SFU NCAA Div II 2011

[NHFutbol]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

NCAA Scholarship Limits 2008-09

http://www.petersons.com/education_planner/paying_article.asp?sponsor=2859&articleName=NCAA_Scholarship_Limits

The conference SFU will enter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Northwest_Athletic_Conference

Thanks to Doyle for posting the NCAA Scholarship limits. You'll notice that soccer is the only "major" team sport in which the scholarship limit (in this case 9.9) doesn't at least equal the number of players starting on the field. Some coaches have started to lobby for an increase in the number of scholarships available to them. See http://athleticbusiness.com/articles/article.aspx?articleid=2012&zoneid=8

[NHFutbol]

quote:Originally posted by ibrox

Actually, UNB could probably have won the NCAA D1 Hockey title by now, they beat Boston College twice in UNB's rink and I think they won once in their own back yard.

I'm guessing that UNB has a few ex-major junior players on their roster. They would be ineligible to play in the NCAA. Kind of an apples vs oranges comparison.

[Vic]

quote:One thing that is important to realize is that Canadian schools do give athletic scholarships (although they are called “athletic awards )) SFU and UBC just want to be able to give more and have less restrictions on how they give them.... CIS awards are currently capped at tuition plus fees – that is to say that you can only give an award that covers tuition and fees.

Sorry saw the bump and while scrolling down saw this.

There are many ways outside the regular stream to compensate (other athletic and academic or even athletic/academic awards, jobs, bursaries, etc). Healthy programs are constantly being creative in finding outside-the-box solutions to stay ahead of the curve. You can make many times the base $3,500.

That said #1, yes the CIS needs to keep moving forward and pushing their envelope too. We need to make sure we are moving as fast and far forward as possible every single year.

That said #2, the Vancouver movement has nothing to do with funding Canadian athletes.

[ibrox]

quote:Originally posted by NHFutbol

I'm guessing that UNB has a few ex-major junior players on their roster. They would be ineligible to play in the NCAA. Kind of an apples vs oranges comparison.

Whoops, forgot about that...although I forget who has played major junior in that squad last season.

[Trillium]

Carleton U this week smoked.. a Div one team in basketball .. Towson ... from Maryland.

Its clear we can in Canada compete in NCAA and the rules in NCAA lead to Canadian sport.. being better.

CIS... wont change so university will leave and go to the NCAA now they have decided to be international.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Trillium

Carleton U this week smoked.. a Div one team in basketball .. Towson ... from Maryland.

Its clear we can in Canada compete in NCAA and the rules in NCAA lead to Canadian sport.. being better.

CIS... wont change so university will leave and go to the NCAA now they have decided to be international.

Ravens Alumni 69 Towson 59

Carleton 95 Towson 83

Towson was 5-13 in conference play and 12-22 in overall competition.

So much for boasting.

[Trillium]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

Ravens Alumni 69 Towson 59

Carleton 95 Towson 83

Towson was 5-13 in conference play and 12-22 in overall competition.

So much for boasting.

2008... summer game...

http://www2.carleton.ca/goravens/m-bball/kansas-defeats-carleton-84-83-in-thrilling-preseason-exhibition-basketball-at-scotiabank-place/

The University of Kansas Jayhawks (NCAA) defeated the Carleton University Ravens (OUA-CIS), 84-83, in front of 7,189 fans at ScotiaBank Place in a thrilling preseason exhibition game showcasing top university basketball in North America. The Ravens opened the first half with a 14-4 lead over the defending NCAA Division I champion Jayhawks after just four minutes, matching Kansas in a physical battle on the boards. Strong shooting and tireless defending from both teams made for an exhilarating contest. Kansas steadily narrowed the gap before sinking a last minute basket to secure their first lead of the game, going into the halftime ahead, 43-42.

Throughout the second half the Ravens and the Jayhawks exchanged the lead as the two teams fought to break away from their opponents. Thousands of cheering fans spurred on an electrifying performance at both ends of the court.

Since your argument DoyleG seems to be you can base the result on last year performance.. Carleton lost to the NCAA champions by one point... seems Canadian University Basketball can compete with the best of NCAA.

Now back to the issue at hand the NCAA has opened the door to Canadian schools.. that was not done with the idea only one or two schools would see it as a legitimate expansion of the NCAA brand and value system.

Carleton may well decide to join up .. especially if it can go Division One in Womens hockey, Mens hockey and Mens Basketball, and run Div 3 sports in golf, baseball etc.

The big elephant in the CIS room is what may happen to football at Canadian universitys...if it goes to NCAA the CIS is dead. Smaller schools the Trents of University sport will go Div III. Schools like McGill, UBC, Toronto, Laval and Western Ontario will go Divsion I.

Leaving schools like U of A to try to get into the Big Sky conference.

[DoyleG]

Rather pathetic response trying to use a game from the year before to avoid answering the real question.

Carleton University Ravens down Towson University Tigers at the Ravens’ Nest.

Ravens complete two-game sweep of Tigers.

The Carleton University Ravens Men’s Basketball Team defeated the NCAA’s Towson University Tigers, 95-83, in an international exhibition game Tuesday night at the Ravens’ Nest. The victory capped off a two-game sweep of the American university as the Ravens Alumni Team beat the Tigers Monday night.

http://www2.carleton.ca/goravens/m-bball/carleton-university-ravens-down-towson-university-tigers-at-the-ravens%E2%80%99-nest/

You don't know what your talking about with the rest of your post. Try Again.

[Trillium]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

Rather pathetic response trying to use a game from the year before to avoid answering the real question.

Carleton University Ravens down Towson University Tigers at the Ravens’ Nest.

Ravens complete two-game sweep of Tigers.

The Carleton University Ravens Men’s Basketball Team defeated the NCAA’s Towson University Tigers, 95-83, in an international exhibition game Tuesday night at the Ravens’ Nest. The victory capped off a two-game sweep of the American university as the Ravens Alumni Team beat the Tigers Monday night.

http://www2.carleton.ca/goravens/m-bball/carleton-university-ravens-down-towson-university-tigers-at-the-ravens%E2%80%99-nest/

You don't know what your talking about with the rest of your post. Try Again.

Just what is your real question DoyleG ?

As to dont know.. hey .. possible I dont know .. do you ?

As to Try Again.. why dont you Man up as they say and pose a question?

Over to you ...

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Trillium

Just what is your real question DoyleG ?

As to dont know.. hey .. possible I dont know .. do you ?

As to Try Again.. why dont you Man up as they say and pose a question?

Over to you ...

Throughout this thread, you've shown no real understanding of what goes on in terms of the relationship between the CIS and NCAA. Winning against Kansas a couple of years ago doesn't really mean squat. Much in the same way when Concordia got an upset victory over the University of Illinois years before. Such games are of little value since the whole point is to allow teams to better evaluate the incoming prospects to their rosters. So, your response to an actual evaluation of Carelton's victories is non-existent.

You also have no clue in how the divisional in the NCAA works. Why would Trent go down to D3 in NCAA when the division doesn't allow athletic scholarships. They would simple be moving horizontally to a lesser group of colleges. U of T? They want to see themselves as an Ivy-League type school but have no interest in advancing their sports programs. Same goes with McGill, which would fit them fine as the Ivy League has very limited scholarships for sports. Academics, not sports, is their priority. You also have no understanding that Laval would have to disband their football program due to its private financing, which isn't allowed by NCAA.

So the best scenario you propose is D1 for your favorite schools with their football programs in the D1 Sub Division, the USL of NCAA football. All that effort would still leave them level with the University of Alberta, since the Big Sky conference is structured in a similar format. So all that work and you get nowhere, especially since NCAA regulations won't allow you to play football a division below the rest of your sports.

All in all, you missed the whole point of the thread in that SFU and UBC would be taking a step down, especially since the CIS teams would already have an advantage over D2 schools on the playing field. Scholarships or otherwise.

Did you even consider that? Didn't think so.

[Trillium]

quote:

Throughout this thread, you've shown no real understanding of what goes on in terms of the relationship between the CIS and NCAA.

There is no relationship.. the CIS operates in Canada the NCAA has decided to allow Canadian Universitys to join and are willing to make adjustments to its legislation to encourage Canadian Universitys into the NCAA.

quote:

Winning against Kansas a couple of years ago doesn't really mean squat. Much in the same way when Concordia got an upset victory over the University of Illinois years before. Such games are of little value since the whole point is to allow teams to better evaluate the incoming prospects to their rosters. So, your response to an actual evaluation of Carelton's victories is non-existent.

The point was and is .. Canadian schools can enter Div I or Div II conferences and compete, if you dont believe they can .. it appears you think Canadian athletes cannot compete with Americans.

quote:

You also have no clue in how the divisional in the NCAA works.

Actually I do have clue.. its you who seems confused, there are three divisions .. many like minded schools form conferences to compete in .. so you have historically black colleges in one league and small liberal arts colleges in another. The NCAA allows for greaT diversity in where you enter to play indeed some schools are "independents" not in any formal league and just arrange there games as they wish. Many universitys in Leagues play half their games outside league members.

Its a very fluid system, allowing outside games to be valued in terms of ranking.

quote:

Why would Trent go down to D3 in NCAA when the division doesn't allow athletic scholarships.

Cause Trent would clearly see itself as a non-scholarship school the philosphy at Trent would mean they would not be a Div one school or if they were only in one sport.. probably Lacrosse.. the field version.

quote:

U of T? They want to see themselves as an Ivy-League type school but have no interest in advancing their sports programs.

You might be right but if U of T does not follow a Western or McGill if they decide to go NCAA it will get left behind in terms of status and that hurts funding.

quote:

Same goes with McGill, which would fit them fine as the Ivy League has very limited scholarships for sports. Academics, not sports, is their priority.

McGill has a signifcant US student population in its graduate schools.. to go NCAA with the Harvards of US would enhance its prestige and they would do it.. in fact its clear Drew Love was hired to upgrade McGill programs after re-building Carletons competive levels.

quote:

You also have no understanding that Laval would have to disband their football program due to its private financing, which isn't allowed by NCAA.

Lavals 2 million a year budget is provided and would continue as donations from the friends of the university .. just as alums at major US football schools give and influence, the outside sources are not outside what happens at US schools.

quote:

So the best scenario you propose is D1 for your favorite schools with their football programs in the D1 Sub Division, the USL of NCAA football.

Chuckles and the Gramblings dont produce players and enjoy playing football ?

quote:

All that effort would still leave them level with the University of Alberta, since the Big Sky conference is structured in a similar format. So all that work and you get nowhere, especially since NCAA regulations won't allow you to play football a division below the rest of your sports.

Its not that you want football or hockey to play a division below but a division or two above .. see St. Lawrence and Clarkson in hockey.. Div 1 NCAA Ivy League.. other sports Div 3 regional small college league.

quote:

All in all, you missed the whole point of the thread in that SFU and UBC would be taking a step down, especially since the CIS teams would already have an advantage over D2 schools on the playing field. Scholarships or otherwise.

Step down is in the eye of the beholder.. you think its a step down ..fine.. but UBC clearly feels its not and SFU has always looked south for sport competition and the existance of a different view of University athletics, I suspect SFU wants to go NCAA to enhance its status, and increase media attention...time as in four or five years.. will tell the tale.

quote:

Did you even consider that? Didn't think so.

Consider your points .. yes I did as you can see I have a different analysis.. you can denigrate the view all you want ..and pontificate all you wish.. I happen to have a diffrent viewpoint then yours, time will tell, hopefully you know how to man up and admit that your analysis is wrong .. if my view holds out over the years.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Trillium

There is no relationship.. the CIS operates in Canada the NCAA has decided to allow Canadian Universities to join and are willing to make adjustments to its legislation to encourage Canadian Universities into the NCAA.

After clearing up you spelling.

The NCAA isn't encouraging anyone to join their organizations. Doing so would've led to a response by the CIS already. As it stands, there are really few takers on the offer by the NCAA, especially with the restrictions imposed by Division II and any further movement up.

quote:

The point was and is .. Canadian schools can enter Div I or Div II conferences and compete, if you dont believe they can .. it appears you think Canadian athletes cannot compete with Americans.

NCAA isn't allowing anyone to enter D1 for the foreseeable future, which includes American universities. Div2 is hardly a push up for the CIS since they see themselves as much higher than that. D2 also has little in terms of the revenue stream that D1 colleges have, including that there is no hockey conferences at the D2 level. Even if D1 status would be granted, Canadian universities wouldn't be able to meet the standards set out. Included in this is the period in which new colleges can't compete in the more prestigious competition, which is keep glory hunters like yourself out of the picture.

quote:

Actually I do have clue.. its you who seems confused, there are three divisions .. many like minded schools form conferences to compete in .. so you have historically black colleges in one league and small liberal arts colleges in another. The NCAA allows for great diversity in where you enter to play indeed some schools are "independents" not in any formal league and just arrange there games as they wish. Many universities in Leagues play half their games outside league members.

Its a very fluid system, allowing outside games to be valued in terms of ranking.

Its still clear that you have no idea what your talking about. You obviously never read the thread before you even bothered to post.

quote:

Cause Trent would clearly see itself as a non-scholarship school the philosophy at Trent would mean they would not be a Div one school or if they were only in one sport.. probably Lacrosse.. the field version.

The only way you will get Trent into D1 lacrosse is by agreeing to not offer scholarships or by bringing the whole sports program into D1 compliance (including the number of sports. The former is easily self-defeating while the latter would be a financial burden on the college. Again, you show yourself as having no understanding of the NCAA system.

quote:

You might be right but if U of T does not follow a Western or McGill if they decide to go NCAA it will get left behind in terms of status and that hurts funding.

As we saw with the proposed Varsity training centre and the empathy concerning its poorly performing programs, they really don't give a damn.

quote:Same goes with McGill, which would fit them fine as the Ivy League has very limited scholarships for sports. Academics, not sports, is their priority.

Which still won't do anything since the whole point of joining the NCAA is to provide athletic scholarships to Canadian talent at Canadian universities. Not to mention that McGill would have to gut ts hockey program to bring itself into line with the NCAA, which puts them out of the running for a long time.

quote:McGill has a signifcant US student population in its graduate schools.. to go NCAA with the Harvards of US would enhance its prestige and they would do it.. in fact its clear Drew Love was hired to upgrade McGill programs after re-building Carletons competive levels.

Yet Drew will get strung up if he even touches the football program, which he didn't have to deal with at Carleton.

quote:

Laval's 2 million a year budget is provided and would continue as donations from the friends of the university .. just as alums at major US football schools give and influence, the outside sources are not outside what happens at US schools.

Wouldn't comply with NCAA rules. Go look at the saga of SMU to show why your proposal wouldn't even wash.

quote:

Chuckles and the Gramblings don't produce players and enjoy playing football ?

Not to entice CIS schools to go that route.

quote:Its not that you want football or hockey to play a division below but a division or two above .. see St. Lawrence and Clarkson in hockey.. Div 1 NCAA Ivy League.. other sports Div 3 regional small college league.

Both were grandfathered into the system as they played at that level before the Divisional system was introduced. They can't bring up any other sports without their program being fully compliant with D1 in terms of sports available and scholarships offered. Same would happen with Hartwick College, which has hosted many Canadian players on their men's soccer team.

quote:

Step down is in the eye of the beholder.. you think its a step down ..fine.. but UBC clearly feels its not and SFU has always looked south for sport competition and the existence of a different view of University athletics, I suspect SFU wants to go NCAA to enhance its status, and increase media attention...time as in four or five years.. will tell the tale.

If that's the case, then why did SFU leave the NAIA and be forced to jump through the hoops with many of their teams in the CIS. There's no media attention to D2 sports in the NCAA, which makes the whole concept unattractive from the start.

quote:

Consider your points .. yes I did as you can see I have a different analysis.. you can denigrate the view all you want ..and pontificate all you wish.. I happen to have a different viewpoint then yours, time will tell, hopefully you know how to man up and admit that your analysis is wrong .. if my view holds out over the years.

Sadly, my view is shared by others on this board. Your Carleton example doesn't hold up as there's been no talk from their end. Once the CIS puts its foot down, this discussion will end.

[Trillium]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

Sadly, my view is shared by others on this board. Your Carleton example doesn't hold up as there's been no talk from their end. Once the CIS puts its foot down, this discussion will end.

If it is true that others on the board share your view.. why is that sad DoyleG ?

As to the CIS putting its foot down, not sure its the type of organisation that has much of backbone.

I come back to the saliant point, based on a number of sports, exhibition games between Canadian and American universitys show our programs can currently compete up to and within the Divsion one level, some programs of ambition who focus resources would be in the top ten percent of a particular sport if they compete in the NCAA.

[masster]

This might happen now in 2010!!

http://www.canada.com/sports/teams+join+NCAA+year+earlier/2027921/story.html

[DoyleG]

The CIS has basically put Simon Fraser's sports programs on probation starting the following season (although it current affects the athletics program).

[Vic]

quote:"You'll not only be representing SFU, and you'll not only be representing B.C.," said Lorne Davies, who oversaw every aspect of Clan sports from their birth in 1965. "You will be representing Canada. Your opponents will say 'We're playing the Canadians.' And that is a great honour."

Wrapping the flag around yourself while you abandon the Canadian system is deeply ironic.

[Richard]

^ In what way are they abandoning the Canadian system? From its inception in 1963 the policy at SFU has been to play against USA colleges and universities. SFU went the NAIA route because NCAA rules prohibited Canadian member institutions. That has now finally changed. A token number of SFU sports have played teams in CIS for the sake of convenience. NCAA membership is the fulfilment of the original intent of SFU's founders whether you agree with it or not. And Lorne Davies is quite right with his 'playing the Canadians' comment. I presume you also find it ironic then that Toronto FC, while playing in an American league, has players wearing a Canadian flag patch on their uniform sleeve? What about Montreal and Vancouver USL-1 clubs? What about all those Canadian players who abandon Canadian schools and go south for their education and sport in return for money? SFU is now offering sportsmen and women the best of both worlds, what's wrong with that?

[Trillium]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

^ In what way are they abandoning the Canadian system? From its inception in 1963 the policy at SFU has been to play against USA colleges and universities. SFU went the NAIA route because NCAA rules prohibited Canadian member institutions. That has now finally changed. A token number of SFU sports have played teams in CIS for the sake of convenience. NCAA membership is the fulfilment of the original intent of SFU's founders whether you agree with it or not. And Lorne Davies is quite right with his 'playing the Canadians' comment. I presume you also find it ironic then that Toronto FC, while playing in an American league, has players wearing a Canadian flag patch on their uniform sleeve? What about Montreal and Vancouver USL-1 clubs? What about all those Canadian players who abandon Canadian schools and go south for their education and sport in return for money? SFU is now offering sportsmen and women the best of both worlds, what's wrong with that?

Your right in you views Richard... to put it another way the beast of competition on the same level playing field is open.

If SFU runs its programs well and does well in DivII they will garner significant media attention in the BC market, that will lead to greater numbers of domestic students, but the real pot of gold is that if they do well they will get U.S. based media coverage and draw even more international students a potential rich vien of income now and in the future as alums.

Any thinking Canadian University President will be talking to U.S. univerisity presidents and getting handle on this, and then test the waters with the University Senates... NCAA memberships are going to increase, and that in my opinion is a good thing for the Canadian Sport System.

[Vic]

Full funding cuts and harsh penalties for anyone seceding.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Trillium

If SFU runs its programs well and does well in DivII they will garner significant media attention in the BC market, that will lead to greater numbers of domestic students, but the real pot of gold is that if they do well they will get U.S. based media coverage and draw even more international students a potential rich vien of income now and in the future as alums.

Yet with all of that you claim, they will still be seen as a D2 school, which isn't going to be drawing the kind of student athlete that current goes to D1 schools.

quote:Originally posted by Trillium

Any thinking Canadian University President will be talking to U.S. univerisity presidents and getting handle on this, and then test the waters with the University Senates... NCAA memberships are going to increase, and that in my opinion is a good thing for the Canadian Sport System.

The thinking presidents know that there isn't really any benefit of joining NCAA. That's the reality.

[Vic]

http://tinyurl.com/yaegfy7

A good sign.

[Kayto]

Of Scots ancestry Simon Fraser was born on a farm in either what is now Vermont or N.H. His father was a farmer and reluctant loyalist killed by the Americans in the revolutionary wars. His mother escaped (walked) to Montreal with Simon and his siblings. At 16 Simon joined the North West Company competing with the Hudson Bay Company to find (by canoe and with considerable help from First Nations peoples) a trade route to China which led to his "discovery" of the Fraser River. He was one of our earliest greatest Canadians and it is sad the University that bears his name is not inclined to participate (it seems never has been inclined to participate) in an aspect (student athleticism in Canada for Canadians) of the continued growth and improvement of a country we love. I recognize there are a host of issues here but it seems to me that SFU deserves, at least on this forum, some of the OH treatment.