TFC vs. Independiente (R)

[Gian-Luca]

The Argentinian side wins 1-0 on a mid-second half goal coming off a free kick after one of their players flopped over and dived. To be fair to the Ref, he didn't fall for many of the other Independiente dives, including the two they did in the box. Independiente did not look to me as strong a squad as Pachuca did last week, and neither did TFC as they started off with a true B team and by the end of the game had three un-signed guest players on the field.

Independiente provided an un-welcome reminder of why I hate Argentinian football - I can't ever recall seeing such an unsportsmanlike team in a club football friendly. In addition to the constant diving they put the ball into the back of Edwards net no less than three times (!) well after whistle had blown and everyone else on the field had stopped play. In fact one of the occasions was when an second ball was in play and an Indepediente player kicked it into the TFC net instead of out of the play. On no occasions were their players carded, although the Ref did give them a yellow early on (about 5 minutes in) for a player deliberately kicking the ball away before TFC could take a thrown in at midfield. That was also typical of Independiente in this game, a lot of time wasting, kicking or throwing balls away from TFC players on TFC free kicks. I can understand (even if I don't enjoy) a team doing this in a game that means something but this kind of crap in a friendly it was just ridiculous.

TFC fielded Edwards in net, a back four of Gala, James, Attakora-Gyan and Hemming, a five man midfield with Ibrahim, Rosenlund, Edu, Melo and Smith and Cunningham (who is about 8 years older than anyone else on the starting squad) as a lone striker. Edu was the captain, and from a leadership point of view was actually very disappointing. This was a chance for him to take charge and show him to be "the next big thing" that he himself indicates people are calling him in these new ads they show on the scoreboard before the game & during half time, but on today's performance you'd have to say he's still not ready. How the hell he was awarded "Man of the Match" I do not know, but then I've long held the view that the person deciding on these awards must be certifiably insane.

The three un-signed TFC players who came on mid-second half were Frank Jonke (who bore an uncanny resemblance to Lombardo, even down to the same jersey number and more-recent Lombardo haircut, but looked a bit bulkier but slower) and two players who's names I didn't quite catch. One, a #2, was a central defender (which moves Nana out to right back and Hemming into Melo's spot as Joey was subbed off) and a #8 who played wide right coming on for Smith. It has to be said that all three looked somewhat out of their depth but undestandably so since they don't even get to train at this high of a level regularly and obviously not with their teammates tonight either. What was strange is that Killian Elkinson did not see any time tonight, the only dev. roster player who didn't play, and you have to wonder why they are using a spot on this guy if they are going to play three un-signed local Canucks instead of him in a game like this.

[jpg75]

The CB was Gerard Ladiyou and the midfielder was Murphy Wiredu. All 3 players are from the Italia Shooters.

[Massive Attack]

Nice report G-L.

Elkinson didn't play in the Pachuca game either.

It did feel a lot more like a reserve game than the other friendlies. Even Carver wasn't announced as the coach. Shows how seriously they took this game.

[Ivan]

Nana A-G was player of the game for me. Looked very strong and fast at the back.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by jpg75

The CB was Gerard Ladiyou and the midfielder was Murphy Wiredu. All 3 players are from the Italia Shooters.

Thanks. I have to say, Ladiyou and Wiredu are two pretty cool names, I hope they get signed to the dev. roster just for that reason alone!

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack

Nice report G-L.

Elkinson didn't play in the Pachuca game either.

It did feel a lot more like a reserve game than the other friendlies. Even Carver wasn't announced as the coach. Shows how seriously they took this game.

Carver was up in the press box sitting next to Mo. Most of the TFC regular players were in the press box room next to the room Mo & Carver were in.

Good for Cummins anyway to give the Italia Shooters trio a look. You have to wonder if their asses would have been nailed to the bench if Carver had been the coach (given that he made very few subs by meaningless-friendly standards against Pachuca).

[VPjr]

I was at the game tonight.

I don't share G-L's distaste for the Argentine way of playing football but Independiente's actions were a bit over the top at times tonight.

Independiente treated this game as a tune-up for its young players. Their starting GK tonight was their normal 2nd string GK and he was replaced by a keeper from their youth team in the 2nd half. Their starting XI was very young. It was more of a reserve side with a couple of veterans. Pachuca played a much more veteran lineup last week, especially in the 1st half. Regardless, the Argentine reserves showed a much higher skill level than our players for most of the night. They toyed with the ball. Almost every Independiente player displayed an excellent 1st touch (i wish I could say the same for the TFC youngsters...). that rocket shot in the 2nd half by the eventual goal scorer (the one that went off the crossbar) was a thing of beauty. Unlucky not to score.

TFC had chances and could not bury them. By rights, they should have had at least 1 goal.

the best TFC players tonight were Ibrahim (Independiente started to key on him after about the 20th minute when they realized he required a little extra attention) and Nana (he was excellent...I am very impressed with this young man...he has a bright future). Julius James was ok (he's a great athlete...now he needs to become a better footballer).

I was VERY disappointed with Melo (he was awful) and Rosenlund (consistently bad first touch, several bad decisions). Gala looked a bit out of sorts playing on Defense but he had a few good moments. Hemming was good and bad (I was impressed with him as a defender most of the time, especially considering he is not normally a defender, but he is too hesitant of a player...he waits too long to make up his mind on the offensive end).

Cunningham was normal Cunningham...mostly crap. Jarrod Smith should have scored in the 1st half but was mostly invisible. he was actually playing as a defender a little in the last 10 minutes of the game.

i was happy to see Jonke, Wiredu and Ladiyou get some game action. According to one coach whose opinion I respect greatly, Jonke could find himself graduating from CSL in the near future. He's got the tools to play for TFC as a Dev player already. If he has the desire and shows the right work ethic, it makes sense to give him a shot with TFC reserves. There is almost nothing seperating him from the young Canadians currently on the TFC Dev roster. I would not be surprised if the spot vacated by Lombardo ends up being used by a player like Jonke. Who knows...Jonke and Lombardo might just flip flop teams.

by the way, TFC played more of a 4-3-3 going forward IMO.

[youllneverwalkalone]

Doesn't sound like there was much of a point to having these friendlies at all? They sounded like a great idea at the time, exposing us to some of our fellow continental clubs, but now what?

I know they have school and whatnot, but I'd love to think Melo, Gala, & Nana could go down to Argentina on loan for a few months to train with a youth team/reserves. Talk about a great experience for an 18 year old.

Not to mention they could learn some Spanish. One of the downsides of the NASL was that we have a whole generation of players with no knowledge of football culture outside NA. Mitchell being a prime example that leaps to mind. I would bet once this current generation of Europe based players give up the boots, you'll see a lot more people remain in the game overseas in coaching and scouting. It would be nice to find away to give our domestic players a chance to further their exposure to international football, foreign leagues, and languages.

It's great to have a domestic club, but it doesn't seem like these kids are making that much progress on the developmental squad. Not to mention, the average good player in Argentina is probably making only $200k a year. With all these international spots, TFC could take a few prospects on loan and put them on the developmental roster. Leandro Depetris is highly touted, as one Rojo example that comes to mind.

There must be something about loans in MLS that I don't know?

[VPjr]

^ The whole deal with MLS players going out on loan is a huge mystery to me but I agree these players need to be loaned out for more game action.

The only one that I would not loan out is Nana because I honestly believe he is more fundamentally sound than at least 2 of the defenders ahead of him on the senior team depth chart. It won't be long before he starts getting 1st team playing time in my opinion. Next year, he'll be pushing Marshall and Velez for their jobs.

The rest of them (Melo, Elkinton, Gala, Monsalve and Rosenlund) should go out and play anywhere that the team can find a home for them. I don't care if they play in the CSL at this point because at least they would be playing 1-2 games per week against older players in a physical league. The reserve schedule in MLS is far too inconsistent and essentially meaningless for it to be a good place for players to grow.

[Ivan]

Its too bad these players cannot suit up for the occasional game with the Academy team.

[youllneverwalkalone]

Another random question: Winspear is supposed to be a fitness guru. Right? One thing the possession based cultures sometimes lack, is fitness. After all, they're not closing down and making forward runs all day long. I believe this is why DeGuzman was able to last that first season in Spain and become the player he is today.

So if I'm the coach at Independiente, I might send Depetris up on six month loan to work on his fitness. It could be a good value proposition for TFC.

But here's the problem: TFC don't seem to be winning games on their fitness. Robert looks horribly out of shape, as one example. Velez was sucking wind all night long against the Caps in Vancouver, on a night that wasn't overly warm. Maybe, these are the exceptions that proves the rule. I dunno. Overall, the club looks a bit slow and the work rate -though good in some cases- is pretty inconsistent. Am I wrong?

[Massive Attack]

It appears that all the gains made by having a dedicated fitness coach are being lost by the fact that Carver only has a defacto 13-14 player squad. He often does not use all his subs. And he rarely works other squad players into the games. After a stretch of a ton of games the players still get tired.

[crashvegas]

I think with players like Robert (and the other former Euro-league players) looking out of shape, it may be adjusting to the travel that is involved playing in a US-Canada league. I'm not a geography scholar but I do believe most Euro league teams travel no more than 2-3 hours driving distance on average for an away game. It may be the rigours of air travel that could be sapping them somewhat (maybe even some mental fatigue) if they're not used to it.

[red card]

no, they're just getting old. And for some like Robert, they seem to be a bit lazy at times.

[Eric]

I don't think TFC players are slow or out of shape, I don't even think Robert is that old or lazy either. I just think the main problem with TFC and MLS in general is "technique" or "first touch". When you watch a european or south american team counter-attacking you see the ball moving from one player to an other with precision and speed, with smart forward touches into feet (in south america) or into space (in europe) and most of it is RIGHT ON.

But in TFC and MLS teams the ball moves one yard forward and two back, simply because the players don't have the individual technique level require to pass the ball precise and with speed. This is just my humble opinion from watching football 24-7 live and on tv and by the way I'm looking for a new girlfriend that could understand that important part of my life. []

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by Eric

I don't think TFC players are slow or out of shape, I don't even think Robert is that old or lazy either. I just think the main problem with TFC and MLS in general is "technique" or "first touch". When you watch a european or south american team counter-attacking you see the ball moving from one player to an other with precision and speed, with smart forward touches into feet (in south america) or into space (in europe) and most of it is RIGHT ON.

But in TFC and MLS teams the ball moves one yard forward and two back, simply because the players don't have the individual technique level require to pass the ball precise and with speed. This is just my humble opinion from watching football 24-7 live and on tv

You could not be more correct.

I watched the TFC v Independiente match on Tuesday with a CSL head coach. It is very different to watch a match with a person who is capable of very detailed analysis of a soccer match.

Everything you are saying in your post is identical to what he and I spoke about at length on Tuesday. Ultimately, a large percentage of MLS players lack the qualities found in players in the top leagues in most other parts of the world. In North American, we underemphasize the need to accurately make a pass, to properly control a pass, to quickly hit an accurate cross before the defense has time to react and close down, etc... Many MLS players (especially 2nd string players) lack sufficient basic technical skills, resulting in games like Tuesday's, lacking in any entertainment value.

[youllneverwalkalone]

But this isn't a secret. It's well know Canadians and Americans (And Brits, and Irish, and Scandinavians) lack technical skills. Which is why, if I were in any position of influence with TFC, I would try to get my players exposure to more techncial football. There are a few ways I can think of:

-More matches against "Latin" clubs (done)

-Hiring coaches to teach technique (not done)

-Loan partnerships with clubs who produce good technical players

The latter seems by far the most efficient. One may wonder, what's in it for San Lorenzo or Colo Colo to take/send players on loan to TFC? Other than money, the only thing I can come up with is the ability to train in good facilities with with a "top" fitness coach (ie. Winspear). But at the end of the day, TFC do not appear that fit to me (in addition to gaps in techincal ability). That was my concern with my so-called plan of future loan partnerships. And that I have absolutely no idea as to the MLS loan policy.

[youllneverwalkalone]

But this isn't a secret. It's well know Canadians and Americans (And Brits, and Irish, and Scandinavians) lack technical skills. Which is why, if I were in any position of influence with TFC, I would try to get my players exposure to more techncial football. There are a few ways I can think of:

-More matches against "Latin" clubs (done)

-Hiring coaches to teach technique (not done)

-Loan partnerships with clubs who produce good technical players

The latter seems by far the most efficient. One may wonder, what's in it for San Lorenzo or Colo Colo to take/send players on loan to TFC? Other than money, the only thing I can come up with is the ability to train in good facilities with with a "top" fitness coach (ie. Winspear). But at the end of the day, TFC do not appear that fit to me (in addition to gaps in techincal ability). That was my concern with my so-called plan of future loan partnerships. And that I have absolutely no idea as to the MLS loan policy.

[Eric]

It may not be a secret to you or people who look and inform them self's about soccer around the world but believe it or not the majority of "soccer people " in Canada have no clue as of the training methods and systems of play from other parts of the world, so when the WC shows up every 4 years, they grab their hair and fall in disbelieve of how technical and fast players from third world countries are.

Watching international soccer with an open mind teaches you that some of the myths that exist around the world of professional football are just that, pure myths. IMO brazilian and argentinian players are among the top 5 soccer nations when it comes down to fitness and players speed. Specially the brazilians they can beat any body chasing a 50-50 ball down the line. But the general perception is that players from worm countries are suppose to be slow, the reality is that because of their high level of individual technique, they don't really need to be chasing the ball for 90 mins. like in those countries you mention youllneverwalkalone and you are absolutely right about that and it also shows that you are an open minded person when it comes to soccer.

IMO Winspear is an average trainer, because if he was a top trainer he wouldn't be in Canada, of course he might be doing it for the money or for the respect he was not getting in England. I believe he's done a good job so far but of course I'm comparing this season to last season when the players had no guidance whatsoever on fitness.

I think you really hit the nail when you mention "-Hiring coaches to teach technique (not done)" the reason for that is not because there are not enough non british coaches here, good enough and with enough experience to do that job with the TFC Academy teams (ie. Patric Tobo) and is not because they don't have the money to hire them, the real reason is that if they are none british or have been playing in the british isles for most of their lives, they don't want to have anything to do with them, because they know that after a year they'll be ALL out of work (including MO) for being incapable to teach good technique.

They know that and they're holding to their jobs as long as they can but people are not stupid and soccer fans are educating them self more and more, so sooner than latter the british system and teaching methods in Canada have to give way to more advance and modern ways of teaching and improving young players, that's the only way IMO canadian players will eventually be internationally competitive in big numbers, right now we only have a few.

[youllneverwalkalone]

I don't doubt that Brasil has some very good fitness coaches. Simoes was adamant about bringing one up as part of his Canada coaching team. Anyone who's ever tried to play football at any level knows that it takes a certain type of fitness to succeed. (I'm still not sure what it is as I'm defintely not succeeding personally!)

But Northern Hemisphere clubs in general, and English clubs specifically, have top facilities. More and more, TFC appears to building on this English model. And though I don't know for sure, I would expect that they are above average for MLS. Hopefully you invest the $$$ in facilities in order to get better conditioned althletes who can either play the high tempo pace or, at least, dictate tempo.

This argument could get way off topic, but my understanding of Brasilian footballers is that they are taught to man mark a little more than in the English game. With lower tempo matches, this obviously completely negates the need to close down your opponent. But with a higher tempo game in England, you need more zonal marking and, as a result, more closing down. And this requires a certain amount of fitness.

A good example of how this played out is Rafa's initial Spanish invasion at Liverpool. Xavi Alonso immediately did well because he's a DM who man marks well and who doesn't need to close down all over the pitch. Luis Garcia was buggered from the beginning because he had never closed anyone down in his life, and the opposing wingers (and even some more cultured centre backs) were having a laugh with him.

So after this blah, blah, blah, I do have a point: Why is TFC playing such a low tempo, lazy game if they are caoched by a firery Geordie? Maybe I'm being unfair, but the tempo has decreased to the point that the Caps were dictating the pace on the road at BMO. This is definitely a bad sign for Toronto. I agree that the fitness is better this year, but still not great.

Which brings me back to the beginning: sure Robert has decent technical skills, but he'll never be able to play at an EPL tempo again. He's done. Maybe Hernan Fredes has never played for a Geordie, but he's young enough to learn.

[Eric]

One of the reasons why it seams like TFC has slow down the tempo, referring to the game against the White Caps, could be the lack of movement off the ball.

They don't create space to receive the ball but instead react most times to force passes, creating a sensation of lateness and lack of speed. It looks to me they play base on their own creativity to build up attacking situations and because these are not very creative players the task becomes up hill.

I don't think TFC has a define attacking system, I don't see their practices but I watch their games and either they don't practice enough attacking situations or they are just mediocre players IMHO.

[canada989490]

The best way for players to improve their technical skills is through street soccer,however you should be playing it more so when your young, you learn to develop skills much better. If marvell wynne had decent technical skills to go along with his amazing speed he would be one of the best players.

[youllneverwalkalone]

quote:Originally posted by canada989490

The best way for players to improve their technical skills is through street soccer,however you should be playing it more so when your young, you learn to develop skills much better. If marvell wynne had decent technical skills to go along with his amazing speed he would be one of the best players.

I don't think it's the "best" way. Definitely not realistic for Canada and, as you say, not likely for 16-18 year olds.

I don't think it's fair to bash the Britian too much either. Obviously, Man United. West Ham, Leeds, and Tottenham have done some good things at their academies over the years. England might be suffering a bit at the moment, but you need to consider the Irish, Scottish, and Welsh kids who come through as well. Not to mention, some Scandinavians and French too.

If you take the best South American footballer, say Matias Fernandez from a couple years ago, and put him against Micah Richards, Richards will eat him alive. He's too big, too strong, too fast and, for an Englishman, pretty good on the ball. He might very well be indicative of a new generation who have grown up in a much more competitive English academy system, with much more exposure to foreign coaching.

Mo definitely seems to be living in the dark ages. Carver, I'm not so sure. I still like him. I don't know how realistic it is to ask to bring in CSL/Ontario club coaches into TFC's ranks. For me it would be easier to loan the kids out into systems that are already established. Especially in areas (in the Americas) where such partnerships may not be so common. To crawl before walking, so to speak.

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by Eric

It may not be a secret to you or people who look and inform them self's about soccer around the world but believe it or not the majority of "soccer people " in Canada have no clue as of the training methods and systems of play from other parts of the world, so when the WC shows up every 4 years, they grab their hair and fall in disbelieve of how technical and fast players from third world countries are.

Watching international soccer with an open mind teaches you that some of the myths that exist around the world of professional football are just that, pure myths. IMO brazilian and argentinian players are among the top 5 soccer nations when it comes down to fitness and players speed. Specially the brazilians they can beat any body chasing a 50-50 ball down the line. But the general perception is that players from worm countries are suppose to be slow, the reality is that because of their high level of individual technique, they don't really need to be chasing the ball for 90 mins. like in those countries you mention youllneverwalkalone and you are absolutely right about that and it also shows that you are an open minded person when it comes to soccer.

IMO Winspear is an average trainer, because if he was a top trainer he wouldn't be in Canada, of course he might be doing it for the money or for the respect he was not getting in England. I believe he's done a good job so far but of course I'm comparing this season to last season when the players had no guidance whatsoever on fitness.

I think you really hit the nail when you mention "-Hiring coaches to teach technique (not done)" the reason for that is not because there are not enough non british coaches here, good enough and with enough experience to do that job with the TFC Academy teams (ie. Patric Tobo) and is not because they don't have the money to hire them, the real reason is that if they are none british or have been playing in the british isles for most of their lives, they don't want to have anything to do with them, because they know that after a year they'll be ALL out of work (including MO) for being incapable to teach good technique.

They know that and they're holding to their jobs as long as they can but people are not stupid and soccer fans are educating them self more and more, so sooner than latter the british system and teaching methods in Canada have to give way to more advance and modern ways of teaching and improving young players, that's the only way IMO canadian players will eventually be internationally competitive in big numbers, right now we only have a few.

I don't need to contribute anything else to this thread....you literally read my mind and published them as your own....is that some form of plagerism...

seriously...again, I could not agree more with you, especially on the issue of coaching.

There are a quite a few excellent coaches here in Ontario whose resumes that would put to shame the CVs of our top CSA and OSA coaches but these guys can't even get an interview for a top job. Why it happens? who really knows. is it because some of these people are not English or did not come from the English system? I can't say. But Canada needs all of its best coaches working toward a common goal rather than being underutilized and underappreciated.

[youllneverwalkalone]

It would be interesting to start a MOACA type thread for coaches. Rather than focusing on nationality, we could just make it for high level coaches in Canada -perhaps ranked by license or something. Could you two mind melded CSL followers make some suggestions of candidates? Ideally, I think, the list would link to an updated wiki page, which would also require some of your inside knowledge.