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Umm.. What special new skills is Julian supposed to learn at this point?

He's learned his craft, he is what he is, if anything his offensive flair has been horribly suppressed at Depor. When's the last time the guy has scored a freakin league goal?

He can win balls in the mid-field, I understand that, now I'd like to see him pop some goals, and that ain't gonna happen in Spain. It's gonna happen in England. Nuff said.

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Guest Jeffery S.
quote:Originally posted by SouthAfricaOrBust

Umm.. What special new skills is Julian supposed to learn at this point?

He's learned his craft, he is what he is, if anything his offensive flair has been horribly suppressed at Depor. When's the last time the guy has scored a freakin league goal?

He can win balls in the mid-field, I understand that, now I'd like to see him pop some goals, and that ain't gonna happen in Spain. It's gonna happen in England. Nuff said.

Julian is actually mocked by fans, who love him otherwise, for always shooting over the top of the net. He has actually looked better for Canada than Depor in that regard.

I still think he can improve, he has done well, but if Depor stay up in the fight for a UEFA spot the demands will stay high as well and they'll all have to step up. They are still alive in UEFA Cup as well, and in the Copa del Rey. If they offload players at Xmas to reduce the salary load and rely a bit on their B team, which is doing okay, then they might begin to solve money problems.

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Guest Jeffery S.
quote:Originally posted by SouthAfricaOrBust

What is the ownership situation Jeffrey? One guy? A group?

This is Spain. Almost all the enterprise is held by small shareholders, many with just a few shares. There were rumours about someone buying a bigger block, but not controlling interest, not sure if it went through.

A campaign to sell shares to fans has not been as successful as they had wished, the support just is not there, nor the money willing to pay for sport, especially in the region of Galicia.

This is with a club with a budget of something like 60 million euros, or more.

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Shouldn't the quality of the team matter more than the quality of the league? I would rather see him play with Depor than somewhere like Stoke or West Brom.

A team with a shot to be in Champions League would be ideal, which obviously favours Arsenal or Man City over Newcastle or Bolton. Having said that, I think if he leaves Depor I could see him going to the same league as his brother, which means EPL is most likely.

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quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

This is Spain. Almost all the enterprise is held by small shareholders, many with just a few shares. There were rumours about someone buying a bigger block, but not controlling interest, not sure if it went through.

A campaign to sell shares to fans has not been as successful as they had wished, the support just is not there, nor the money willing to pay for sport, especially in the region of Galicia.

This is with a club with a budget of something like 60 million euros, or more.

Well, am not sure there budget is as high as you suggest. Last seasons bright spots apart from Julian were Xisco, Wilhelmsson and Lafita. Xisco came up through the team's youth system and after an impressive season(9 or 10 liga goals about), he was duly sold to Newcastle. Wilhelmsson did very well on loan at Depor, but he wasn't signed permanently and now is in Saudi Arabia. Lafita, on loan from Zaragoza last season was signed permanently. Last season Depor continued with their selling, following the sale of world class defender Andrade, they also sold another world class defender in Coloccini. This season the best signing has been keeper Aranzubia. Mexican striker OMar Bravo not quite firing them in yet, and another signing(free transfer??) Mista isn't exactly in his prime. Anyway, am not quite sure how much the new guys were signed for, but am sure they weren't HUGE fees. Another HUGE problem is that Depor have no sponsor at the moment. You may have noticed that Fadesa is no longer on their jerseys. All that considered, Seventh place in the best league in the world(in my opinion) is pretty good. As for his goal scoring, Julian isn't afforded many chances to get forward. I never really hear many mention much about Makelele's and Mauro Silva's goal scoring expoits either. Of course they are much more accomplished players, but point is that Julian's role at Depor is similar to theirs. He has done a great job filling the shoes of Mauro Silva.

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quote:Originally posted by SouthAfricaOrBust

Umm.. What special new skills is Julian supposed to learn at this point?

He's learned his craft, he is what he is, if anything his offensive flair has been horribly suppressed at Depor. When's the last time the guy has scored a freakin league goal?

He can win balls in the mid-field, I understand that, now I'd like to see him pop some goals, and that ain't gonna happen in Spain. It's gonna happen in England. Nuff said.

That's why I want him to play elsewhere, he is a great player so he can find, and he deserves, a greater club, he has more than enough talent to score goals and while he does a great job in Depor as a defensive midfield, I would like to see him with a team willing to give him an offensive role.

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quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

This is Spain. Almost all the enterprise is held by small shareholders, many with just a few shares. There were rumours about someone buying a bigger block, but not controlling interest, not sure if it went through.

A campaign to sell shares to fans has not been as successful as they had wished, the support just is not there, nor the money willing to pay for sport, especially in the region of Galicia.

This is with a club with a budget of something like 60 million euros, or more.

Whoah! I don't think so. Not unless Depor's budget includes real estate and other outside-of-football ventures (which it may well).

The two English clubs The Guz has been linked with, 'boro & Bolton I'd guess are on budgets of 40 million pounds (which would be a bit shy of 50 million Euros). Doubt Depor has the same means as any but the smallest EPL club, for no other reason besides TV revenue and that's without even considering the revenue generated by the relatively expensive gate prices in the EPL.

Anyway, money is just a distraction. I feel England, under reasonable circumstances, might be a very good fit for The Guz. I've always felt he was firstly a crafty ball winner, a real little terrier. As much emotional,instinctive and athletic as cerebral with a bold sort of offensive penchant which was more reactionary than chess-mind creative. If I'm right about that England may be a perfect fit for him.

By that I mean he's athletic, has reasonable pace and he'll be perfectly comfortable working within the usual EPL defensive systems. When it comes to the forward looking part of his game he's well suited to judo off the high pressure defensive tactics he'll encounter. The question mark being whether his team mates have the where with all to take the best advantage of his ball winning opportunities to counter.

Maybe, also on the negative side is that I think he's the sort of player who needs more of the ball to shine. He needs to touch and handle the ball before he can really find his groove. (Not sure I'm expressing that correctly).

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Guest Jeffery S.

To Cheet and Jimmy who thought my budget for Depor wasn't right, you are correct. It is higher than I said, my figure was a low guess.

Here are the budgets for the 2006-07 season for La Liga, followed by how they ended up in the league. Depor's has not dropped any more than 10% since then:

Presupuestos de equipos de primera ordenados de más a menos y su clasificación en la liga 2006 - 2007

Barcelona. 315 millones de euros. (2)

Real Madrid. 306 millones de euros. (1)

Atlético de Madrid. 156 Millones de euros. (7)

Valencia. 125 millones de euros. (4)

Sevilla. 100 millones de euros. (3)

Deportivo de la Coruña. 92 Millones de euros. (13)

Villareal. 63 millones de euros (aprobado finales de 2007). 56 Millones de euros. (5)

Betis. 53 Millones de euros. (16)

Athletic Club de Bilbao. 52 Millones de euros. (17)

Real Zaragoza. 42 Millones de euros. (6)

Espanyol. 38 Millones de euros. (11)

Getafe. 36 Millones de euros. (9)

Levante. 36 Millones de euros. (15)

Racing de Santander. 27 millones de euros. (10)

Murcia. 27 Millones de euros. (20 - Ascendido desde la liga BBVA)

Almería. 25 Millones de euros. (19 - Ascendido desde la liga BBVA)

Mallorca. 23 Millones de euros. (12)

Osasuna. 23 Millones de euros. (14)

Valladolid. 18 Millones de euros. (18 - Ascendido desde la liga BBVA)

Recreativo de Huelva. 10 Millones de euros. (8)

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quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

To Cheet and Jimmy who thought my budget for Depor wasn't right, you are correct. It is higher than I said, my figure was a low guess.

Here are the budgets for the 2006-07 season for La Liga, followed by how they ended up in the league. Depor's has not dropped any more than 10% since then:

Presupuestos de equipos de primera ordenados de más a menos y su clasificación en la liga 2006 - 2007

Barcelona. 315 millones de euros. (2)

Real Madrid. 306 millones de euros. (1)

Atlético de Madrid. 156 Millones de euros. (7)

Valencia. 125 millones de euros. (4)

Sevilla. 100 millones de euros. (3)

Deportivo de la Coruña. 92 Millones de euros. (13)

Villareal. 63 millones de euros (aprobado finales de 2007). 56 Millones de euros. (5)

Betis. 53 Millones de euros. (16)

Athletic Club de Bilbao. 52 Millones de euros. (17)

Real Zaragoza. 42 Millones de euros. (6)

Espanyol. 38 Millones de euros. (11)

Getafe. 36 Millones de euros. (9)

Levante. 36 Millones de euros. (15)

Racing de Santander. 27 millones de euros. (10)

Murcia. 27 Millones de euros. (20 - Ascendido desde la liga BBVA)

Almería. 25 Millones de euros. (19 - Ascendido desde la liga BBVA)

Mallorca. 23 Millones de euros. (12)

Osasuna. 23 Millones de euros. (14)

Valladolid. 18 Millones de euros. (18 - Ascendido desde la liga BBVA)

Recreativo de Huelva. 10 Millones de euros. (8)

Dollar for Dollar, Villareal is probably one of the best clubs in the world right now.

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quote:Originally posted by VPjr

Dollar for Dollar, Villareal is probably one of the best clubs in the world right now.

Cheers for the find Jeffrey. We stand corrected. I wonder how much the loss of a sponsor may have affected the situation. Also the fact that Depor has become such a selling team must indicate something.

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Got me curious. There is no way I can figure out how Depor turned over 92M euros without loads of Champions League money. Unless those numbers include non-football operations. And even still, that would have to be a HELL of business.

Think Celtic did a turn over of around 75M pound in '07 (wee bit higher than usual). Course La Liga TV money has got to be way better than SPL. Way, way, better but I also don't think Depor are on a 15M pound sponsorship deal with anyone so that might balance those out.

Which leaves gate revenue, prize money, transfer fees, and other asset sales. Can't imagine how Depor would trump Celtic in most of those four.

Would love to see how they came up with those numbers. That's impressive.

Know we're drifting wildly off topic here but you mentioned a public share offering. Any idea what sort of revenue was generated by that, Jeffrey?

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This may sound like ignorant questions, but what do they mean when they say budget? Are they talking about planned expenditures in a given year? Or are they referring to expected revenues or previous year revenues?

I ask those questions because the answers would suggest far different conclusions. Nevertheless, at the end of the day, it's not about the amount of money you rake in but the amount that's left after you pay your bills. Just ask GM and Ford.

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Guest Jeffery S.

I have no idea where they get their money either, I find it odd. Their fan base is relatively small, there is no sponsor on the shirt, they get their tv money and that may be strong as they are the only Galician team and in Spain the regional televisions bid for rights together for the Saturday night game (though it has all gotten muddled this year). Their merchandizing may be okay, but just that. They may have invested well in during their Champions years, they have gotten decent transfer money for players over the past five years.

Though looking overall I would say that it is about right to see them there in that spot, maybe would have thought Betis and Bilbao would be better than them, and think that Villareal, with a smaller fan base but a powerful owner, is about right where they are.

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quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

I have no idea where they get their money either, I find it odd. Their fan base is relatively small, there is no sponsor on the shirt, they get their tv money and that may be strong as they are the only Galician team and in Spain the regional televisions bid for rights together for the Saturday night game (though it has all gotten muddled this year). Their merchandizing may be okay, but just that. They may have invested well in during their Champions years, they have gotten decent transfer money for players over the past five years.

Though looking overall I would say that it is about right to see them there in that spot, maybe would have thought Betis and Bilbao would be better than them, and think that Villareal, with a smaller fan base but a powerful owner, is about right where they are.

I assume when you say they are the only Galicican team you are referring just to the first division. Their bitter rivals Celta de Vigo were up there with them a few years ago, but are now in the second division. In segunda B((third div) there are a few more Galician teams, including Fabril(Depor B). Anyway, looking at the Depor Fan forums, most fans are with Julian and hope that he will re-new. The fact he has frequently said in interviews that he intends to stay plays very well with them. By the way,I checked and his current contract ends in June 2009.

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quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

Glad you don't have a bias. Those biased in favour of the EPL only watch EPL, like you, while I watch both. Weekly. EPL is fun, and i think it is getting better, mostly thanks to foreign coaches and players. But we are talking about clubs, so that is okay.

But anyone who thinks either Real Madrid or Barça would not qualify for Champions if they played one league hasn't a clue, your statement is laughable.

As for analyzing European results, well it fluctuates, and has for the last 20 years I have followed closely. Years ago Valencia and Madrid played a Champions final, when there were three Liga clubs in semis, last year it happened with English clubs. Next year it will be the Italians.

But since Julian won't go to a top club, to one like Boro, just have to look at what Sevilla did to them, making them look like amateurs in the UEFA final, and there is the point made. An average EPL club is rudimentary and lacks tactical intelligence in comparison to any equivalent Liga club. Which is why Julian is better off in Spain, since running around like crazy and tossing the ball generally in the direction of a teammate to be mid-table EPL, well that is the last thing we have to teach Canadians. We need to learn everything else, and I think our kids should avoid England like the plague unless they happen to be true stars in the making.

So, your argument that Spain has a stronger league than England is based on the fact that Spain has the best players, Sevilla beat 'Boro in the UEFA Cup final three years ago, and that Spain had three clubs in the Champions' League final seven years ago?

How do you reckon Spain has the best players? I tune into ESPN's La Liga coverage every week, yet I don't see C Ronaldo, Kaka, Ballack, Fabregas, Gerrard, Buffon, Torres, Ibrahimovic, Carvalho, Deco, or Drogba playing. To which players in Spain are those player inferior? For every Messi or Xavi playing in Spain, there is a Tevez, Nedved, Pirlo, or Berbatov playing in one of the other big, European leagues. Players who have moved from England to Spain in recent years have done very well for themselves. van Nistelrooy, Beckham, Owen, and Robben have been as good or better than they were in England. Yet, outside of the current Liverpool team, how many have transferred the other way and can say the same? Case in point, Julian's former teammate, Colloccini. He was a top defender for years in La Liga. He's been rather embarassing for much of the three months he's been in England.

You cite the example of Sevilla's convincing win over 'Boro as evidence of La Liga's overall superiority over the Premiership? Sevilla is a major club in Spain and was enjoying its golden age at the time. 'Boro has never been a major club in England and had fluked its way into the final of the competition that they only qualified for by virtue of a missed Robbie Fowler penalty in the 90th minute of the last match of the previous season. Their manager was an idiot, to boot. I ask you, how do you honestly think some marginal La Liga sides would fare against the top teams in England? And may I remind you that Bolton, a small club in England, eliminated Athletico Madrid, one of Spain's biggest clubs, in last season's UEFA Cup.

As for the cyclical nature of UEFA competitions, that point has some merit. However, I believe what we are seeing now is not a merely a cyclical blip of English domination in Europe, but a re-establishment of the domination of the sport that occurred in the late-seventies and early-eighties by English clubs fuelled largely by a massive financial advantage over their continental rivals. When Spain had its period of domination in the late-nineties and early-2000s, English clubs were only just starting to find their way again in Europe after the post-Heysel ban.

As for your condescending tone, you can shove that right up your ass, mate. Assuming that, because somebody disagrees with you, they must not know as much as you? How f*cking arrogant can you get. Simpletons like you think that because a player has better technical skills, he is automatically a better player overall. If that were the case, please tell me why Denilson has never been worthy of lacing Steven Gerrard's boots, why Arsenal don't win every match, and why Barcelona has been soundly beaten by English clubs in three of the past four Champions' Leagues? Now piss off, you muppet.

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Guest Jeffery S.
quote:Originally posted by SthMelbRed

So, your argument that Spain has a stronger league than England is based on the fact that Spain has the best players, Sevilla beat 'Boro in the UEFA Cup final three years ago, and that Spain had three clubs in the Champions' League final seven years ago?

How do you reckon Spain has the best players? I tune into ESPN's La Liga coverage every week, yet I don't see C Ronaldo, Kaka, Ballack, Fabregas, Gerrard, Buffon, Torres, Ibrahimovic, Carvalho, Deco, or Drogba playing. To which players in Spain are those player inferior? For every Messi or Xavi playing in Spain, there is a Tevez, Nedved, Pirlo, or Berbatov playing in one of the other big, European leagues. Players who have moved from England to Spain in recent years have done very well for themselves. van Nistelrooy, Beckham, Owen, and Robben have been as good or better than they were in England. Yet, outside of the current Liverpool team, how many have transferred the other way and can say the same? Case in point, Julian's former teammate, Colloccini. He was a top defender for years in La Liga. He's been rather embarassing for much of the three months he's been in England.

You cite the example of Sevilla's convincing win over 'Boro as evidence of La Liga's overall superiority over the Premiership? Sevilla is a major club in Spain and was enjoying its golden age at the time. 'Boro has never been a major club in England and had fluked its way into the final of the competition that they only qualified for by virtue of a missed Robbie Fowler penalty in the 90th minute of the last match of the previous season. Their manager was an idiot, to boot. I ask you, how do you honestly think some marginal La Liga sides would fare against the top teams in England? And may I remind you that Bolton, a small club in England, eliminated Athletico Madrid, one of Spain's biggest clubs, in last season's UEFA Cup.

As for the cyclical nature of UEFA competitions, that point has some merit. However, I believe what we are seeing now is not a merely a cyclical blip of English domination in Europe, but a re-establishment of the domination of the sport that occurred in the late-seventies and early-eighties by English clubs fuelled largely by a massive financial advantage over their continental rivals. When Spain had its period of domination in the late-nineties and early-2000s, English clubs were only just starting to find their way again in Europe after the post-Heysel ban.

As for your condescending tone, you can shove that right up your ass, mate. Assuming that, because somebody disagrees with you, they must not know as much as you? How f*cking arrogant can you get. Simpletons like you think that because a player has better technical skills, he is automatically a better player overall. If that were the case, please tell me why Denilson has never been worthy of lacing Steven Gerrard's boots, why Arsenal don't win every match, and why Barcelona has been soundly beaten by English clubs in three of the past four Champions' Leagues? Now piss off, you muppet.

Glad you are not arrogant or muppet-like, or at least it doesn't show. But you have such a hard-on for England and are so incredibly defensive it is pathetic. The thread is about De Guzman, and if you think he or any Canadian national team player would have developed better in England than in Spain you are wrong. I would argue that any of Radz, DeRo, Atiba, or even Stalteri, would have been or in the case of Atiba would be better off developing in Spain. If Julian had gone to England three years ago he'd be much worse than he is now.

The problem with talking about these guys you use EPL as a masturbation tool is that if you even mention quality players in another league they won't know what you are talking about. If you talk about Marco Senna or De la Red or Sergio Garcia, they'll stare at you blankly through their self-imposed haze, because they can't even recognize the names of players who won the European championship, never mind say anything intelligent about them.

But I don't really mind, because my point is not to slag EPL, which I watch and enjoy and think is of great quality. My point is to say there is no way you are going to develop a player for Canada better in England than in Spain in maybe 80% of the cases, as Canadians have pace and work rate, and all know how to run like crazy and make loosely defined passes, they are experts at not reading the stages of a match correctly, and most know how to make boot tackles when they can't take the ball cleanly off a rival. Canada needs something else, which is why I would love to see more Canadians in Spain or Italy and less reliance by our agents on their English connections.

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The start of this was you making the statement that La Liga is the best league in the world because it has the best players. The fact is that you're out to lunch with that statement. If you want to argue that Spain is a better development league, that's a different issue, which I'm more than happy to concede is a fair point. However, your bias towards the Spanish league and repeated belittling of English football leads you to make rash statements which are patently not true. If they were, you'd actually try to address the arguments I made to refute your claim rather than trying to deflect attention by naming players you assume that I've not heard of, but whom I've seen play many times (you also make the assumption that I don't watch any La Liga matches, when the fact is after twenty years of never getting to see quality football on Canadian TV, I now take the opportunity to watch any top-class football that is available to me).

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Guest Jeffery S.

Since I am a muppet and other things which I don't understand unless I use a dictionary for saying La Liga is the best league, and it has the best players, I thought I'd waste my evening looking at a few objective stats and musing over a few totally subjective criteria as a way of defending my argument. For what it is worth. And as a way of saying that Julian is better in one league and would be worse off in another, if pure overall quality is the consideration.

Golden Ball, last ten years

6 winners in Spanish clubs (or partially, considering mid-year transfers)

1 in English club (Owen)

Golden Ball, last ten years, runners up and third place

7 in Spain

6 in clubs in England

Eurocup 2008 goal scorers

Players with more than a goal playing in England before Eurocup

One

In Spain

3

Players with more than one goal Eurocup in English club after

Two (add Pavyluchenko)

In Spain

2

Leading scorer Eurocup club

Villa, Valencia, Spain

Best player Eurocup 2008

Xavi (Barcelona)

Best player last World Cup`2006

Cannavaro (Real Madrid)

Previous best player for Eurocup 2004 and WC 2002, and for previous versions, not in Spain or England

Leading scorers (four with 4 goals) in WC 2010 qualifying Conmebol In England

Zero

In Spain

2 (Forlan and Luis Fabiano)

FIFA World Player winners, last ten years (voted by players/coaches)

Spanish club 7

English club 0

Last five years

Spain 5

England 0

FIFA World Player second and third place, last ten years

Spanish club 10

English club 6

Golden Shoe winners, last 10 years

In English club 4

In Spanish club 2

Fifa World Player candidates 2008 (total 28) by club league

England 10 (including Deco)

Spain 9 (including Deco)

English league players vs. Spanish league head to head (subjective)

By position, league overall, all teams considered

Keeper: Spain

Central Defender: England

Outside Defender: Tie

Defensive Mid: England

Creative Mid: Spain

Outside Attack: Spain

Strikers: Tie

Head to head by overall player skills, by league

Heading: England

Effective corners: England

Free Kicks: Tie

Speed: England

Tackling: England

Positional Play: Spain

Accurate passing: Spain

Dribbling: Spain

Off the ball: Spain

Tactical sense: Spain

Reading the game's stages: Spain

Playing the ball out of danger: Spain

Possession play: Spain

Coaching: England

Conditioning: England

Creative attacking play: Spain

Defensive discipline: England

Dirty play and unnecessary roughness: England

Diving and embelleshment: Spain

So this is a start, I sometimes wonder why I even bother, but it was fun.

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Jeffrey S., I think you brought some interesting points about which league is better, but for me there is an important fact that makes me think the EPL is better than La Liga and it's the difference between the big clubs with the rest. I believe the difference is lesser in the EPL, therefore EPL is better.

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