jloome Posted August 20, 2010 Share Posted August 20, 2010 I'd like to draw to the attention of a moderator that I think this is a spam account... One line, off-topic comments and and link to a retail business are ominous clues... It's a backlink builder bot account, would be my guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie Posted August 20, 2010 Share Posted August 20, 2010 I love the fact that some of you guys are interested in this and pushing for it here in Calgary, but Pro soccer in Calgary will never be, there just isn't a strong enough fan base here, and the very few that follow football here would never pay to watch semi-pro ball. Thats just the harsh reality of it in Calgary. I share your pessimism. Growing up here I've come to see that pretty much everyone I've known who follows soccer (with myself and like 2 people being the exceptions) is a fan of Man U, Barcelona, Arsenal, Liverpool, etc.. also, apparently half the city has dutch roots if you were to judge by world cup bar crowds. It is not cool to follow or even acknowledge Canada as a soccer team, or to follow any canadian club. A D2 club here would be met with indifference, total ignorance, or the "we must suck even though I've never seen a game" mentality that is a plague in canadian soccer. For a pro soccer club to draw fans in Calgary, it would have to either draw fans that previously weren't into soccer at all (highly unlikely) or a significant portion of the snobs would have to have their minds changed, which I think could happen if Canada were to qualify for the world cup AND have a decent showing (as 3 group stage losses wouldn't sway many minds). As it stands now, a soccer team here would be a failure as it was with the Storm/Mustangs 6 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brettinhalifax Posted August 21, 2010 Share Posted August 21, 2010 I'll buy into the whole euro-snob argument against the viability of soccer in Calgary/Alberta/Canada once soccer fails in a suitably sized soccer specific stadium. (a ssSSS) The Vipers draw 1,600 to watch baseball in a league that is probably around the 5th level of the North American baseball pyramid (if there was such a thing) which is comparable to Conference National attendance. The Roughnecks draw around 10,000 to lacrosse! Once there is an appropriate stadium, a reasonable (but sustainable) budget and some marketing and it still fails, then I'll concede you're right. Part of my reasoning is the success of the Halifax Rainmen. They average over 3,000 a game playing minor league basketball. (IMO minor league basketball is an even bigger train wreck than Div 2 soccer) They get the crowds by providing an entertaining product, a good atmosphere and promoting the heck out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadianSoccerFan Posted August 21, 2010 Share Posted August 21, 2010 I share your pessimism. Growing up here I've come to see that pretty much everyone I've known who follows soccer (with myself and like 2 people being the exceptions) is a fan of Man U, Barcelona, Arsenal, Liverpool, etc.. also, apparently half the city has dutch roots if you were to judge by world cup bar crowds. It is not cool to follow or even acknowledge Canada as a soccer team, or to follow any canadian club. A D2 club here would be met with indifference, total ignorance, or the "we must suck even though I've never seen a game" mentality that is a plague in canadian soccer. For a pro soccer club to draw fans in Calgary, it would have to either draw fans that previously weren't into soccer at all (highly unlikely) or a significant portion of the snobs would have to have their minds changed, which I think could happen if Canada were to qualify for the world cup AND have a decent showing (as 3 group stage losses wouldn't sway many minds). As it stands now, a soccer team here would be a failure as it was with the Storm/Mustangs 6 years ago. It's posts like these that make me want to bury my head in my hands and cry. That said, this described most TFC fans in year 1 of the team's existence. Most had a "f*** Canada" attitude when it came to the possibility of losing Jim Brennan to the 2007 Gold Cup but these attitudes gradually changed with an increased emotional investment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie Posted August 21, 2010 Share Posted August 21, 2010 I'll buy into the whole euro-snob argument against the viability of soccer in Calgary/Alberta/Canada once soccer fails in a suitably sized soccer specific stadium. (a ssSSS) The Vipers draw 1,600 to watch baseball in a league that is probably around the 5th level of the North American baseball pyramid (if there was such a thing) which is comparable to Conference National attendance. The Roughnecks draw around 10,000 to lacrosse! Baseball and lacrosse doing well does not prove that soccer would do well. I'll even dispute that the vipers are doing well. While they manage to stay afloat financially, they only draw a fraction of the crowds that the cannons drew in the 80s and 90s (i.e. when baseball was actually popular around here) and the atmosphere is pretty weak when you're playing in a quarter-full stadium. I went to the championship game last year and even that was barely half full. As for lacrosse, yes the roughnecks are a great success, but I don't think it can be compared to soccer. The NLL is the top professional competition in lacrosse period, so the rather large niche of lacrosse fans has no reason to turn up their noses at it. Compare that to soccer, where as I said in my previous post, the majority of calgarians who follow it don't give a crap about NASL or even MLS. Your point about having a reasonably sized SSS and marketing it properly is a fair one, but at the moment no such facility exists and who in their right mind would invest in such a venture when all signs point to failure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreverthursday Posted August 22, 2010 Share Posted August 22, 2010 Baseball and lacrosse doing well does not prove that soccer would do well. I'll even dispute that the vipers are doing well. While they manage to stay afloat financially, they only draw a fraction of the crowds that the cannons drew in the 80s and 90s (i.e. when baseball was actually popular around here) and the atmosphere is pretty weak when you're playing in a quarter-full stadium. I went to the championship game last year and even that was barely half full. As for lacrosse, yes the roughnecks are a great success, but I don't think it can be compared to soccer. The NLL is the top professional competition in lacrosse period, so the rather large niche of lacrosse fans has no reason to turn up their noses at it. Compare that to soccer, where as I said in my previous post, the majority of calgarians who follow it don't give a crap about NASL or even MLS. Your point about having a reasonably sized SSS and marketing it properly is a fair one, but at the moment no such facility exists and who in their right mind would invest in such a venture when all signs point to failure? Hey Scottie, I think you might be a little too down in the dumps with this argument. You may be right short view, but look at how the whitecaps have already sold 13,000 season tickets. I think more Canadian channels will get MLS rights for broadcasting and as the excitement grows in a few cities other Canadians will start to notice and take interest. I say that because I enjoy soccer from the Toronto FC. I got excited because other people were excited. I don't like the snobbery at all, and I don't mind telling you that just today I learned that a skipper is the same thing as a captain (I am not lying about that either, I thought it was a nickname for a keeper). I grew up with hockey in Alaska. I am a HUGE habs fan. I love hockey way more. WAY MORE than I will ever love soccer, but I am still here and not planning on missing any FC Edmonton matches next year. In fact I might go to Vancouver to watch them play the whitecaps in the Nutrilite tourney. If you tell people to take interest in something then they will. How do you think people actually like most of these crappy radio rock bands? Because they listen to a radio station who gets paid to play and push crappy bands. I am not saying that soccer is a crappy product, but I am saying that you want to sell it. Because weeping in your pint will only reinforce the stereotype that Calgarians have of the sport, that it isn't going anywhere in Calgary. What is the old adage? "If you build it they will come." Marketing, branding, label imprinting, and advertising are all becoming personal, like those commercials for cell phones. "You don't need to get a phone, you need a phone that gets you." By using Facebook, Twitter, Myspace we sell ourselves everyday, because we portray to other people what we want them to see us as. If you saw "my favourite movies" on my facebook you would see a bunch of pop-culture indie movies that I haven't actually watched in a couple of years. Be excited about it, and people will want to know what you are excited about. Be down about it and no one will want to touch it with a thousand foot pole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macksam Posted August 22, 2010 Share Posted August 22, 2010 ^^^I will agree with ForeverThursday on the fact that when we have 3 teams in the MLS, other cities will take notice of it since the CBC will be all over it coverage wise. It will gauge interest in other football markets like Calgary, Winnipeg or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brettinhalifax Posted August 22, 2010 Share Posted August 22, 2010 Baseball and lacrosse doing well does not prove that soccer would do well. I'll even dispute that the vipers are doing well. While they manage to stay afloat financially, they only draw a fraction of the crowds that the cannons drew in the 80s and 90s (i.e. when baseball was actually popular around here) and the atmosphere is pretty weak when you're playing in a quarter-full stadium. I went to the championship game last year and even that was barely half full. My point with baseball was that with the Cannons, Calgary once had a team in arguably the third or forth best league in the world. And now that team is gone and baseball aficionados for the most part watch the sport on their sofas following their favorite big league team south of the border. Yet still, there's a market for live professional baseball in Calgary even though there are very few Vipers fans. I'd bet that nearly half of the people at a Vipers game is a Yankees, Mariners, Blue Jays or Red Sox "fan" and the rest are just looking for something to do on a beautiful evening. Soccer is, for the most part, a TV sport in Canada. But I believe that there is a market for live (low level) soccer just like there is for live (low level) baseball. As for lacrosse, yes the roughnecks are a great success, but I don't think it can be compared to soccer. The NLL is the top professional competition in lacrosse period, so the rather large niche of lacrosse fans has no reason to turn up their noses at it. Compare that to soccer, where as I said in my previous post, the majority of calgarians who follow it don't give a crap about NASL or even MLS. Maybe you're right but the fact of the matter is that most Calgarians don't care about lacrosse. Even in Canada, or a successful NLL market like Calgary, lacrosse is off the radar screen for the majority of sports fans. But they can still draw 10,000 a game even if it is a niche sport. How many of those were lacrosse fans before the Roughnecks played their first game? I'd bet not many. You don't have to convert all of the euro-snobs. You actually don't have to convert any... you just need to find some that are willing to support a local side in addition to their favorite team in their Grandfather's home country. Your point about having a reasonably sized SSS and marketing it properly is a fair one, but at the moment no such facility exists and who in their right mind would invest in such a venture when all signs point to failure? In Alberta and Canada, government is in the business of building sports venues. They paid for 70% of McMahon and built the Max Bell Centre, the Jack Simpson Gymnasium, the Olympic Oval, etc. All of those venues have thousands of seats that only get used a few times a year. And the Saddledome. And whenever they get around to replacing Rexall up here, it will be 50% or more paid for by the government. A $10 million soccer stadium like Saputo Stadium isn't too much to ask for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brettinhalifax Posted August 22, 2010 Share Posted August 22, 2010 Just one more thing (not in response to Scottie so here it is in a different post) I'm a recent soccer convert. I'm actually a football guy. I'll watch CFL, NFL, NCAA, CIS and for the last three years I watched my cousin play High school football out in Halifax. IMO a live HS football game is a lot more fun to watch than a one sided NFL game on TV. I don't think I'm that unique (look at AJHL attendances) if you love a sport, you'll watch whatever you can get your hands on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted August 23, 2010 Share Posted August 23, 2010 Something to bear in mind maybe is that one of the problems with getting D2 soccer to work in cities like Edmonton and Calgary is that players usually have to be brought in from elsewhere in order to be competitive with teams from larger population centres. That can be very expensive (i.e. a barebones approach isn't viable, there needs to be genuine full-time professionalism) and difficult to sustain if crowds of at least 4000 fail to materialize. I think Hamilton is the best bet for getting D2 to work in the short term because the players are readily available locally in the Golden Horseshoe to still field a reasonably competitive team at that level in a Toronto Lynx sort of way even if it takes time for support to build. It's worth bearing in mind that it took fully 15 years for things to start to take off in a big way in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver and a lot of that was down to finally getting stable deep-pocketed ownership and viable stadium solutions in place. Pro soccer could be made to work in cities like Calgary because the latent interest in the product is almost certainly there nowadays but it's far from a sure thing. Seems to me a lot of would-be investors have seen the success of TFC and may be naively assuming that all they need to do is set up shop for something similar to happen in other Canadian cities and are ignoring the difference in demographics (about 50% of Toronto's population were born overseas), in the level of soccer (D2 was largely ignored in Toronto in contrast with MLS) and the importance in finally getting a suitable stadium in the shape of BMO Field (playing on visible CFL markings doesn't cut it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreverthursday Posted August 23, 2010 Share Posted August 23, 2010 Something to bear in mind maybe is that one of the problems with getting D2 soccer to work in cities like Edmonton and Calgary is that players usually have to be brought in from elsewhere in order to be competitive with teams from larger population centres. That can be very expensive (i.e. a barebones approach isn't viable, there needs to be genuine full-time professionalism) and difficult to sustain if crowds of at least 4000 fail to materialize. I think Hamilton is the best bet for getting D2 to work in the short term because the players are readily available locally in the Golden Horseshoe to still field a reasonably competitive team at that level in a Toronto Lynx sort of way even if it takes time for support to build. It's worth bearing in mind that it took fully 15 years for things to start to take off in a big way in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver and a lot of that was down to finally getting stable deep-pocketed ownership and viable stadium solutions in place. Pro soccer could be made to work in cities like Calgary because the latent interest in the product is almost certainly there nowadays but it's far from a sure thing. Seems to me a lot of would-be investors have seen the success of TFC and may be naively assuming that all they need to do is set up shop for something similar to happen in other Canadian cities and are ignoring the difference in demographics (about 50% of Toronto's population were born overseas), in the level of soccer (D2 was largely ignored in Toronto in contrast with MLS) and the importance in finally getting a suitable stadium in the shape of BMO Field (playing on visible CFL markings doesn't cut it). Well I am a bit upset at how hard we had to work to bring so many players from Ontario, I just don't think we can win a single game if we use any players from the prairies. 13 Michael Cox Hometown: Calgary Position: Striker 15 André Duberry Born: 24/8/1982 Hometown: Calgary Position: Defender 18 Paul Hamilton Hometown: Calgary Position: Defender 20 Chris Kooy Born: 11/6/1982 Hometown: Calgary Position: Midfielder 21 Matt Lam Hometown: Edmonton Position: Midfielder 22 Sam Lam Hometown: Edmonton Position: Midfielder 9 Chris Lemire Born: 3/11/1983 Hometown: Edmonton Position: Midfielder 14 Paul Matthijs Hometown: Eelde, Netherlands Position: Midfielder 23 Daylan Meyer Hometown: Calgary Position: Defender 12 Neto Miguel Born: 4/1/1988 Hometown: Sao Paulo, Brasil Position: Defender 3 Antonio Rago Born: 5/11/1990 Hometown: Edmonton Position: Defender 4 Niko Saler Born: 15/4/1992 Hometown: Lethbridge Position: Defender 24 Sander van Gessel Born: 11/4/1976 Hometown: Breda, Netherlands Position: Defender 6 Shaun Saiko Born: 13/11/1989 Hometown: Edmonton Position: Midfielder 17 Ezra Schrijver Hometown: Paterswolte, Netherlands Position: Striker 5 Thiago Silva Hometown: Brasilia, Brasil Position: Midfielder 8 Milan Timotijevic Born: 9/7/1989 Hometown: Belgrade, Serbia Position: Striker 10 Kyle Yamada Born: 12/4/1983 Hometown: Calgary Position: Striker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trident Posted August 23, 2010 Share Posted August 23, 2010 Well I am a bit upset at how hard we had to work to bring so many players from Ontario, I just don't think we can win a single game if we use any players from the prairies. Position: Striker 13 Michael Cox Hometown: Calgary Position: Striker 15 André Duberry Born: 24/8/1982 Hometown: Calgary Position: Defender 18 Paul Hamilton Hometown: Calgary Position: Defender 20 Chris Kooy Born: 11/6/1982 Hometown: Calgary Position: Midfielder 21 Matt Lam Hometown: Edmonton Position: Midfielder 22 Sam Lam Hometown: Edmonton Position: Midfielder 9 Chris Lemire Born: 3/11/1983 Hometown: Edmonton Position: Midfielder 14 Paul Matthijs Hometown: Eelde, Netherlands Position: Midfielder 23 Daylan Meyer Hometown: Calgary Position: Defender 12 Neto Miguel Born: 4/1/1988 Hometown: Sao Paulo, Brasil Position: Defender 3 Antonio Rago Born: 5/11/1990 Hometown: Edmonton Position: Defender 4 Niko Saler Born: 15/4/1992 Hometown: Lethbridge Position: Defender 24 Sander van Gessel Born: 11/4/1976 Hometown: Breda, Netherlands Position: Defender 6 Shaun Saiko Born: 13/11/1989 Hometown: Edmonton Position: Midfielder 17 Ezra Schrijver Hometown: Paterswolte, Netherlands Position: Striker 5 Thiago Silva Hometown: Brasilia, Brasil Position: Midfielder 8 Milan Timotijevic Born: 9/7/1989 Hometown: Belgrade, Serbia Position: Striker 10 Kyle Yamada Born: 12/4/1983 Hometown: Calgary Position: Striker To have Canadians in general is a good thing, if it works out. No need to rush into building off the prairries before year 1. Good start though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jloome Posted August 23, 2010 Share Posted August 23, 2010 My point with baseball was that with the Cannons, Calgary once had a team in arguably the third or forth best league in the world. And now that team is gone and baseball aficionados for the most part watch the sport on their sofas following their favorite big league team south of the border. Yet still, there's a market for live professional baseball in Calgary even though there are very few Vipers fans. I'd bet that nearly half of the people at a Vipers game is a Yankees, Mariners, Blue Jays or Red Sox "fan" and the rest are just looking for something to do on a beautiful evening. Soccer is, for the most part, a TV sport in Canada. But I believe that there is a market for live (low level) soccer just like there is for live (low level) baseball. Maybe you're right but the fact of the matter is that most Calgarians don't care about lacrosse. Even in Canada, or a successful NLL market like Calgary, lacrosse is off the radar screen for the majority of sports fans. But they can still draw 10,000 a game even if it is a niche sport. How many of those were lacrosse fans before the Roughnecks played their first game? I'd bet not many. You don't have to convert all of the euro-snobs. You actually don't have to convert any... you just need to find some that are willing to support a local side in addition to their favorite team in their Grandfather's home country. In Alberta and Canada, government is in the business of building sports venues. They paid for 70% of McMahon and built the Max Bell Centre, the Jack Simpson Gymnasium, the Olympic Oval, etc. All of those venues have thousands of seats that only get used a few times a year. And the Saddledome. And whenever they get around to replacing Rexall up here, it will be 50% or more paid for by the government. A $10 million soccer stadium like Saputo Stadium isn't too much to ask for. What he said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StartingEleven Posted August 23, 2010 Share Posted August 23, 2010 I'll further explain where I'm coming from... I grew up in Calgary, 20 plus years... then moved to Vancouver for another 10 years, now I've been back in Calgary for the last five. I've played Soccer from kiddie amateur Calgary Minor Soccer, to a couple of games in the PCL in Vancouver well over a decade ago and I'm now back to playing in an over 35 league in Calgary. I've known many "footballers" over the years and Canadian [Club] Soccer is still a hard sell in any if not all of those locker rooms, I mean even in Vancouver there really is just only a good hardcore group that has grown over a couple generation's because the Whitecaps have a long history there, like in Toronto with TFC. There are alot of people (adults) playing the game here (Calgary), they just don't care about the MLS let alone div2. Its not pessimism, at least I don't think so, I desperately want Soccer to become in Canada what it was in Vancouver in the late 70's, I just don't see it happening in Calgary. And Edmonton is in for a rough ride too IMHO, but I've never lived there so I don't know anything about the Soccer culture there. On the flip-side, the soccer fever in Vancouver and Montreal is for real, and I do think it will explode there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macksam Posted August 23, 2010 Share Posted August 23, 2010 There are alot of people (adults) playing the game here (Calgary), they just don't care about the MLS let alone div2. Nobody does until it comes to them so saying that doesn't mean much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted August 24, 2010 Share Posted August 24, 2010 Well I am a bit upset at how hard we had to work to bring so many players from Ontario, I just don't think we can win a single game if we use any players from the prairies. Who said anything about bringing in players from Ontario and who said no players from the prairies could ever be used? Hope you are not about to launch into some east-west sort of thing. In years past lower mainland BC has often been the place to look for players to play at the D2 sort of level. In 1987 the Calgary Kickers won the championship during the first season of the original CSL using a team that as far as I remember was mainly drawn from the Vancouver area. Crowds were not sufficient to sustain the expenditure required to do that and when local players were used instead on-field performance soon deteriorated. By the end of the 1989 season the franchise folded. That could be perceived as ancient history now so it's worth bearing in mind also that in 2001 the Calgary Storm did well initially in a PDL context but things quickly turned sour at the D2 level and the franchise folded at the end of the third season in the A League. It would be nice to think that things would be completely different now but until at least one financially sustainable D2 level team has emerged in a city other than Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver there is no concrete evidence for that standpoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreverthursday Posted August 24, 2010 Share Posted August 24, 2010 Who said anything about bringing in players from Ontario and who said no players from the prairies could ever be used? Hope you are not about to launch into some east-west sort of thing. In years past lower mainland BC has often been the place to look for players to play at the D2 sort of level. In 1987 the Calgary Kickers won the championship during the first season of the original CSL using a team that as far as I remember was mainly drawn from the Vancouver area. Crowds were not sufficient to sustain the expenditure required to do that and when local players were used instead on-field performance soon deteriorated. By the end of the 1989 season the franchise folded. That could be perceived as ancient history now so it's worth bearing in mind also that in 2001 the Calgary Storm did well initially in a PDL context but things quickly turned sour at the D2 level and the franchise folded at the end of the third season in the A League. It would be nice to think that things would be completely different now but until at least one financially sustainable D2 level team has emerged in a city other than Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver there is no concrete evidence for that standpoint. No east west thing at all. I wrote that in a rush before work, and I didn't truly explain properly. I was responding just to these couple lines that you wrote; Something to bear in mind maybe is that one of the problems with getting D2 soccer to work in cities like Edmonton and Calgary is that players usually have to be brought in from elsewhere in order to be competitive with teams from larger population centres. You are right in the essence that as a startup we really needed non rookie outsiders with pro soccer under their belts, but I think having so many good local players has been a wonderful success for Edmonton financially as well being a selling point for Edmontonians who are starved for a sports team that isn't struggling to overcome bedwetting. Those Alberta kids are tearing it up on FCE, and not looking back either, and I hope management for FCE doesn't cut them heading into the initial NASL season because they have proved they deserve a chance once after the success in the games this summer. I hope that makes more sense? I also randomly picked Ontario as a hub for soccer player development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Posted August 24, 2010 Share Posted August 24, 2010 I loved it. He was arrogant and condescending and you called him on it perfectly. Kudos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted August 24, 2010 Share Posted August 24, 2010 Those Alberta kids are tearing it up on FCE, and not looking back either, and I hope management for FCE doesn't cut them heading into the initial NASL season.... I'd be wary about drawing any sweeping conclusions from a series of exhibition games in that regard. There's a good chance there is another Jason Devos (first pro team was London Lasers in the original CSL back in 1990) or Lars Hirschfeld (came to prominence in CMNT terms while playing for Calgary in the A League) amongst them but there is only so far that can be pushed in numbers terms. Think a few experienced Dutch players and a veteran Dutch coach were brought in as well for this summer's games and the key to viability will be having large enough crowds to make that kind of thing doable on an ongoing basis. Hopefully they are not budgeting for an 11,000 break even point like the Aviators did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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