Semi-pro Soccer Talk in Halifax

[coppercanuck]

http://thechronicleherald.ca/Sports/1190564.html

Some interesting stuff.

I still think that the CSA needs to formalize the league structure in Canada surrounding the CSL. The jump from NSSL to CSL I don't think is that big. The CSL will split into divisions once more teams in Quebec get involved. Like wise further east and west.

[VPjr]

I am happy to see that that journalists are discussing this issue. The need to expand the pool of semi pro opportunities in Canada is equally as important as creating more 1st tier (MLS/USL/NASL) full pro opportunities.

Unless we give our kids something local to aspire to, we will continue to lose players and continue to see top athletes pick other sports with better pro pathways than exists in Canadian soccer.

[ted]

The need to expand the pool of semi pro opportunities in Canada is equally as important as creating more 1st tier (MLS/USL/NASL) full pro opportunities.

Totally disagree on that one. There are plenty of amateur/semi-pro opportunities. What we are missing are the pro spots to aspire to.

[TFCRegina]

Totally disagree on that one. There are plenty of amateur/semi-pro opportunities. What we are missing are the pro spots to aspire to.

Disagree.

Amateur teams, absolutely.

Semi-pro sides are a disgrace in terms of opportunity. We only have about 20 or so (counting the PCSL and CSL together).

The major semi-pro league in this country is the CHL (players are on a pro footing and paid in university tuition), there are at least 20 in the WHL, 20 in the OHL and 20 in the QMJHL. If you want development, you need more semi-pro teams...the players at the pro level just don't pop out of nowhere. They need a clear track from the Amateur level to the Pro Level, and NCAA/CIS ain't cutting it.

[TFCRegina]

^

Also, the semi-pro teams in this country only really span southern Ontario, Montreal and BC. Not exactly what we need to draw players from all walks of life and areas of this nation.

[coppercanuck]

I would like clarification on this. Amateur vs Semi-pro? The CSL and the PCSL are often compared (with no head to head matches). The PCSL teams seem to be playing in the BC Cup which leads to the National Challenge Trophy. However, the CSL teams don't seem to be afforded the same rite via the Ontario Cup. Is this one of the (many) governance issues that Jason DeVos keeps talking about? Has the OSA ruled the CSL out of the Nationals rather than the CSA? Has the BCSA bent the rules to include the PCSL in their cup?

This is where the league systems in Canada break down. The casual fan and media won't understand the nuances of the Canadian Pyramid. Time for the CSA to step in and setup a better system? I say yes.

[ted]

I would like clarification on this. Amateur vs Semi-pro?

Wouldn't we all!

I don't really see much of a difference. In my personal opinion there are only three levels of football in this country: MLS, NASL and everything else. I lump amateur and "semi-pro" together as the differences overall appear academic. We can argue all we want about PDL versus PCSL vs CSL but in the end what really matters is that they are all not professional and are totally uninteresting to national media and sponsors. This level (in which I include college teams) currently provides plenty of room for up and coming talent which will have to be augmented by reserve teams and academies of the upper level. I am not suggesting we couldn't use more teams but only that it there is no need to spend time or effort on this level which will grow very nicely thank you if the top two segments are strongly supported and well-managed.

[ag futbol]

Ted, but the problem right now as it stands is that kids are getting to the semi-pro or pro level and mostly falling flat on their face.

The competitive structure that should prepare the very best to step up to that level is falling short. Now given the pro-level game has some issues as well, but in the end they are picking up a product and continuing to work with it. That product simply hasn't been good enough. Excuse me if that sounds Dale Mitchell esque, but the CSA combined with everyone else out there really has to build up a system that produces more talent and players with a more robust set of skills.

[VPjr]

Wouldn't we all!

I don't really see much of a difference. In my personal opinion there are only three levels of football in this country: MLS, NASL and everything else. I lump amateur and "semi-pro" together as the differences overall appear academic.

Ted, with all due respect, the difference between MOST (not all) senior amateur and Tier 3 pro (CSL) is significant, especially here in Ontario. I can't speak for how senior amateur soccer runs in other regions of the country but when you look at at the situation up close here in Ontario, you can see the huge difference between the two levels. I have the benefit of seeing it up close now and the difference is massive.

I seriously doubt you will find many senior amateur programs in Ontario (or Canada) training 3-4 x per week (90-120 minutes per session), being coached by National A License or International A license professional coaches, facing the kind of competition week in - week out that exists in the CSL, having fully integrated reserve team programs with its own reserve league, providing a good game day experience for fans, etc, etc....

MOST senior amateur soccer in this province exists to give players a place to keep playing while they go on with their non-soccer lives (excpetion being PDL, which is a fine league with a fairly good level of competition which serves the needs of returning NCAA players well).

Other than PDL, I don't see much evidence that senior amateur soccer sees player development as a key part of their mandate. In general, they simply do not train enough and they play overly compressed competition schedules.

The CSL is on track to become the league where young players who have professional ambition will be looking at seriously as a stepping stone to their ultimate goals. Not all of them will make it but the CSL is far better structured to be that stepping stone league (much in the same way as OHL is a stepping stone a pro hockey career while the other lower levels of junior hockey and senior amateur hockey really are not). In fairness, the CSL is not fully there yet but its coming along and each season will get better . Talented young Canadian players will get the opportunity to play and train alongside more veteran talent, playing a 6 month outdoor season, logging several hundred hours of training (Our players will log almost 500 hours of training time from April to October) and, in some cases, staying together during the winter as well for training and friendlies.

Again, my comments are limited to what I've seen in Ontario (mostly Southern Ontario). I am sure that a top league like PCSL or VMSL might have several programs that operate in a far more professional manner, which is fantastic.

[ted]

Ted, with all due respect...when you look at at the situation up close here in Ontario, you can see the huge difference between the two levels. I have the benefit of seeing it up close now and the difference is massive.

Fair enough. I certainly respect what you guys are doing at Milltown (BTW did you ever get paypal ordering for scarves enabled?)

What we are having is a bit of a chicken vs egg argument and despite what seems to be coming across I am NOT suggesting we don't need more Div3 teams. I just think that the way forward has been shown by MLS and we need a little more effort on making pro spots for our youth to aspire to (and use as a springboard if they have the talent and drive.) It's harder to create a slot in a 1st or 2nd division than in the 3rd so I think there needs to be a little more effort put into those spots.

That's all.

YMMV

[Jeremy]

I say that any new team is a good thing.

If you want to see if there is enogh interest for professionnal soccer in Halifax I say set up a semi-pro team, test the waters for a year or two and then you can apply for a NASL franchise.

[VPjr]

Fair enough. I certainly respect what you guys are doing at Milltown (BTW did you ever get paypal ordering for scarves enabled?)

What we are having is a bit of a chicken vs egg argument and despite what seems to be coming across I am NOT suggesting we don't need more Div3 teams. I just think that the way forward has been shown by MLS and we need a little more effort on making pro spots for our youth to aspire to (and use as a springboard if they have the talent and drive.) It's harder to create a slot in a 1st or 2nd division than in the 3rd so I think there needs to be a little more effort put into those spots.

That's all.

YMMV

Hi Ted

I do agree with you that more effort needs to be made to create more Div 1 and Div 2 sides in this country. That is critical.

We also need a strong and financially viable Tier 3 to feed domestic talent to those Div 1 and 2 sides because youth soccer alone is not doing the job. We need a level in between youth and Div 1/Div 2 to give young players the experience they need to be able to make it at the top level. That's what the CSL will evolve into here in Ontario/Quebec and what I hope will emerge in the rest of Canada.

As for Paypal, yes, you can now order our scarves online using Paypal. We have opted to use Paypal for all of our online payment processing.

[Obinna]

slightly off topic, but what are the plans regarding western expansion? i have read that the CSL are interested in expanding to winnipeg calgary edmonton saskatchwean and regina. however more recently i have also read that nasl has interest in edmonton calgary winnipeg and even a team in saskatchwean. would any nasl expansion to these cities compromise csl western expansion? thanks!

[VPjr]

slightly off topic, but what are the plans regarding western expansion? i have read that the CSL are interested in expanding to winnipeg calgary edmonton saskatchwean and regina. however more recently i have also read that nasl has interest in edmonton calgary winnipeg and even a team in saskatchwean. would any nasl expansion to these cities compromise csl western expansion? thanks!

The expansion of the CSL model into Western Canada is still on the agenda but it is not an immediately going to happen in the very short term. Commissioner DiGironimo has stated publicly on several occasions that his focus is on bringing the CSL to some of the more obvious markets in Ontario that don't currently have a club as well as possibly extending the league's reach in Quebec (if possible).

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

The stated aspiration has to be there to justify having a name that implies being fully national in scope but it's always worth bearing in mind that the CSL and its predecessors have essentially been Toronto area leagues since the 1920s and there's no reason to expect that to change any time soon because most semi-pro soccer leagues around the world typically cover an area that is easily driveable within an hour or two given players have regular 9 to 5 jobs and families/relationships to maintain. PDL or USL/NASL are much more viable options for cities elsewhere in Canada.

[coppercanuck]

I'm becoming more and more ok with the name Canadian Soccer League. If the bulk of the players, owners, money for soccer is in the GTA; then the league needs to be centred around the GTA. Sorry. I wave the flag and thump the chest as much as the next canuck. The CSL does need to expand in a few directions.

East Expansion: Montreal has to be looked at as a golden nugget. If the GTA can support 8 teams, then 4 teams in the GMA should be easy. With Trois-Rivieres coming back in 2011, Quebec City begins looking good also.

West Expansion: Adding the "CSL" moniker to a league or collection of leagues in the west is key. Adding the PCSL to the CSL umbrella just makes it easier for the casual fan and media to see the connection to these teams. A few cross over games as a league cup or play-off will go miles to improving the pro soccer scene.

Top/Bottom Expansion: Pending on your glass half empty or half full view dictates the top or bottom. Basically if the current CSL can add 2 more clubs bringing the total to 15 clubs; I'd think that is the max. A balanced 28 game schedule. 16 weeks between May 24 and Labour Day (need to double check) which seems to make a solid season. I'd try to add more teams to a second division setup. Maybe 2 regional systems, one GTA centred and one GMA centred. Winners of each get to move up (to the higher travel/cost division) and the bottom 2 of 15 drop to a place where they can save a buck and still exist (unlike Windsor)

All in all, the CSA and CSL need to lock the "brand" into the brains of the Canadian sports fan. I'm not sure if the NASL D2 model will fad away as the bigger clubs more up to the MLS. Toronto and Montreal have pushed their brands via the Academy teams into the CSL. I wish Vancouver could do the same to maintain that perceived connection between the MLS and CSL. The CSL spot in the Voyageurs Cup seems like a far off dream, but as the structure gets stronger and more professional, it can't be ignored.

[Alex D]

PDL or USL/NASL are much more viable options for cities elsewhere in Canada.

PDL is a joke, and if it ceased to exist tomorrow, I would be a happy man.

On a more positive note, I'd prefer to see eastern expansion before western. Start a separate east league for south east Quebec and Atlantic Canada, with (eventually(after both the NASL and USL die(which is imminent btw))) a Premier League above both the current and east leagues.

[TFCRegina]

PDL is a joke, and if it ceased to exist tomorrow, I would be a happy man.

On a more positive note, I'd prefer to see eastern expansion before western. Start a separate east league for south east Quebec and Atlantic Canada, with (eventually(after both the NASL and USL die(which is imminent btw))) a Premier League above both the current and east leagues.

PDL is such a joke...you know, because they've sent more players to European clubs in the past three years than all of MLS and USSF2...what a terrible league, developing youth players.

[Alex D]

PDL is such a joke...you know, because they've sent more players to European clubs in the past three years than all of MLS and USSF2...what a terrible league, developing youth players.

The PDL is not developing anything, it's a summer league for college players. Chances are these kids that went to Europe were good enough to go to Europe in the first place. All I'm saying is that the resources used to run this league would be better served focused on real youth development.

*side-note* going to Europe by no means ensures a player is going to be a superstar.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Worth bearing in mind that PDL and NCAA combined are the main source of players for MLS. PDL is sustainable from an economic standpoint for cities in relatively remote parts of North America (e.g. Thunder Bay in a Canadian context) because NCAA players are both willing and able to do the drastic amounts of bus travel required for relatively little money. In an open age semi-pro league like the CSL even the relatively short travel distance between London, Ont. and Toronto is a major issue for many of the top players in the London area. Cities like Halifax and Winnipeg are therefore complete non-starters in that context but could reasonably be expected to be able sustain a PDL franchise.

[jpg75]

I'd like to see the CSL (or whatever name they give it) to become an umbrella for all regional semi-pro soccer in this country. Ideally we would have a league in BC, AB, Prairies, ON, PQ and Atlantic. All would play their own schedule and then a national 3rd division champ. could be played between the champions.

The CSA would need to ensure that a certain set of standards would be meet so that there is an air of professional in the operation of the clubs and leagues. Should be doable though...

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Would have happened long ago if it were easily achievable. There already is a national championship based on the ten provincial cups. Making it open to semi-pro teams from the CSL by ending the outdated distinction between amateur and semi-pro competition would be the obvious solution, in my opinion.

[jpg75]

Pretty sure the CSL and PCSL had talks concerning a merger a while back, but nothing came of it after the CSL insisted the PCSL clubs pay franchise fees. There are no longer franchise fees in the CSL so maybe now there won't be that roadblock...

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Pretty sure they did as well but given the PCSL in its present incarnation is an amateur league consisting of what are often effectively regional select teams (club level soccer gets played over the winter in BC) I'm not entirely sure why you think that is relevant. It would be easy enough to cobble something together from coast to coast under the CSL name by simply factoring in all of the elite amateur provincial level leagues like the LSEQ and AMSL etc by using the existing national championship as the end of year playoffs but the CSL views itself as being a step up from that for reasons that have never been obvious to me.

[jpg75]

Hey, i don't care what leagues or clubs they are as long as they get organized regionally into a true 3rd division and are run professionally. Once a structure is in place the best amateur/semi-pro players will likely gravitate towards it.