De Guzman done at Depor?

[villus]

La Liga is much better for developing players ainec across all clubs. That's really all that matters IMO, the style of game in spain is much more condusive to putting pressure on players to develop technically and being all round players.

[tmcmurph]

quote:Originally posted by dbailey62

^^^^^^^^^^^^ You've got way too much time on your hands Jeffrey!

Too funny. You beat me to it. Way too much time on his hands

Now can we get a comparisson of Bundesliga and Serie A? I'm just trying to be a troublemaker as usual [}]

[canucklefan]

quote:Originally posted by villus

La Liga is much better for developing players ainec across all clubs. That's really all that matters IMO, the style of game in spain is much more condusive to putting pressure on players to develop technically and being all round players.

Well, style is a the word I eas avoiding in my post because for me, it's not a factor to determine which league is better. A goal with a head has the same value than a goal with your left or right foot.

As for developing players, for me that's not a fact either because a developing player it's not at his best yet and we are talking about who/what is best. But I agree that La Liga develops more players than EPL.

[Jimmy]

quote:Originally posted by canucklefan

Jeffrey S., I think you brought some interesting points about which league is better, but for me there is an important fact that makes me think the EPL is better than La Liga and it's the difference between the big clubs with the rest. I believe the difference is lesser in the EPL, therefore EPL is better.

What are you basing that claim on? I gotta disagree with U there. I think the difference is lesser in La Liga. Almost any team is capable of beating the others and also getting beat. Some examples being, unbeatable Barca's(1st place) only loss has been to Numancia, who now sit in 17th place. Barca also drew 1-1 with Racing, who are 14th. Liga new boys Sporting Gijon(10th) and Valladolid(7th) have done quite well for themselves. Vallodid lost 6-0 to Barca, but then they beat Real Madrid 1-0, Sevilla 3-2(5th), and last nite they beat Villareal 3-0(3rd). Sporting Gijon also have been climbing steadily after huge back to back early losses of 6-1 and 7-1 to Barca and Madrid respectively. But, they also managed to beat Valencia 3-2 last weekend. They also went to Depor(7th place) a few weeks ago and beat em 3-0 convincingly.

The biggest surprises of the season though have been the Copa Del Rey results. Villareal was eliminated over two legs by a third division team on an aggregate score of 6-1 or something like that. Madrid was also eliminated by a third div team losing on away goals.

There are three little groups in la Liga. The top five teams are separated by just 3 points. Most of the league is in the next cluster with again just a few points separating seventh from fourteenth, then the relegation candidates are also very tight separated by just a few points.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

Thanks guys, I know I have got too much time on my hands, but since I was fuming about being a muppet for most of Saturday morning I had to do something. So while South Melbourne Red was glued to EPL all afternoon I took the time to do the research.

And I am not finished yet.

Comparing leagues can be done in many ways, but my "rival" brought up some criteria that are okay and other that doubtful at least. Lets start with what teams are better:

-I think it is okay to use the top teams in Champions as an argument. England has had four competitive teams over the last 5 years or so. Spain has had two maybe three, but less. Spain only has two powerhouses and perhaps England has four, at least recently. Italy as is now has the two Milan teams and la Juve. More strength at the top in England these last years.

Mid-table changes things. In Spain it is more competitive as the spread between winner and last UEFA spot is smaller, the spread between making UEFA and being relegated is also narrower. Even results head to head between Champions League level teams and relegating teams prove a more competitive league. Spain has had two UEFA winners in Sevilla in the last few years as well as one all Spain UEFA final. Both Sevilla and Espanyol have less budget than say Newcastle, but the competitive level of mid-table Spain is higher than equivalent England.

That suggests that if you are a top level player, a star, England could be a good option if you are on a top side, as you'll get tough European play and your teammates will be good, but the rivals may not be as tough in the league outside of the good teams. But for a regular top flight guy (like De Guzmán), you are going to be more challenged generally week in week out in Spain as all teams are going to challenge you, you may not be able to handle the highest level in Europe, but you may find you are competitive in UEFA Cup.

This will change as money moves into traditionally weaker teams in England, which seems to be happening as foreign investors choose England clubs as vehicles for their ambitions. It will also happen if coaching becomes more international, if players are not forced to playing strictly traditional English style, as the play becomes effectively more adapted to dominant world currents. Meaning if midtable England improves, maybe the top four will no longer be powerhouses and will fail more. They may not make Champions so automatically or easily,, have dry spells, there may be less chance of three semi-finalists in Champions, but the level overall will be better, not worse, for an EPL player. Their teams may win the UEFA Cup again. And England top flight will be better, approaching the level and model of Spain.

[superbrad]

Which league makes the most money? I'm sure it must be the EPL however I'm curious.

[canucklefan]

quote:Originally posted by Jimmy

What are you basing that claim on? I gotta disagree with U there. I think the difference is lesser in La Liga. Almost any team is capable of beating the others and also getting beat. Some examples being, unbeatable Barca's(1st place) only loss has been to Numancia, who now sit in 17th place. Barca also drew 1-1 with Racing, who are 14th. Liga new boys Sporting Gijon(10th) and Valladolid(7th) have done quite well for themselves. Vallodid lost 6-0 to Barca, but then they beat Real Madrid 1-0, Sevilla 3-2(5th), and last nite they beat Villareal 3-0(3rd). Sporting Gijon also have been climbing steadily after huge back to back early losses of 6-1 and 7-1 to Barca and Madrid respectively. But, they also managed to beat Valencia 3-2 last weekend. They also went to Depor(7th place) a few weeks ago and beat em 3-0 convincingly.

The biggest surprises of the season though have been the Copa Del Rey results. Villareal was eliminated over two legs by a third division team on an aggregate score of 6-1 or something like that. Madrid was also eliminated by a third div team losing on away goals.

There are three little groups in la Liga. The top five teams are separated by just 3 points. Most of the league is in the next cluster with again just a few points separating seventh from fourteenth, then the relegation candidates are also very tight separated by just a few points.

I'm not talking about just the points, if you analyse this from the points there's almost no difference between the two, think about the way the big clubs win, I agree with you that Numancia did beat Barça, at the same time I think there was a lack adjustments in the team (new coach, Ronaldinho's gone, etc). Now everything is in place and how many times did we see Barça score 4 goals? 5 goals? Real Madrid too, but not that much as Barça, I agree.

When you look at the EPL, you can say Chelsea won some games by a score of 5, nevertheless not that much as Barça (by the way I can argue too that Tottenham who was last drew Chelsea too).

There is Liverpool too, they are first with Barça, but this year, how many times they were losing the game, then they tie and finaly score the goal of victory? Often, the goal came between 85' and 90', that includes injury time of course.

[kcisoul]

sooo.... DGM wearing BMO on the fron of his jersey, that would look good. haha.

[SCF08]

Jeffrey ,

Is Julian fit for an ass-kicking on Thursday ??

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by SCF08

Jeffrey ,

Is Julian fit for an ass-kicking on Thursday ??

I heard Jonathan is injured, is that true? Meaning neither might be ready for the rather attractive UEFA game, brother vs. brother.

Latest bro vs. bro match I recall was the Militos, Gaby at Barça vs. Diego at Zaragoza.

[SCF08]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

I heard Jonathan is injured, is that true? Meaning neither might be ready for the rather attractive UEFA game, brother vs. brother.

Latest bro vs. bro match I recall was the Militos, Gaby at Barça vs. Diego at Zaragoza.

Jono is in training though. He wasnt in the squad today but might be on the bench soon.

Is Julian 100% absent ?

[Guest Jeffery S.]

This is really news, from the press yesterday: Julian regrets polemic about his renewal, and questions the article published in a "Canadian newspaper":

http://www.marca.com/edicion/marca/futbol/1a_division/deportivo/es/desarrollo/1186370.html

First, just have to comment that the remarks in Marca from fans are glowing, the Depor fans love his committment to the team, his work rate, and most seem to want him to stay with the side.

As for the article, he says he regrets the article in a Canadian paper, says the figure was not correct (referring to what he was owed), that his intention was to renew with the team even though his contract is up in June and he could negotiate with another side starting January.

The club promises it will pay him what he is owed, so he says he has been told, and that they are going to speak to the club soon through his agent.

Julian insists he wants to stay at Depor in spite of "other teams" out there, and that he has told the club this clearly, and his agent. "There are teams, but it doesn't matter. I want Depor."

Also that his injury is healing, he should be back training tomorrow Monday but Thursday is early to be back on the pitch, will probably be "the next league game" he says.

[SCF08]

What a lucky man he is.

I bet Jono has told him some stories about our superkid Georginio Wijnaldum.

Julian is just scared..

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by SCF08

What a lucky man he is.

I bet Jono has told him some stories about our superkid Georginio Wijnaldum.

Julian is just scared..

Depor is on form, have to say, so should be a tough rival. They are, in my opinion, about a month or 6 weeks from really hitting their stride, then we'll see whether they can do something this year in league, Copa del Rey and UEFA.

[SCF08]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

Depor is on form,

Were not this season. We did well in the last 4 games getting 10 points though. They are probably gonna kick our asses bad...[:I]

We are playing with like 5 teenagers at the moment and 2 players who havent played in our first team for 1,5 years because they were written off. We have loads and loads of injuries.....our centre back even got injured while walking the dog []

Georginio Wijnaldum is going to be a truly legendary footballer so if your going to watch the game check him out , and the return of Roy Makaay offcourse in La Coruna

[Jimmy]

quote:Originally posted by SCF08

Jeffrey ,

Is Julian fit for an ass-kicking on Thursday ??

Julian will most likely miss the Feyenoord match. I think next weekend's Liga match might be his return. It would have been interesting to see the De Guzman boys go at it. I am not sure about this, but almost certain that it would have been the first time 2 Canadian brothers face off in Europe. At least UEFA cup anyway.

[Jimmy]

quote:Originally posted by canucklefan

I'm not talking about just the points, if you analyse this from the points there's almost no difference between the two, think about the way the big clubs win, I agree with you that Numancia did beat Barça, at the same time I think there was a lack adjustments in the team (new coach, Ronaldinho's gone, etc). Now everything is in place and how many times did we see Barça score 4 goals? 5 goals? Real Madrid too, but not that much as Barça, I agree.

When you look at the EPL, you can say Chelsea won some games by a score of 5, nevertheless not that much as Barça (by the way I can argue too that Tottenham who was last drew Chelsea too).

There is Liverpool too, they are first with Barça, but this year, how many times they were losing the game, then they tie and finaly score the goal of victory? Often, the goal came between 85' and 90', that includes injury time of course.

Real Madrid were lucky to beat Recre just 1-0 at home. Recre are currently the last place team with just 7 points after 12 matches. As for Barca, their free scoring streak appears to be over for now. Last nite all they could manage was a home 1-1 draw against 14th place Getafe. The 2 previous matches were a 2-0 win at Recre and a 1-0 win vs third div team Benidorm in the King's Cup. In any case both leagues have their merits, but overall I still think it's tougher to predict who will win matches in La Liga.

[SthMelbRed]

The stats for Euro 2008 obviously favour Spain, since Spain won the tournament. As for the World Player of the year awards and Ballon d'Or, all of those players that won them play(ed) for Barca or Real Madrid. The fact that both clubs have been soundly beaten by English clubs every time they've met over the past five years, barring 2006 when Barcelona were easily the best side in the world, leads me to think that having the single best player in the world doesn't make the best team or the best league. If you want to look past the top teams in England, Athletico Madrid was good enough to qualify for the Champions' League last season, but were eliminated from the UEFA Cup by a Bolton side that was fighting relegation all season and held some of its players back because they needed to keep them fresh for the league.

For a very long time, those that favour the Italian or Spanish leagues would point to the relative failures of English league stars like Ian Rush or Paul Gascoigne to make any impact when they transferred to the continent and say that the English league was rubbish. You don't hear those same people rushing to point to the complete failures of players like Shevchenko, Veron, or Morientes to succeed in England as a sign that the Spanish league or Italian league are not up to standard. Collocini, a dominating defender in Spain last season at at top half club, is weekly made to look a fool in England by players from clubs nowhere near the elite. How is it that the legions of great players populating each club in La Liga couldn't make him look bad, but the unskillful and tactically naive players in the Premier League relegation zone can? How is it that players like Diego Forlan or Fredric Kanoute couldn't hit the net in England but were instantly stars in Spain? Maybe the top teams in Spain lose to bottom half sides more often because they just aren't as good as the top teams in England.

There is no disputing the fact that the Spanish league was stronger ten years ago. The Premier league had the best British players and most of the best Scandinavian players. It was starting to get some continental stars, but they were usually towards the end of their careers and just after one last big contract. At that time, most of the top players from other European countries were still playing in their domestic competitions. What made the Spanish league the best was that it also had the best South American players. For reasons of culture and climate, it was the prime destination for Brazilian and Argentinians stars. That is no longer true. The top English clubs are more and more signing top South American players and at much younger ages. They are also getting the best young Eastern Europeans. The money on offer in England is making every top player a realistic target for English clubs. The Premier League is, at worst, the equal to La Liga right now. And the momentum is definitely not in favour of Spain.

And you need to brush up on your reading comprehension and your geography. I've already made it clear to you that I watch any top level football that I can get on TV, whether it's English, Spanish, Italian, Champions' League, or international. And I don't spend my weekend afternoons watching the Premiership. In this part of the world we stay up into the middle of the night to watch live football. I have no problem with the Spanish League and enjoy watching it. Unlike you, though, I can enjoy different leagues and different footballing styles without looking down my nose at the ones that are not my favourite. You can keep holding yourself up as some kind of football connoisseur, more discriminating and refined in the way you enjoy watching the game, but it doesn't make you in any way different from any of the rest of us, just more pompous.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

Hey SthMelbRed, if you are going to argue totally dishonestly then let's forget it. I think I offered pretty strong evidence that the best players have been in Spain in the last 10 years, and you come up with this bullcrap about them playing for the top teams, as if that were somehow irrelevant.

I mean, according to you, what the top teams do in Champions is relevant but what the top players do on those teams is not. Sorry, you can't have it both ways. Even in the last five years Spanish clubs have had more FIFA world players and more Golden Ball awards. Better players in Spain. Admit it.

But why am I even arguing with a guy who wants to rule out the entire Eurocup because Spain won it, and suggest we should not refer to Spanish players in Spain because of it. I mean, what if I argued, following the exact phrase you used, that "The stats for Champions obviously favour England, since an English team won the tournament", you'd laugh at me, I would be ridiculed off the board. And rightly so. But you said "The stats for Euro 2008 obviously favour Spain, since Spain won the tournament." And you are still here.

I don't know why I am even arguing about who has the best players and which is the better league with a guy who ignores, get this:

-the top Argentine striker beside Messi (Kun Agüero)

-the player voted best in Libertadores (equivalent to the Champions League in the Americas), Guerrón, at Getafe (never heard of him have you?)

-does not mention the leading scorer for a shoddy national team called Brazil which he obviously does not rate very highly (Luis Fabiano, I doubt if you sat beside him in the dentist's waiting room you'd even recognize him, braces and all)

-ignores a player who has scored more in 2008 than C. Ronaldo (Eto'o, who did not even make your first list, though Drogba, who is a step behind him and always has been, did make it)

-did not even put Villa, top scorer at the Eurocup even injured last game, on his list of top players in the world, when the guy's strike rate for Spain is double that of Torres'. The vast majority of Spanish fans rate Villa higher than Torres, though of course are happy to have the latter.

-does not mention the leading players of the leading national team in Europe, like Iniesta, but mentions his sub for Spain, Cesc. I mean, Iniesta is better than any player in England as an attacking mid, only Gerrard is of his level though they are quite different of course. Iniesta is one of the top dozen pure football talents in the world. He is the main reason Ronaldinho is no longer with Barça.

BTW, have you noticed that all the top Spaniards in England are subs for the Spanish national team, or can't even make it, except Torres? Reina behind Casillas, Arbeloa too, Xabi Alonso behind Senna, Cesc behind Xavi and Iniesta, and then Torres, whose production is inferior to Villa's. Arteta, rated one of the top mids in EPL the last few years, not even on the national team. Munua, keeper for one of your big four, never called up (but folks talk about him playing for England!).

You are being fundamentally dishonest man.

Let's end with the easy example you have insisted on twice, you keep harping away on: Coloccini.

Easy one, thanks for that: Robinho. 'Nuf said.

I mean why is one an example of how difficult England is and the other is not even mentioned on your list? All we are asking is for you to argue coherently. If Coloccini is a good case in favour of how tough England is in comparison to Spain, why isn't Robinho a good one against your theory, about how easy England is for anyone coming from Spain?

But the example is even worsely chosen that you could imagine, wait for it. You argue that since Coloccini was the one of the top defenders in Spain and he is not doing well in his first 13 games in England this is a definitive example that proves your argument. First, your premise is mistaken: he was not amongst the best defenders in Spain. Ever. He has always been average and never has been rated top. He failed at Milan in 2000 and was loaned back to Argentina. He played a year for Alavés of all things. He played a year for a poor At. Madrid, one in Villareal, failed in Milan again, was signed by Depor, he transferred down to them. If Newcastle press department has convinced you that this is a leading defender in Spain they must be very good at their job.

But just to show how idiotic you are being, Coloccini did not even play central defender for Depor a lot of the time (the hilarious thing is that he played holding mid, often displacing de Guzman, who moved to mid right). Meaning he was never amongst the top half of central defender pairings in Spain, and was never rated as such, partially because he was not always a central defender even. Compare that to Robinho, who is being played exactly where he played for Real Madrid by Man City. And get real man.

Anyways, if Newcastle signed him to play a certain way and can't get results from him, that is their problem. You pick a guy who has spent 4 months in a completely different culture on a team doing terribly, and he somehow he gets the blame, the new guy takes the rap, how hospitable. If that makes you upset, if you are a secret Magpie, or colour blind, then don't blame him, blame the coach and his teammates and the management. Their deficient style and their playing him wrongly.

Not only that: you deny him the chance to adjust to a new football culture. I mean, you can't put Tevez on your list of top players that prove England has the best, forgetting that Tevez needed his year and a bit to adjust, and then deny another player the same time Tevez had and use that as your argument. You can't have it both ways.

Finally, if you want to go on about what league is tougher to adapt to, all I will say is that now that EPL is more international and its coaching is more globally oriented, its fans have shifted over to another way of appreciating the game, it is in fact easier to adapt to EPL for the quality players. Before no talented Brazilian like Bebeto or Rivaldo or Ronaldo (Nazario de Lima) or Ronaldinho in his right mind would have even dreamt of going to England, because they feared being hacked to death, not having anyone able to control their passes, not having anyone to pass to them properly, and having to run like an idiot to prove they had pace around teammates incapable of thinking on their feet.

No one went, not because they did not have offers, but because they did not want to play that style, it would have debased them. Now they go and succeed from the technical footballing nations of the world, and in droves, meaning EPL is easier to adjust to for the real talents now than previously. Which does not mean it is an easier league. So I think you are totally off base to even try this argument.

[ubuntu]

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by ubuntu

You researched smileys, congratulations. Where did you find them?

We are having fun (supposedly). No one thinks we are on this board for technical-financial reasons, do they?

[SCF08]

It has just been confirmed that Jonathan is going to travel along with the squad towards A Coruna. He's not very likely to participate as the Feyenoord manager said.

''He's coming with us since it is a special occasion for him , he will take part in the final group training session but he's not ready for competitive minutes''

Probably be the 2 brothers sitting next to eachother in the stand. Real shame because it would have been a great duel..

[SthMelbRed]

How is it dishonest to point out the obvious flaws in your argument? Your basic premise is that the Spanish league is better than the English league because the mid- and lower-table clubs are better, with better players. You back this up by reeling off a bunch of individual awards won exclusively by players at the two biggest Spanish clubs. Since we can all concede that Barca and Real Madrid are not currently up to the standard of the English Big Four (or at least haven't been over the past five seasons) since they've been consistently knocked out of the Champions' League in recent seasons, how can that bolster your argument that there is better quality throughout the Spanish top division?

Nowhere did I purport to provide an exhaustive list of the top players in the world. All I did was make the obvious point that of the pool of players who could be called the truly elite in the world, Spain has no monopoly. How do you manage to turn that into me slighting Villa or Eto'o, two great players that I enjoy watching? You can also bring up players such as Guerron (you're right, I know next to nothing about him) who was picked the best player in the Libertadores (only you'd be so arrogant to assume that others don't know what it is). I could counter with Lucas Leiva, who was voted the best player in Brazil the year before he joined Liverpool at the ripe old age of nineteen (tell me, which league was this Guerron chap playing in that year?) We could go on forever.

The only way such an argument can definitively be settled would be for there to be a 40-team league consisting of the top-20 from each league playing a 78-game season. Since that is never going to happen, we are left with a whole lot of subjective criteria on which to base our opinions. I've made mine, and you've made yours. Personally, I think yours is based on one-eyed, outdated, Eurosnob stereotypes of the English game which have little relevence in the present. You are entitled to them, though. As it's clear that no resolution is going to come from this debate, I will leave it now. Feel free to get the last word in, if you must.

[Duane Rollins1555362254]

Oh for...

This debate is as old as mud. You aren't going to change each other's minds. So, let's talk about De Guzmán.

1) - I don't think a 27-year old has a lot of development left. So, arguments about what league he will learn more in are a bit pointless. De Guzmán should be worried about going somewhere that he can be emotionally happy in and make a boatload of money. He's happy where he's at. It's the money that is the question.

2) - I'm as big a TFC guy as anyone, but I'm not sure De Guzmán would be a good fit as a DP (to say nothing of the fact that he probably wouldn't consider the move anyway). Carl Robinson already fills the holding role for Toronto and many suggest that, in a salary cap league, he's overpaid for the position. Unless you think De Guzmán is going to suddenly start popping goals at a monster rate the same critiques would surface about him if he were to come to T.O. He does have the right passport, however.

3) - The main reason to hope for a transfer to England is because he would gain much greater exposure here in Canada by doing so. That would help in the continuing struggle to get Canadians to care about Canadian soccer players.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

Since this is where Deportivo economy has been discussed, they just had their AGM today and they are reporting for 2009 a projected deficit of almost 160 million euros, up 3% from last year, while the overall budget has fallen slightly to just under 60 million euros.

The club's problem is an excessivly large squad, few transfers out, and wages that are meant to ensure continuity of players to build a successful team.

Julian not playing last game is not a good sign, though they have gotten results with him injured and are probably going for the side that has done the job. I think he'll renew with them, but it will probably be an open discussion in the press over the next few months. Fortunately they have a lot of matches in the next couple months, including Copa del Rey.

Depor's next match is league at Getafe on Jan 4th (they come to Camp Nou on the 18th!), while they play round of 16 in the Cup the midweek after, on the 7th, away to Sevilla, 2nd leg at home a few weeks after. If they go through they face the winner of Valencia-Santander in quarter finals.