last 20 minutes and China had 4 very good scoring opportunites.

China played with no courage in the 50/50's, no creativity, and just realized they were in a soccer match in the last ten minutes.

100%.

Thought Canada played way better off the ball than the Chinese, which surprised me. Not a great game for China today. Nerves, heat. Don't know but I expected more of them.

Same.

The Chinese didn't come back into that game we dragged them back in.

Same again.

Sinclair scored from deep in their box (hint, hint) and Lang fed the hundred dollar through ball. Maybe she's what we need in the center of the park.

Lang was tired at the 75 minute mark and mentally checked out from about that point on. No complaints at all on the game she played, quite the opposite, just think the Filigno sub was poorly timed and should have been then and not at 90 minutes.

Robinson struggled but coming into the game at the 75 mark and trying to have rhythym is pretty tough. Yes you have to do better than that but I can empathize.

I have heard countless stories from Voyageurs telling us how they have seen in their community, town or club womens players who have very refined and high level of technical skills and appreciation for playing possession and using the width of the field. And, that its all and only the fault of Pellerud, that those players are excluded and that we play the way we do. Funny, but when I have walked by a park in Canada whereby girls were practising or playing ( be it rec soccer, University, high school etc), I only saw them mostly working on the strength of their kicks and speed and sprint drills. But much less the one touches and ball control.

Well, I've been in that park every night since the women's program has been around, and there are 11yr old girls playing beautiful possession football.

I dont know where you are comming from with this notion that they are capable of playing a possesion oriented game. They are not.

The problem is you have been watching the women's national team for years and presume that's the only way everyone plays. For someone in the GTA, go watch any of the Ontario Cup women/girls U16+ semi's or a girls OYSL game. If you go with an open mind, it will change your thinking. There are other people doing it here and there, but in general, this brand of soccer only exists in this program.

[terpfan68]

Ok, for the sake of argument let's say that the Ontario 16+ are playing the best possession game possible. (Being the centre of the universe how can they not.) What is their fitness level, how is their strength and agressiveness? I have seen many teams that can play keepaway great, but they wilt when up against an agressive, hard tackling, quick team that can attack from anywhere.

I know you need players capable of playing a mix of attacking styles. but if you can't have everything, I'll take the bunch we have against a team that is only content to look good and win the possession statistics. Statistics are for losers, the only statistic that counts is the final score.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by speedmonk42

The coaches are at fault, but it is changeable. It has to be or we have no hope.

..................................

A strong fit athletic player can have far more impact on a game in a girls game than a boys game.

........................

So I think it may be a little harder to change the culture of the game with the girls, but it is changing and it will happen.

I noted that you said "coaches" ( plural ) therefore I can agree with that. It does comes down a lot to how the game is taught and introduced at at the earliest levels.

Your second point is worth repeating and very true. As long as club/professional game for women around the world remains fragmented, neglected, unsupported or non existent, then these discrepancies in fitness and strength will persist. This makes things like overall funding, academies, residency programs even more vital to fill vaccum. You can clearly see that we are really at an advantage in this area. ...................

As for your last point, I would add that for a period of about 20 years, the game had a pretty low profile in this country. It was at the level of most amateur sports which meant back page coverage. But things have really changed in the last couple years. We are getting nice crowds come out and we are getting front page coverage and even have specialized media coverage with shows specifically on the game. And that has included the womens game. I would go so far to state, that far as womens athletes in this country, the womens soccer players are far more recognized than women in just about any other Olympic sport. More coverage means more discussion and more analysis and more exposure to other ways of doing things. The benefits are bound to filter down to the grassroot levels.

-----------------

Finally, we have to look at it in another way. We did not have too many teams in team sports qualify for Beijin. And the last time Canada won an olympic medal in a team sport, other than ice hockey, was in 1936. Where are our basket ball teams for example? Again, as much as the style turns me off, we have a team in womens soccer that will play in the knockout stage ( amongst the eight best in the world)to compete for a medal. I am now watching the the game again on replay and to be honnest, in terms of hit and run soccer, we have seen far worst in the past. It doesn't make me comfortable complaining about style when the team has attained a level ( olympic quarter final) that most national teams in other sports in Canada can only dream about.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by terpfan68

Even with our "style" we maintained 50% of the possession

Yup. I didn't see much in the way of sustained possession from the Chinese either. I still like the way they play though. But they are just not as good as they were 5-10 years ago IMO. I really liked their play then but I dont think that they have the same quality of players today like they had then in Sun Wei or Liu Ailing (sp).

Sustained possession is important in hot humid climates because the team without possession is doing more chasing. So you wear out as later on in the game. The equalizer is fitness of course.

The more I watch it, that was really a terrific world class goal. Cant get much better than pass from Kara Lang

[N-A]

I have only seen the goals in the Canada v China game right now. From the 30 60 secs I did see. The Sinclair goal was good but to let the lead slip that quick is bad it happens to alot of teams that go in front only to let the lead go a few mins later but I am sure that the team will learn from that during the rest of the tournament.

Bring on Sweden and get a result