NASL sanctioning not secure

[jloome]

Sorry, one potential investor who would be willing to consider something other than NASL is not enought to even come close to refuting Richard's point.

He made several points, including that "no one" had showed any interest in investing. Clearly, that's not the case. So that point was clearly refuted.

As for his points, I've yet to see one that added up to an "argument" or anything remotely resembling "logic" -- just cynicism that no one will do it and a suggestion the NASL has brand value.

To the contrary, the NASL is bleeding franchises and spending large amounts of money without result. It has no "cachet" with the modern fan because of its name alone, and the investors behind it have no track record of success. Additionally, they're ignoring large swaths of what worked in Toronto, Seattle and Philly.

They're massively overspending on admin, underspending on players and promotion. It's the same old story.

Now, these are all points. They're not necessarily ones you agree with, but I can at least support them by having talked to some of those involved in the league, and having good sources still in the league.

Again, what's the actual counterargument? A cynical "it won't work" isn't a counterargument. It's defeatist, narrow-minded and pointless. But it's not a counterargument.

[Richard]

Good - but apparently anonymous - sources? Classic schoolyard "I know something you don't know!" says he, then sticks his tongue out. Who are your sources and do they have the facts to back up what they are asserting or is this yet more soft opinion stuff?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Meanwhile getting away from jloome's pet fantasy, which amounts to diddlysquat in the absence of a large group of interested investors with the wealth level required to make it a reality, back on terra firma on the actual subject matter of this thread the NASL has resubmitted its sanctioning bid and a USSF "pro league task force" will consider it next week to determine whether it gets on the agenda at the USSF's AGM:

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/article/NASL-seeks-to-regain-status-993653.php#ixzz1Cy1G541T

North American Soccer League head Aaron Davidson said this week that the league has resubmitted its bid to be sanctioned as second division under Major League Soccer.

...

The USSF's pro league task force will review the NASL's application before it may be considered at the federation's annual general meetings, which begin a week from today in Las Vegas. USSF spokesman Neil Buethe said this week that the group wouldn't comment on the NASL's submission or offer a timetable for a possible decision on second-division sanctioning.

So hopefully not too long now until we should be getting a much clearer picture of the road ahead at D2 level at least in the short to medium term if Aaron Davidson's upbeat comments in interviews bear any correlation with reality.

[Alex D]

Good - but apparently anonymous - sources? Classic schoolyard "I know something you don't know!" says he, then sticks his tongue out. Who are your sources and do they have the facts to back up what they are asserting or is this yet more soft opinion stuff?

So... you're not going to respond to his actual argument?

[ted]

So... you're not going to respond to his actual argument?

There is really nothing that requires a response. We can disagree and hold different opinions but there have been no new facts entered into evidence.

[jloome]

Good - but apparently anonymous - sources? Classic schoolyard "I know something you don't know!" says he, then sticks his tongue out. Who are your sources and do they have the facts to back up what they are asserting or is this yet more soft opinion stuff?

I'm the op-ed editor of the Sun. No, I'm not going to reveal sources to you on a public board. For one, several of them work for the club and would be fired.

For another, yes, there are several veteran people both associated with this venture and formerly who know why it's eventually going to collapse. I've discussed team budgets with one of the owners and previously with the current president of USL pro.

Simply put, to succeed in North America, almost nothing can be seen to be "second rate." It either has to be "amateur" or "top flight." Every other secondary-but-pro league started in the U.S. for every othersport -- basketball, football and baseball -- has failed for that exact reason.

Again, Richard, I ask you for arguments and you can just throw back "oh I don't trust your source."

WHAT'S YOUR POSITION? How did you achieve it? What facts, or even assertions, beyond the name-value of the NASL, are you using?

There's no point trying to have a debate with someone who's just being obstinate.

[jloome]

There is really nothing that requires a response. We can disagree and hold different opinions but there have been no new facts entered into evidence.

There hasn't been a debate yet, Ted. Geez, this is unlike you -- you're one of the people on this board who usually takes the sensible middle.

Here's the point: I'm making a specific argument, that the management of this league has already evidenced itself incompetent. It has three failed franchises already, it has two of eight that are half way across the continent. It has minor-league ballparks, and is spending almost as much on the average team's administration as on players.

Their stadiums are pointyball parks, and player budgets are so low -- I was told by Fath that some teams were in the $350,000 ballpark -- that when you consider that several of the teams have lost millions, it's evident that fairly large amounts of money are disappearing into administration and glad-handing.

Additionally, the league is verging on not being sanctioned at all.

Now, those are points. Again, no one's even argued them. You've both simply said "we don't agree."

How do you expect anyone to respect a position you haven't even supported yet?

How can anyone be optimistic about a venture that looks, so far, exactly like every other failed, second-tier league?

The only way soccer works professionally in North America -- land of big hype and big pop culture -- is if it at least appears first-rate. Some NASL teams have wasted so much money already (Edmonton's exhibition season cost it over $2 million) they could've ACTUALLY put a league in place.

But as I've said, I've talked to some of the actual owners and managers involved in this level, and it's obvious most of them are in the game because they see opportunity, not because they understand the market. And instead of breaking in people who understand the market, they've been surrounded by the usual corporate-level schmoozers who've helped bankrupt every other league up until now.

And if nothing else is indicative to you that this will fail, here's another suggestion: Go on FC Edmonton's site and buy a ticket directly. What's that, Timmy? You say Lassie hasn't figured out the internet yet and you can't even buy tickets on their site without calling their office?

Get ****ing real, boys.

That's my final word on this. I don't mind people disagreeing with me if I can see some logic at least to what they're saying. But simply repeatedly disparaging an idea without presenting any kind of argument just makes you both look foolish and frankly is a waste of my time.

Bye.

[ted]

Here's the point: I'm making a specific argument, that the management of this league has already evidenced itself incompetent.

Whoah, back up a second here. We are having two completely different arguments here apparently. I find all your points re: NASL fascinating and well worth further discussion but that is not what I have been arguing about.

I have been responding to the notion that an all-Canadian league that has not even been formally proposed has a better marketing and brand potential than an existing NA-wide operation.

The NASL may have significant challenges to overcome before the USSF makes it's final decision re: 2011 sanctioning but there is no other realistic option for D2 soccer this summer in North America. The one and only potential Canadian investor to be identified did not in fact commit to a hypothetical league but identified the possibility as an option if the NASL did not work out.

Sorry if the wires got crossed and by all means we need more information even if it is from unnamed sources. We have got a lot of good information from such sources and are generally capable of accepting such as rumour and hearsay until confirmed on-the-record.

[Richard]

Yup, a domestic Canadian startup league is nothing more than a possible fallback option for this potential Canadian investor for whom an operating NASL remains first choice.

I am not averse to a domestic league, but I do find the odds of us seeing one anytime soon, if ever, to be very poor in the face of our history of failed league attempts, the reality of three MLS clubs in Canada in the biggest domestic markets and the dirth of willing investors clammering for one. I am also not convinced the CSA really has what it takes to change that situation but I am open to being surprised by them.

[jloome]

Yup, a domestic Canadian startup league is nothing more than a possible fallback option for this potential Canadian investor for whom an operating NASL remains first choice.

I am not averse to a domestic league, but I do find the odds of us seeing one anytime soon, if ever, to be very poor in the face of our history of failed league attempts, the reality of three MLS clubs in Canada in the biggest domestic markets and the dirth of willing investors clammering for one. I am also not convinced the CSA really has what it takes to change that situation but I am open to being surprised by them.

OK, maybe we're arguing at cross-purposes. I disagree on the realism front; not that I think it's realistically going to happen, but that I think it's realistic for someone to do it. Two different things.

On the other front, Ted, my apologies if wires were crossed.....but I still think a NA second division is doomed, on the face of what people here find acceptable as a major-ticket expense. Pro Lacrosse, as noted, draws 9,000 in Edmonton -- becuase it's the only pro lacrosse league.

If it were 2nd division pro lacrosse? You couldn't fill a 7Eleven with the people who'd bother attending.

[foreverthursday]

Pro Lacrosse, as noted, draws 9,000 in Edmonton -- becuase it's the only pro lacrosse league.

If it were 2nd division pro lacrosse? You couldn't fill a 7Eleven with the people who'd bother attending.

Ooops! you were close, but completely wrong! the NLL is the second division and the MLL is first. They are different because one is outdoor, and one is box, and both share players because the outdoor league is summertime.

Sorry jloome, but you failed that homework assignment completely.

Edit: I just re-read it it, and I meant to say box-ish. It evolved out of box lacrosse, but the NLL isn't true "box lacrosse."

[jloome]

Technically true, relatively pointless.

If they can't tell a substantive difference because they use THE SAME PLAYERS, as you've noted, then it's an apples and oranges comparison. That's not two different levels of production value, two different levels of sport. It's the same, dressed up differently to accommodate winter.

Football isn't like that. You can't take a group of indoor players and move them outdoors and have people show up en masse just because you say one is of a higher level than the other. That's been tried several times, and has failed every time.

The average football fan in north america already supports an overseas team. They have minimum expectations that have to be met as consumers. If the almost absolute lack of apparent interest locally wasn't an indication this is true -- after about two years of "promoting -- I'm not sure what would be.

As for whether we need the U.S. for that, I'd argue that another league other than MLS will NEVER make money in the U.S., unless it massively closes the gap between what we've seen so far and what the top league offers.

[Richard]

So jloome, you don't think it's realistically going to happen - neither do I - but I would be happy if we had an NASL equivalent or better of our own.

You think it is realistic for someone to do it - I have never denied that - but I question whether that 'someone' exists.

It seems therefore that we're not as far apart in our views as our recent exchanges on the subject might suggest ;-)

[dmont]

I'm the op-ed editor of the Sun. No, I'm not going to reveal sources to you on a public board. For one, several of them work for the club and would be fired.

For another, yes, there are several veteran people both associated with this venture and formerly who know why it's eventually going to collapse. I've discussed team budgets with one of the owners and previously with the current president of USL pro.

Simply put, to succeed in North America, almost nothing can be seen to be "second rate." It either has to be "amateur" or "top flight." Every other secondary-but-pro league started in the U.S. for every othersport -- basketball, football and baseball -- has failed for that exact reason.

Again, Richard, I ask you for arguments and you can just throw back "oh I don't trust your source."

WHAT'S YOUR POSITION? How did you achieve it? What facts, or even assertions, beyond the name-value of the NASL, are you using?

There's no point trying to have a debate with someone who's just being obstinate.

I won't be obstinate.

I'm not surprised that the president of USL Pro thinks the NASL will fail. They're competitors, and they have an especially nasty relationship. I'm also not surprised that former team owners think it will collapse... no doubt, that's why they're former owners... and I would be very surpised if any current owners believe it's going to fail. Why would they stay on board?

I think the top-flight argument is a little simplistic. The CFL is not top flight, it does fine, Triple-A baseball in the States is popular, and the whole NCAA system is not top flight either. For that matter, MLS is not top-flight when you step outside US borders. Furthermore, Seattle, Portland, Vancouver, Puerto Rico, and Montreal all ran organizations that are/were a damn-sight more successful than some "top flight" clubs in MLS.

NASL can be successful as long as 1) MLS treats them seriously, 2) there is enough inter-league play between NASL and MLS sides, and 3) NASL organizations are run with some professionalism. It's not rocket science, you just need to convince enough fans that it's fun to go to soccer games and support a local club. Provide fans with a lot of access, keep them invloved in social media, and do everything you can to provide a great game-day experience.

[foreverthursday]

Technically true, relatively pointless.

If they can't tell a substantive difference because they use THE SAME PLAYERS, as you've noted, then it's an apples and oranges comparison. That's not two different levels of production value, two different levels of sport. It's the same, dressed up differently to accommodate winter.

Football isn't like that. You can't take a group of indoor players and move them outdoors and have people show up en masse just because you say one is of a higher level than the other. That's been tried several times, and has failed every time.

The average football fan in north america already supports an overseas team. They have minimum expectations that have to be met as consumers. If the almost absolute lack of apparent interest locally wasn't an indication this is true -- after about two years of "promoting -- I'm not sure what would be.

As for whether we need the U.S. for that, I'd argue that another league other than MLS will NEVER make money in the U.S., unless it massively closes the gap between what we've seen so far and what the top league offers.

Although I am glad that you mentioned lacrosse. Those two leagues want each other to succeed. I think that has everything to do with this.

Let me explain. Both have fought to market themselves as best as they can afford, and when that budget gets tight, they beg, plead, wrench, bludgeon, and altogether convince local, national, and international companies to sponser them pretty decently.

They need each other. If one league gets some new fans, then there are new fans of lacrosse. And with lacrosse going nearly year round it can keep those fans appitites wetted. It also helps that those companies it convinced to sponser them or partner with are ESPN2, TSN2, Universal Sports, and local channels such as Shaw and Citytv.

So far Lacrosse has completely succeeded where other sports leagues, who think the fans of that sport will just show up without much marketing, have failed. Until I moved to Edmonton, the only thing I knew about lacrosse was that stripper/Duke scandel.

[ted]

I still think a NA second division is doomed, on the face of what people here find acceptable as a major-ticket expense.

Very good question, so I created a new thread just for this discussion: Is a 2nd Division Sustainable?

[brettinhalifax]

Ooops! you were close, but completely wrong! the NLL is the second division and the MLL is first. They are different because one is outdoor, and one is box, and both share players because the outdoor league is summertime.

Sorry jloome, but you failed that homework assignment completely.

Edit: I just re-read it it, and I meant to say box-ish. It evolved out of box lacrosse, but the NLL isn't true "box lacrosse."

I think you rank a F too.

How can you say MLL is 1st division and NLL is second division? First of all, they are different sports. They are more different than Rugby Union and Rugby League. More different than Canadian and American football.

You're saying that box and field lacrosse are the same sport... except that the field size is different, the equipment is different, the rules are different and the number of players per side is different. Maybe the best comparison is bandy and hockey. Never heard of bandy? It is also called Russian hockey, played on a soccer sized ice sheet, it has different equipment, different rules and a different number of players on the ice. So by your definition the NHL is the best bandy league in the world.

Secondly, if you want to rank the 2 pro lacrosse leagues as 1st and 2nd, wouldn't it make sense to rank the oldest league with higher attendance, that plays more games and has more teams as 1st division?

That would be the NLL.

[jloome]

I won't be obstinate.

I'm not surprised that the president of USL Pro thinks the NASL will fail.

They're competitors, and they have an especially nasty relationship. I'm also not surprised that former team owners think it will collapse... no doubt, that's why they're former owners... and I would be very surpised if any current owners believe it's going to fail. Why would they stay on board?

I think the top-flight argument is a little simplistic. The CFL is not top flight, it does fine, Triple-A baseball in the States is popular, and the whole NCAA system is not top flight either. For that matter, MLS is not top-flight when you step outside US borders. Furthermore, Seattle, Portland, Vancouver, Puerto Rico, and Montreal all ran organizations that are/were a damn-sight more successful than some "top flight" clubs in MLS.

NASL can be successful as long as 1) MLS treats them seriously, 2) there is enough inter-league play between NASL and MLS sides, and 3) NASL organizations are run with some professionalism. It's not rocket science, you just need to convince enough fans that it's fun to go to soccer games and support a local club. Provide fans with a lot of access, keep them invloved in social media, and do everything you can to provide a great game-day experience.

I'm not talking about the former owner, I'm talking about the current owner. And I interviewed Tim when he was VP and the NASl teams were in his league, so I'm not sure of the relevance there. Those conversations convinced me everyone involved was inept; I have no reason to think any of that has changed.

They've never had your third point "3) NASL organizations are run with some professionalism." And the reason is that they don't understand or respect the maturity of their collective audience.

The very reason I'm suggesting a higher level than NASL is to engender exactly that: a professional plan and market-based approach. Very few clubs at that level are ready.

AS to the other comparisons, again, I think the point that soccer is a different market is being missed.

Soccer fans will not support "The minor leagues" as with baseball and the NCAA, because their culture has never had that. It has had tiers, but you local club is always striving to reach a higher level and is your local club. And you need people who entrenched in the CURRENT pro game to be your fan base.

Football fans internationally support smaller teams out of sense of community. But they still require a minimum standard of professionalism -- on this we've agreed -- and I'm absolutely guaranteeing you (and I'll lay money on this with anyone on the board) -that the NASL in its current form is not even close to sufficient.

You're right: the NASL COULD make it. But it won't.

And Richard, I just said I didn't see anyone stepping up right now. Things can change awfully quickly. Ask a Toronto Lynx fan circa 2005.

[foreverthursday]

I think you rank a F too.

How can you say MLL is 1st division and NLL is second division? First of all, they are different sports. They are more different than Rugby Union and Rugby League. More different than Canadian and American football.

You're saying that box and field lacrosse are the same sport... except that the field size is different, the equipment is different, the rules are different and the number of players per side is different. Maybe the best comparison is bandy and hockey. Never heard of bandy? It is also called Russian hockey, played on a soccer sized ice sheet, it has different equipment, different rules and a different number of players on the ice. So by your definition the NHL is the best bandy league in the world.

Secondly, if you want to rank the 2 pro lacrosse leagues as 1st and 2nd, wouldn't it make sense to rank the oldest league with higher attendance, that plays more games and has more teams as 1st division?

That would be the NLL.

You are right on all counts, except that actually is how it is ranked. I stopped wrapping my head around it, but if you go digging, you will find that the MLL is ranked the highest.

[brettinhalifax]

Who ranks it that way?

[foreverthursday]

Who ranks it that way?

*shrugs* On all my time spent talking to fans online, and in the forums, everyone is unanimous that that is the pecking order of things. But it does make sense in a way. Field lacrosse is "pure" and the NLL is more spectator. So it would be like FC Edmonton using the Drillers as off season conditioning.

[brettinhalifax]

I suspect it is field lacrosse fans ranking it that way. Boxla fans would rank it the other way.

Since Americans are usually field lax and Canadians are usually boxla, it follows that the majority of people on the internets think field is the real lacrosse (therefore "1st"). I suspect that to the American mind, boxla=arena football=indoor soccer and these derivatives are inferior to the pure versions of lax/football/soccer. The big difference is that boxla has a century of history and is the dominant form of lacrosse in a significant portion of the world that plays lacrosse.

But it doesn't matter what people say on the internets... they're different sports. Sure they're similar enough that a player can play both. But just because an Aussie rules football player can play rugby doesn't make them the same sport.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Mel Kowalcuk still sounds upbeat about the prospects for sanctioning in the ICF interview and mentions going to Las Vegas this weekend to meet the USSF about it so sounds like it will make it onto the AGM agenda OK:

http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/content.php?1150-It-s-Called-Football-Guest-FC-Edmonton-GM-Mel-Kowalchuk

{starts about 15:45}

Discusses Lam loan deal to JEF United and preparations for upcoming season. Key snippets are no real contingency plan if sanctioning doesn't happen because they are confident it will be granted but plan to operate one way or another no matter what happens on that, TFC game in NCC will probably be at Commonwealth stadium with aim being to draw a very big crowd.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Brian Quarsted of the IMS blog on ICF talking about prospects for NASL sanctioning this weekend:

http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/content.php?1161-It-s-Called-Football-NASL-sanctioning-looms

{starts about 12:20}

Meeting Thursday night with a professional committee could be pivotal in getting the key thumbs up recommendation before formal vote at AGM on Saturday. All key NASL league and club execs in Las Vegas to lobby for a positive decision. Joint and several lines of credit seemed to be the key sticking point that led to issues. After that dealt with rumour is Tampa Bay had issues on liquid asset portion. Also concerns about Puerto Rico and San Antonio.

[Richard]

If the mighty Americans with ten times the population of Canada can't sustain a national D2 pro league what on earth makes people think we can in Canada?