SFU NCAA Div II 2011

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by VPjr

^ Actually, it would not surprise me if there are at least 1 or 2 more young women who will be getting a sniff at the WNT who are presently involved with CIS Schools.

But, until then, I humbly accept defeat at the hands of Loyola

hehehe

Sadly, the CSA website isn't giving much information about the college career of some of our players (men or women) unless they are currently enrolled. I'm pretty sure some older women's NT members played in the CIS. Former players, Marie-Claude Dion and Brigitte Chandonnet from Quebec City played at Laval University.

[Vic]

I'm impressed!... some good sleuthing. Going back decades there are a lot of Canadian women because the game was far more undeveloped and the level of scholarships was not as plentiful or geographically scouted. If you open the CSA files you can see them all across the country. But in recent times a Canadian woman is a rarity (so far one player with not even one full cap) and I don't think we'll ever be able to compete for our most elite players with the American mix of money, facilities and programs (tutors, etc). Not until we have a major overhaul to our system that gives them a reason to stay.

[VPjr]

^ some talented girls are starting to choose certain CIS programs for lifestyle reasons (i.e. they'd prefer to go to Laurier, UofT, York, etc... rather than Padooka State). But, overall, I agree with you.

Some CIS programs are working harder than others to keep quality players home but its an uphill battle. NCAA seems tempting but many don't stick around long.

[Regs]

Women: Randee Hermus (SFU), Andrea Neil (UBC), Sarah Maglio (SFU), & Michelle Ring (UBC) are 4 women players that come to mind.

For men, I can think of: Mark Watson (UBC), Garrett Kusch (SFU), Scott Munson (SFU), Mark Rogers (UBC) & Jeff Clarke (SFU) are the ones that I think have senior caps and somewhat recent players. Going back further there is John Connor (SFU), Frank Ciacia (SFU), and Tony Chursky (SFU)

If you want to get into Olympic & youth teams and whatnot, there are plenty more like Mike Mosher (UBC), Rick Celebrini (UBC), Rob Reed (UBC), Troy Wood (SFU & UBC), Vince Stewart (SFU), etc, etc, etc

Obviously showing my west-coast bias

[VPjr]

Loyola, Regs is the champion, hands down....

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by VPjr

Loyola, Regs is the champion, hands down....

lol

Wait until I check that 1904 St-Louis Olympic gold medal winning team roster...

PS: The late Brian Budd played at UBC and of course won a National Championship there.

[Gordon]

Of course I was going to mention all of the individuals mentioned in this thread :-) and note also that Kayln Kyle played with the U of S.

[DoyleG]

While waiting for opportunities at a younger age, Lars played for NAIT in the ACAC (lower division than Canada West).

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by Regs

Women: Randee Hermus (SFU), Andrea Neil (UBC), Sarah Maglio (SFU), & Michelle Ring (UBC) are 4 women players that come to mind.

For men, I can think of: Mark Watson (UBC), Garrett Kusch (SFU), Scott Munson (SFU), Mark Rogers (UBC) & Jeff Clarke (SFU) are the ones that I think have senior caps and somewhat recent players. Going back further there is John Connor (SFU), Frank Ciacia (SFU), and Tony Chursky (SFU)

If you want to get into Olympic & youth teams and whatnot, there are plenty more like Mike Mosher (UBC), Rick Celebrini (UBC), Rob Reed (UBC), Troy Wood (SFU & UBC), Vince Stewart (SFU), etc, etc, etc

Obviously showing my west-coast bias

Since when has SFU been a CIS soccer school or are the criteria now morphing to simply playing for a Canadian school?

[Regs]

Attn: this is now a certified no fun zone.

[peachgrinder]

To perhaps clarify things:

Simon Fraser is a member of Canadian University Sport, competing in 6 sports. They are: Men’s and Women’s Basketball, Football, Women’s Volleyball, and Men’s and Women’s Wrestling.

They are an NAIA member as well, and compete in SOME sports at that level.

When SFU first came to Canadian athletics a few years ago, there was some concern about the integration of a program that had been competing in the US. Most of those fears did not materialize, however SFU did win the Women's basketball title this year, no?

My research while a student did look at scholarships and the like for Canadian athletes, and I have been following some of the current debates since.

As the D1 parent states, there is a moratarium on new D1 programs. However, it is rare that any new program would go the D1 route initially. Most spend a few years competing at the lower levels to build a program (in any and all sports) and then move up in the right sport at the right time. Hockey, football and basketball programs have done this.

[Richard]

Since this is a soccer forum the only sport at SFU that is germane is soccer and the soccer program has always and still does, compete in the NAIA.

[D1 parent]

The one thing I would be concerned about if I was a parent of a boy who was wanting to play Varsity Soccer at SFU, is will Title ix have any jurisdiction over a Canadian University? Or will the NCAA enforce that SFU will have to be Title ix compliant?

[Richard]

I am pretty sure that SFU will have to comply with all NCAA requirements provided such requirements don't contravene Canadian law. I am equally sure that SFU has taken all that into account.

[Vic]

Title IX has no jurisdiction outside of the USA.

[Gordon]

Title IX only applies to institutions in the United States receiving federal (as in US federal) funding.

[D1 parent]

Yes. Title ix has no jurisdiction outside of the USA, but it is very possible that the NCAA will insist that their member schools be "Title ix Compliant".

As the issue of football and Title ix is a huge issue for many NCAA schools right now, I would be surprised if any Canadian school is permitted to be exempt from complying.

I do know that any athlete wanting to attend SFU will have to write SAT or ACT's and register with the Eligibility Center.

[Vic]

Very interesting topic D1, thanks for broaching it. It gets even more interesting when a student athlete sues SFU over a mandated IX requirement which is in direct contravention of something like the Charter of Rights, etc.

[VPjr]

^ you just gave some opportunistic lawyer a good idea. LOL

[Duane Rollins1555362254]

I followed CIS sport very closely for many years. I continue to follow it, although not as closely, now.

This decision has to do with a long standing dispute western Canadian teams have with the rest of the country (with a few exceptions). It basically boils down to the rules that govern athletic scholarships. Canada West wants those rules to be more liberal. The rest of the country is concerned that doing so is a slippery slope into the worst that NCAA has to offer.

One thing that is important to realize is that Canadian schools do give athletic scholarships (although they are called “athletic awards )) SFU and UBC just want to be able to give more and have less restrictions on how they give them.

Currently CIS schools can’t offer awards to incoming students. The thinking behind that is that they don’t want schools entering into bidding wars for players in high school. They want student-athletes to chose their schools for academic reasons primarily, rather than by who is offering the most scholarship money (several CIS schools get around the no entry level rule by engaging in a practice known as “double-dipping” – they give the students an award the day after their first year ends --usually May 1-- and then again just before their second season starts four months later. They effectively get a first year scholarship; it’s just given at the end of the year instead of the start). The west wants that restriction taken away.

CIS awards are currently capped at tuition plus fees – that is to say that you can only give an award that covers tuition and fees. There is no way to increase that amount to cover a student’s living expenses. The west wants to be able to give as much as it wants.

Although I can see the west’s side on both of the above points they lose me on two others, both academically focused. Right now the CIS does not allow student-athletes that have an average of less than 65% to receive awards (it’s 70% in Ontario). The west fought tooth and nail against having any academic requirement. Unbelievably I had once a western football (gridiron) coach tell me that he had no problem giving an award to a student on academic probation.

Also, unlike the NCAA, the CIS currently does not require its athletic programs to disclose things like graduation rates or team GPAs. Lead by Ontario there is a movement to require public disclosure (to help parents and prospective students chose schools) of academic achievement. The west wants no part of it arguing that they should be trusted to take care the academic side of things. Self-policing has worked oh so well in the NCAA...(which DOES require its schools to disclose academic data!).

I really have very little time SFU and UBC in this fight. Rather than build or own system, which is a hell of a lot better than it gets credit for, they want to take their ball and go play elsewhere. At least with SFU they have roots in the NAIA system, whereas UBC has no excuse whatsoever other than its own damn arrogance that it thinks that it can do better in the NCAA (here’s an idea Thunderbirds...win in ****** CanWest first).

The CIS has made a lot of progress in recent years on the scholarship front. CIS athletes do receive support – good support in many cases – for their education. Yet we don’t have the same problems that make the NCAA so distasteful on so many levels. Why we would want to emulate that system (especially when there is a significant movement in the US to pull back from its obscene spending and lack of academic focus) is beyond me.

NCAA D2 is, at best, about equal in quality to the CIS. But instead of playing schools that your students can relate to – Uof Sask, U of A, Calgary, etc. – you’re playing Upper Armpit Tech. Have fun marketing that.

Not everything they do down there is better.

[VPjr]

^ well said Duane....

[Gordon]

Just some additional perspective on the scholarship front. It is a difficult issue for sure as one tries to balance both the student and the athlete components of Student-Athlete. First of all, in the case of football, how many players are making the jump from Junior to CFL - very few. So in essence, in the absence of an effective alternative, an athlete's only road to a professional career is through University football. So what about the player who is not academically inclined, what about he guy who wants to be a football player not a physicist/historian/teacher etc? Second, many very good athletes choose US programs, rather than Canadian, simply because of the financial incentive to do so. Even in the absence of full ride scholarships. Sure, the U of S was never going to convince a player like Ruben Mayes to forgo Washington State, but they also routinely loose top student-athletes to places like ND-Fargo and other NAIA and NCAA II schools who can offer scholarships and lowish tuition rates. Lastly, a kid with a 96% average who runs the hundred meters in 14+ seconds will have a vast array of scholarship options and univsersities offering various inducements for their attendance. Why should that be different for a kid with an 82% average and runs the 100 meters in 10.3 secs?

Don't get me wrong, I am not interested in a NCAA style scholarship circus, and I have no time for SFU, UBC, Carelton and any others looking at the NCAA as a way around the scholarship limits. But I would like to see athletic scholarships available 1st year students and I'd like to see living expenses avialable to be included even if with a means test. A student athlete making a commitment to both academics and athletics is not going to be able to work at part-time jobs as well if he/she comes from a family of limited means. And there are actually qualified student athletes who do choose other than University for reasons of cost.

There are real "issues" that surround the scholarship debate. While one might question the value of university athletics, one could equally question the value of anything other that the strictly academic that goes on at the various campuses around Canada. But then, one of the advantages of the Noprth American University system is the richness and diversity of the experience, former student athletes are disproportionately represented in leadership positions in our society and, as George Lafond, former VP of the SFN and past Chief of the Muskeg First Nation discovered in his work on post secondary education, student athletes as the U of S have a higher graduation rate than the general student population.

[Duane Rollins1555362254]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

Just some additional perspective on the scholarship front. It is a difficult issue for sure as one tries to balance both the student and the athlete components of Student-Athlete. First of all, in the case of football, how many players are making the jump from Junior to CFL - very few. So in essence, in the absence of an effective alternative, an athlete's only road to a professional career is through University football. So what about the player who is not academically inclined, what about he guy who wants to be a football player not a physicist/historian/teacher etc? Second, many very good athletes choose US programs, rather than Canadian, simply because of the financial incentive to do so. Even in the absence of full ride scholarships. Sure, the U of S was never going to convince a player like Ruben Mayes to forgo Washington State, but they also routinely loose top student-athletes to places like ND-Fargo and other NAIA and NCAA II schools who can offer scholarships and lowish tuition rates. Lastly, a kid with a 96% average who runs the hundred meters in 14+ seconds will have a vast array of scholarship options and univsersities offering various inducements for their attendance. Why should that be different for a kid with an 82% average and runs the 100 meters in 10.3 secs?

Don't get me wrong, I am not interested in a NCAA style scholarship circus, and I have no time for SFU, UBC, Carelton and any others looking at the NCAA as a way around the scholarship limits. But I would like to see athletic scholarships available 1st year students and I'd like to see living expenses avialable to be included even if with a means test. A student athlete making a commitment to both academics and athletics is not going to be able to work at part-time jobs as well if he/she comes from a family of limited means. And there are actually qualified student athletes who do choose other than University for reasons of cost.

There are real "issues" that surround the scholarship debate. While one might question the value of university athletics, one could equally question the value of anything other that the strictly academic that goes on at the various campuses around Canada. But then, one of the advantages of the Noprth American University system is the richness and diversity of the experience, former student athletes are disproportionately represented in leadership positions in our society and, as George Lafond, former VP of the SFN and past Chief of the Muskeg First Nation discovered in his work on post secondary education, student athletes as the U of S have a higher graduation rate than the general student population.

You make good points. To be clear I think there is a lot of value in athletics on campus and I am supportive of athletic awards. Why should an athlete be treated any different than someone who is talented in the arts (you never hear anyone complaining about a student getting an award for playing concert piano, for instance...)?

I would like to see something put in place that allows first year students to get awards. Maybe a common scholarship fund that all universities kick into that gives out equal awards to each school involved (that way everything is on the up and up). I think the COA should be more open about supporting CIS athletes and the CFL should step up its support of CIS football.

But I'm never going to be supportive of giving money to a kid that is coasting in class. I don't think 65% is too much to ask.

(As an aside, junior football does provide some access to the CFL and if more non-academic kids went that root it would improve it even more so. But this is a soccer board so I'll leave it at that).

I will give UBC credit on one front. Unlike SFU they are at least talking NCAA 1-a. If you are going to go down there you might as well challenge yourself at a level that is higher than the CIS. It would be interesting to see how a Canadian NCAA program competed in basketball and hockey...CIS basketball programs already beat 1-a teams occasionally. If you put the top 12 CIS basketball players on a single team, it would be good enough to make March Madness. And if there was a single school in Canada that was playing in the NCAA I would imagine that a lot of this country’s top players would be attracted to playing there.

A Canadian based NCAA hockey team would probably win the national championship within four years.

[ibrox]

Actually, UNB could probably have won the NCAA D1 Hockey title by now, they beat Boston College twice in UNB's rink and I think they won once in their own back yard.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by peachgrinder

As the D1 parent states, there is a moratarium on new D1 programs. However, it is rare that any new program would go the D1 route initially. Most spend a few years competing at the lower levels to build a program (in any and all sports) and then move up in the right sport at the right time. Hockey, football and basketball programs have done this.

The thing with UBC is that many of those speaking for NCAA membership haven't come from the sports you mention but those of Baseball, Volleyball, and Aquatics.

All three of these sports already enjoy existing NCAA ties and would certainly love to expand them.