Follow the Money....

[Trillium]

The Forbes estimates of MLS value / profits for 2013.

Team Value ($M) Revenue ($M) Operating Income ($M) %of OI of Revenue

Seattle Sounders 175 48.0 18.2 37.9

LA Galaxy 170 44.0 7.8 17.7

Portland Timbers 141 39.1 9.4 24.04

Houston Dynamo 125 32.6 8.2 25.15

Toronto FC 121 30.9 4.5 14.5

New York Red Bulls 114 28.1 -6.3 -22.4

Sporting Kansas City 108 27.7 5.1 18.4

Chicago Fire 102 24.5 -3.2 13.06

FC Dallas 97 24.2 0.6 02.4

Montreal Impact 96 26.2 3.4 12.9

Philadelphia Union 90 21.4 1.1 5.14

New England Revolution 89 17.1 2.6 15.2

Vancouver Whitecaps 86 23.0 0.0 0

Real Salt Lake 85 23.0 -0.1 -.43

Colorado Rapids 76 18.1 -2.9 -16.02

San Jose Earthquakes 75 15.0 -4.5 -30.0

Columbus Crew 73 18.6 -1.6 -8.6

DC United 71 17.7 -2.8 -15.8

Chivas USA 64 15.0 -5.5 -36.0

10 teams making a profit, 8 losing money 1, break even

Canadian Teams

Toronto FC 121 30.9 4.5 14.5

Montreal Impact 96 26.2 3.4 12.9

Vancouver Whitecaps 86 23.0 0.0 0

TFC comes out best on the accounting side if the numbers are accurate, revenue not much better then Impact with 15% more revenue, which is most likely in swag, jerseys etc and local radio or TV contracts. Vancouver clearly suffers from its stadium situation not controlling revenues like the others and spending almost as much ( 75% TFC revenue but no profit a mere increase of 3.2 million to bring revenue up to Impact would make Vancouver profitable. What is interesting is to wonder how much of TFC and or Impact stadia revenue is reflected in the numbers.

The huge challenge for Vancouver is to get out of its stadium and into one it owns to become profitable, they do not have the revenue base to compete as they are currently structured.

Clearly someone at the New England Revs is a financial genius, profitable on small revenue, they must be living within their means.

Darn.. thought my spacing would work...

[Keegan]

No surprise in confirming what everyone knew, that Toronto is the biggest club in Canadian footy.

[madmonte]

What's interesting about this is that if they offer a player a 6 million contract, and it doesn't deliver in results...then TFC are going to guarantee themselves a loss next year. Say that player is Jermaine Defoe for example. He's a good player, but he's not about to get people to buy tickets and jerseys in droves, ala Henry in New York, and Beckham in LA.

This could be a very interesting year for TFC...potentially groundbreaking, but also potentially disastrous.

[TFC07]

What's interesting about this is that if they offer a player a 6 million contract, and it doesn't deliver in results...then TFC are going to guarantee themselves a loss next year. Say that player is Jermaine Defoe for example. He's a good player, but he's not about to get people to buy tickets and jerseys in droves, ala Henry in New York, and Beckham in LA.

This could be a very interesting year for TFC...potentially groundbreaking, but also potentially disastrous.

TFC is going to take a loss next few years due to construction (rebuilding BMO field). However, despite lack of results and amount money they spent on previous DP's, they're still making money and their value is very good especially compare to other Canadian teams. Once they produce a winning team, then their value is going to skyrocket.

Whitecaps need their own stadium while Montreal better not hope they have a losing.

Overall, Canadian teams are doing well. Hopefully we can get one more Canadian team into MLS since Canadian teams are proving to be good contributors to the league.

[madmonte]

TFC is going to take a loss next few years due to construction (rebuilding BMO field). However, despite lack of results and amount money they spent on previous DP's, they're still making money and their value is very good especially compare to other Canadian teams. Once they produce a winning team, then their value is going to skyrocket.

Whitecaps need their own stadium while Montreal better not hope they have a losing.

Overall, Canadian teams are doing well. Hopefully we can get one more Canadian team into MLS since Canadian teams are proving to be good contributors to the league.

They are, but I'm not sure there is another feasible market...

ie: one that will be a better market than an American counterpart. I'd take Orlando over Calgary as an MLS expansion team if I was commish. Things in Florida have changed a lot since the year 2000, particularly the latino population. I think the failures of soccer in Florida of the past will be soon forgotten. 9000 people for games in the USL...Edmonton isn't even close to that. So where? Hamilton?

[shermanator]

Good to see 50%+ making a profit, especially consdering a few years ago it was reported that most teams lost money.

I'd be interested in seeing what the NASL balance sheets look like (especially for FC Edmonton). I imagine it's red ink everywhere except for in New York and San Antonio.

[VWFC]

No surprise in confirming what everyone knew, that Toronto is the biggest club in Canadian footy.

And easily the worst. Do TFC fans feel like they're getting fleeced?

[TFC07]

They are, but I'm not sure there is another feasible market...

ie: one that will be a better market than an American counterpart. I'd take Orlando over Calgary as an MLS expansion team if I was commish. Things in Florida have changed a lot since the year 2000, particularly the latino population. I think the failures of soccer in Florida of the past will be soon forgotten. 9000 people for games in the USL...Edmonton isn't even close to that. So where? Hamilton?

I would say Calgary if their population and wealth keeps on growing. Edmonton and Ottawa are more realistic if their NASL teams are doing well off-field.

I think Toronto market can handle two teams, but I am sure MLSE will find a way to block another team coming to Southern Ontario though. I am not sure Hamilton is a good soccer market for MLS. Hamilton would be better off with NASL club.

[ted]

I'd be interested in seeing what the NASL balance sheets look like (especially for FC Edmonton). I imagine it's red ink everywhere except for in New York and San Antonio.

Given that this version of NASL has only been operating for 3 seasons (four if you include the bastardized NASL/USL hybrid) why would you expect anything like profitability for most of the teams?

It would be interesting to see and I would hope that of those teams that are not in black this season, they would be on track to do so next season or the season thereafter. IMO five years is the "magic number" to reach a point of not bleeding money with a club. Profitability, well that can only be achieved by teams that own or have exclusive leasing of stadiums again, IMO.

[Guest Ed]

I would say Calgary if their population and wealth keeps on growing. Edmonton and Ottawa are more realistic if their NASL teams are doing well off-field.

I think Toronto market can handle two teams, but I am sure MLSE will find a way to block another team coming to Southern Ontario though. I am not sure Hamilton is a good soccer market for MLS. Hamilton would be better off with NASL club.

I've been in Calgary for many years and I don't see MLS being viable here. Hockey and football rule the roost. Maybe 10 years from now it will be different.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Most post-WWII immigrants wound up in the GTA, lower mainland BC or Montreal. The Prairies and Ottawa are more CFL country in demographic terms. I suspect a fourth Canadian franchise will probably have to wait for another decade or two of population growth in Alberta. Think Ottawa and Hamilton are close enough to the Impact and TFC that it wouldn't spread the footprint enough in broadcasting terms.

[ag futbol]

I've been in Calgary for many years and I don't see MLS being viable here. Hockey and football rule the roost. Maybe 10 years from now it will be different.

+1

This is exactly what people fail to comprehend at times. Demographics and the interest level in the sport vary wildly between different areas of the country.

[Trillium]

Calgary demographics...

As of 2006, nearly one in four people in Calgary belonged to a visible minority group (22.2%). Of the largest Canadian cities, Calgary ranked third in proportion of visible minorities, behind Toronto and Vancouver.

Among the immigrants arriving in Calgary between 2001 and 2006, 78% belonged to a visible minority group.

The largest group was Chinese (6.2%) while South Asians (mainly from India or Pakistan) made up the second largest group (5.4%).

There were more than 200 different ethnic origins in Calgary, the most frequently reported were English, Scottish, Canadian, German and Irish.^[75]

Christians make up 67% of the population, while 25% have no religious affiliation. Other religions in the city are Muslims (2.7%),Buddhists (1.8%), and Sikhs (1.4%).^[76]

^{Beyond Stampede and its all-inclusive nature its hard to pin down a demographic slant in the numbers that would support a NASL or MLS franchise based on ethnic origins, but the citys average age of 36 years offers a hint that there must be lots singles with good incomes capable of attending pro games for the event nature ( simalar to Toronto's supporters in the early years ).}

^{Now if you can translate visibility in terms of World Cup and stadia atmosphere you could have viable product in three years, you have to get in for the NASL clausura season in 2014, then be on your way to building a SSS somewhere on the LRT line within 100 metres of a station, I do not know the city well enough to say such a parcel of 6 to 10 acres exists for a 10k seater or not.}

[Obinna]

Calgary demographics...

As of 2006, nearly one in four people in Calgary belonged to a visible minority group (22.2%). Of the largest Canadian cities, Calgary ranked third in proportion of visible minorities, behind Toronto and Vancouver.

Among the immigrants arriving in Calgary between 2001 and 2006, 78% belonged to a visible minority group.

The largest group was Chinese (6.2%) while South Asians (mainly from India or Pakistan) made up the second largest group (5.4%).

There were more than 200 different ethnic origins in Calgary, the most frequently reported were English, Scottish, Canadian, German and Irish.^[75]

Christians make up 67% of the population, while 25% have no religious affiliation. Other religions in the city are Muslims (2.7%),Buddhists (1.8%), and Sikhs (1.4%).^[76]

^{Beyond Stampede and its all-inclusive nature its hard to pin down a demographic slant in the numbers that would support a NASL or MLS franchise based on ethnic origins, but the citys average age of 36 years offers a hint that there must be lots singles with good incomes capable of attending pro games for the event nature ( simalar to Toronto's supporters in the early years ).}

^{Now if you can translate visibility in terms of World Cup and stadia atmosphere you could have viable product in three years, you have to get in for the NASL clausura season in 2014, then be on your way to building a SSS somewhere on the LRT line within 100 metres of a station, I do not know the city well enough to say such a parcel of 6 to 10 acres exists for a 10k seater or not.}

I haven't been in Calgary long, but from what I have seen I am skeptical that MLS would be successful. Yes it is ethnically diverse here but the Stamps have a pretty strong presence, regardless of where people originate from.

Regarding a stadium site, there is a parcel of land just west of downtown (west village?) and just a few 100 meters from the new Sunalta LRT station. However, I have also heard rumors that this is where the new hockey stadium will go.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=163712&page=60

[Guest Ed]

Calgary demographics...

As of 2006, nearly one in four people in Calgary belonged to a visible minority group (22.2%). Of the largest Canadian cities, Calgary ranked third in proportion of visible minorities, behind Toronto and Vancouver.

Among the immigrants arriving in Calgary between 2001 and 2006, 78% belonged to a visible minority group.

The largest group was Chinese (6.2%) while South Asians (mainly from India or Pakistan) made up the second largest group (5.4%).

There were more than 200 different ethnic origins in Calgary, the most frequently reported were English, Scottish, Canadian, German and Irish.^[75]

Christians make up 67% of the population, while 25% have no religious affiliation. Other religions in the city are Muslims (2.7%),Buddhists (1.8%), and Sikhs (1.4%).^[76]

^{Beyond Stampede and its all-inclusive nature its hard to pin down a demographic slant in the numbers that would support a NASL or MLS franchise based on ethnic origins, but the citys average age of 36 years offers a hint that there must be lots singles with good incomes capable of attending pro games for the event nature ( simalar to Toronto's supporters in the early years ).}

^{Now if you can translate visibility in terms of World Cup and stadia atmosphere you could have viable product in three years, you have to get in for the NASL clausura season in 2014, then be on your way to building a SSS somewhere on the LRT line within 100 metres of a station, I do not know the city well enough to say such a parcel of 6 to 10 acres exists for a 10k seater or not.}

Frankly, a wikipedia extract doesn't really help the dialogue here. People have been trying (me among them) to grow the pro game here in Calgary since the first venture with the Storm in the A-League. It is a very tough row to hoe.