Promotion/Relegation Will not work in MLS

[Luis_Rancagua]

I found this article very interesting. It comes directly from MLS Rumors. http://www.mls-rumors.net/2008/07/editorial-why-promotionrelegation-will.html

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Wednesday, July 23, 2008

EDITORIAL: Why Promotion/Relegation Will Probably Never Be A Part of MLS

As MLS Expansion Fever continues to sweep the nation, there is a significant minority of American fans who consider this the best time to start calling for a European style Promotion/Relegation system to be imposed if/when MLS hits 24 teams. Let me remind you all why promotion/relegation will never be part of MLS.

-- None of the big money investors currently throwing money at MLS are willing to pay tens of millions of dollars to play in anything but the top league. To American fans, weaned on the franchise model, it'd be like asking a new expansion baseball team to play in AAA and earn their way up.

-- Protection of key markets. There are some teams that could drop out of MLS right now, and it wouldn't be too much of a loss to the league's media footprint. However, I remind you that despite having David Beckham, the Los Angeles Galaxy had the 3rd worst record in the league in 2007. Do you think ESPN would be as interested in showing MLS games in 2008 if "The Golden One" was playing in the 2nd division?

-- In smaller nations such as England, or Scotland, driving between cities is measured in hours, not days, so, not playing in a top league isn't as big a deal, travel wise. Let's see what the travel costs are like between Miami and Seattle, for example. And with a 2nd division without MLS's media contracts, or salaries, such as they are? You'd have to be a financial masochist to absorb those costs.

-- The American public has never been brought up on promotion/relegation. Instead, in America, the operative word is PARITY. This may sound ironic, but America, the bastion of capitalism, as the most un-capitalistic sports system where last place teams get a lot of help. (remember the extra allocations for teams that missed out on the playoffs that MLS offers?). In Europe and elsewhere, last place teams don't get much help. They get a "So Long, and good luck!" kick in the butt down to a lower league. In the English Premier League, smaller teams like Fulham are romantic, and you can root for them as a story, and enjoy their local support.. However, in America, they have a name for a team playing in a too-small stadium without any amenities. That word? Relocation Candidates.

--The draft system and allocation system would have to be completely re-done.

So I can understand why people who pine for all things foreign would want MLS's league system to mimic that found elsewhere. However, its not going to happen. Not in 2010, not ever. And to those who can't see that promotion/relegation could never work in America, and say that somehow makes MLS a "lesser" league? Careful. Your Eurosnob is showing.

Disagree? How would you make it work?

-D.Y. for MLS-Rumors.net

[masster]

People always tell me that promotion/relegation will never work in North America and my response is how can you be so sure? As far as I know, it has never been tried. Maybe fans would eat it up! I can guarantee that a game between 2 bottom teams in a league with promotion/relegation would be a lot more exciting for those same fans than in a league where they are already out of the playoffs and they have nothing to play for. Here are my rebutals to his arguments:

--Once MLS reaches a certain number (18/20) of teams, other cities will still want in. If MLS wanted to establish a pro/rel system they could say the only way you can enter our circuit is by winning your way in and not buying your way in. I guarentee there still would be investors that would be willing to try. Hell, Kerfoot would be one of them.

--When was the last time Manchester United was relegated? How about Real Madrid? I don't think Inter Milan has ever been relegated in their history! If MLS actually worked like a real league and allowed the big markets to spend more of the dollars that they generate, you would not see the LA Galaxy finishing 3rd from bottom. It is the insanely low salary cap that is the problem. LA, Toronto and Chicago would be near the top whereas Columbus and KC would be near the bottom, just as it should be. If by chance the Galaxy did get relegated, "The Golden One" would not be playing in the second division, he would be transfered to a team in the top flight. In fact the Galaxy getting relegated would make one hell of a story. That was the only thing that made the French League worth watching last season, was PSG going to go down?

--How much money does the National Lacrose League generate? What about the WNBA? The USL is still in exsistence are they not? Are flights in these leagues mircaulously cheaper? Are you saying that MLS2 could not survive but these obscure, continent-wide, professional leagues can?

--This whole argument that Americans won't accept pro/rel is garbage. Why is is that some people are still trying to 'convert' people that don't know, understand and love the sport? There are lots of Americans who do. Even MLS and Don Garber have been saying that their focus is bringing people that know the game to MLS. Hispanics, kids that play the game, people that watch the major tournaments like the Euros. In their early years MLS tried to 'Americanize' their league and it didn't work. Obviously some people don't remember these facts. Teams had stupid nicknames and wore tacky jersies, the clock counted down and there were shootouts to break ties. All this **** is gone. Fans wanted an authentic football experience and I believe Pro/Rel is a part of that.

--The draft and the allocation system should be abolished anyways.

Maybe MLS doesn't want pro/rel? Maybe their eventual goal is to be a 30 team, 2 conference, franchise league like all of the other major North American sports? Fine, that is their decision. But don't tell me pro/rel could never work in North America. A lot of people said soccer would never work in North America either...don't they look foolish now.

[Cashcleaner]

Masster, do you have any idea how many professional baseball teams play in North America in all tiers (Minor League to Major League) and how long some of those clubs and leagues have been around? Why hasn't baseball used a system of promotion and relegation? There are far too many reasons NOT to adopt that system.

I have a question as well. Why do people think that if something works for Europe or South America, it's gonna work here?

[Canuck Oranje]

I don't see why a Dutch system of limited promotion/relegation wouldn't work. In the Dutch system, there is only promotion and relegation between the top and second tier.

On big money not accepting, if it leads to a broader and bigger competition, they can make even more money. Cup tournaments allow for teams to play teams from different levels.

The clubs still get to keep their protected zone which really doesn't mean much if another group of big money investors decides that MLS is a joke and builds their own big money league on principles more attractive to fans. I'm not saying it will happen but the North American league system is based on independent leagues where one has become dominant over many years of development. In the rest of the world, however, competitions are created to occupy existing teams. The pyramid system developed as a means to determine a national champion.

As for geography, Brazil is bigger than the contiguous states of the USA. Yes, most of the Top tier is based in the South and Southeast of the country, but their are some from the north and central in both the top and second tier.

And far as the number of teams are concerned, I suspect Brazil has a comparable number of teams. The CBF has 389 teams in its ranking system which means that all these active teams have participated in a national competition at some time. That ranking system does not include teams that have yet to make an appearance on the national scene. There are probably another 300 - 500 legitimate teams at that level.

I also have a question. Why do people believe that if a system has not been used in other sports in North America, it will never work here?

There are other ways to organize. There is never only one way.

[Massive Attack]

I actually think never is an understatement. The only people who are pushing for this are nerdy soccer fans on internet forums who romanticize about the way things are done in the rest of the world.

Quite frankly, I think there is a better chance of promotion/relegation being abolished in Europe's top leagues than it being introduced here.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by Canuck Oranje

I don't see why a Dutch system of limited promotion/relegation wouldn't work. In the Dutch system, there is only promotion and relegation between the top and second tier.

The applicants to MLS are a bit more substantial than the likes of AGOVV Apeldoorn and TOP Oss. Nobody is going to spend upwards of $100 mill for an SSS and the expansion fee to wind up playing in a second tier league.

[masster]

quote:Originally posted by Cashcleaner

Masster, do you have any idea how many professional baseball teams play in North America in all tiers (Minor League to Major League) and how long some of those clubs and leagues have been around? Why hasn't baseball used a system of promotion and relegation? There are far too many reasons NOT to adopt that system.

I have a question as well. Why do people think that if something works for Europe or South America, it's gonna work here?

And what are those reasons exactly? What makes you think that it won't work? List your reasons and I will do my best to go through them one by one.

Listen, I'm not saying that it will happen or even that it should happen (although I would love to see it). I'm just saying, don't tell me that it CAN'T or happen.

[Eric]

quote:Originally posted by Cashcleaner

I have a question as well. Why do people think that if something works for Europe or South America, it's gonna work here?

Simply because people are people and the sport is the same, different names in different countries but still the same sport. One thing is for sure, fans will have more reasons to be passionate just because every game will mean something important for their club and repetition makes the habit.

[amacpher]

quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack

Quite frankly, I think there is a better chance of promotion/relegation being abolished in Europe's top leagues than it being introduced here.

But attendances grew significantly in England non-league divisions when pro/rel was introduced in the late 1980's b/w the league and non-league.

Anyway, let me first make it clear that I don't think pro/rel has a hope in hell of happening in MLS in the next 50 years.

BUT...

Those reasons listed in that article for why pro/rel will never happen is complete hogwash:

- " None of the big money investors currently throwing money at MLS are willing to pay tens of millions of dollars to play in anything but the top league."

This weak argument is constantly brought-up. People tend to always look at pro/rel from the negative view (i.e. the relegation POV). What about the people investing only one million dollars for a lower-league club, with the potential to really make their investment grow? There are many many more millionaires out there like this, then there are people with $100 million+ that can afford a top-flight team. And even those $100 million folks, probably like the risk. IT's how they got rich in the first place. Pro/rel doesn't seem to be stopping American investors from buying majority shares in English Premiership clubs, that's for sure.

- size of the country.

To solve it you break the lower divisions into regions. This is not rocket science.

- draft system.

Who cares? Its a stupid idea anyway to award failure.

- parity.

Another bizarre argument. The main consequence of pro/rel is to replace a weaker team (in the top flight) with a better one (from the division below). IOW, pro/relincreases parity.

- protection of key markets.

Someone like LandyCakes would just be transferred to a top flight club if LA got relegated.

The article is really answering the question, why can't pro/rel work RIGHT NOW? And I agree, it cannot. You need a fully established base of 30-40 teams before you can even think about it. But if that does happen (will take forever, i know), then maybe North America will finally come to its senses and opt to move away from the cartel system.

[Keano]

quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack

I actually think never is an understatement. The only people who are pushing for this are nerdy soccer fans on internet forums who romanticize about the way things are done in the rest of the world.

Quite frankly, I think there is a better chance of promotion/relegation being abolished in Europe's top leagues than it being introduced here.

What's the point of being insulting and political? It has nothing to do with Eurosnobbery nor geekiness. Many people recognize the fact that promotion/relegation systems create much more motivation to teams. Take hockey where bad teams purposefully tank to get high draft picks, this is boring and sad. And a lot of people find it really fun to see the "cinderalla" stories that inevitably occur when little, passionately supported lower tier teams make it up. That's all a fun part of the sport in other parts of the world that would be nice to introduce in N.A.

[youllneverwalkalone]

Great posts Masster & Amacpher!

I actually think it could work right now. It's not like there's a whole whack of TV money available once you reach the top flight, so playing MLS2 shouldn't really hurt you that much financially. As you shed veteran salaries and turn to your academy, it's also a great way to develop talent. This is how every other 2nd tier league survives, why not MLS?

Here's our tables for next year:

MLS 1:

NYRB

Chicago

Toronto

Los Angeles

New England

RSL

Colorado

FC Dallas

Chivas

DC United

MLS 2:

Kansas City (Suck, no stadium)

San Jose (Expansion anyway, no stadium)

Columbus (same owners as Dallas)

Houston (need DeRo in TO; same owners as LA)

Seattle (earn it)

Portland (earn it)

Philadelphia (show us you can have a team)

Vancouver (get us stadium already)

Montreal (earn it)

Rochester (Montreal needs an enemy other than TFC)

Easy. Done and dusted. 2 matches home and away for 36. Top 2 and bottom 2 either switch or playoff for 1 to 2 spots.

Have a Carling Cup style tourney to ensure fixtures between divisions.

[Whither Canada]

This is a very interesting argument.

I'd like to see it happen eventually because it adds a ton of interest to the league, makes even end-of-season games important for just about every team (and their fans of course), etc.

However I can't see it happening any time soon for a couple of reasons:

1. I don't think the league is big enough and solid enough from top to bottom yet (and I'll even say that for soccer in general in the U.S.). I can see some of the smaller/weaker teams being folded up rather than try to play out a season or three in the lower division - I'm not convinced there's enough passion on the part of the owners or fans of some of the teams to make a go of it down there. And the last thing I want to see is teams closing up shop.

2. From a purely procedural point of view, how would this be introduced? I can't see enough owners willing to vote in favour of a system that has the potential to drop them out of the league. It would be like playing Russian roulette for them. Let's face it, would you do that?

[Tractor Boy]

If you think of a team who is crap in MLS for example San Jose this year, wouldn't they be more sucessful playing in the second tier....winning puts bums on seats. There could always be a FA Cup style competition which would then give San Jose the opportunity to play LA Galaxy or whoever if they are drawn against them.

[Tractor Boy]

I bet there would be even more excitement in USL if the top two teams would gain promotion to MLS. And would the bottom MLS teams be trying even harder than they are right now to avoid relegation...you betchya.

At the moment what have San Jose got to fear for finishing bottom.....absolutely sweet fa.

[Whither Canada]

But I'd argue that the current San Jose ownership group would never have joined the league if they couldn't be guaranteed a spot in the league in the second year.

[Whither Canada]

And how would a new team go about joining the league in the first place? Would they have to join the second division and hope to work their way up?

We're a long way away from that in North America at the moment.

[Tractor Boy]

True, but I'd argue that a team that wins in MLS2 soring goals would be more entertaining than the team at the bottom of MLS1 getting thumped each week. Entertainment = crowds = revenue.

[mulliganl]

The Cinderella assent of low level teams are one reason club soccer is an amazing spectator sport. Approx. ten years ago Wigan Athletic was in the third division of the England pyramid. After 3 promotions, they are now in the Premier League. It's all thanks to an owner who poured his money into the team but, nonetheless, fascinating to have watched.

One reason why North American sports thrive on their entry to their individual league's playoffs is because that's where all the money is (at least of gate and TV revenue). Case and point: barring a miraculous second half, the Blue Jays (and a handful of other teams in the American League) are out of the playoffs. They are not going to be one of the top 4 teams in the league. They won't make the playoffs and there isn't much point to keep watching this year and there is still almost half the season to play! IF the bottom 2 teams in the American League were relegated to AAA, fans of bottom dwellers would still have a reason to cheer their boys on. They'll be able to say 'Well, we didn't get into the playoffs, but at least we beat out Kansas City and Seattle and aren't in AAA next year!'

Now I'm not saying that relegation is conceivable in all (or any) North American sport, I'm just saying that it would be nice to give fans more to cheer for during the season than just getting into the playoffs. And since there's a standard model for it in soccer around the world, it seems to me that soccer's the most likely (however unlikely) North American sport to implement it.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack

I actually think never is an understatement. The only people who are pushing for this are nerdy soccer fans on internet forums who romanticize about the way things are done in the rest of the world.

yeah, here is another topic I hate weighinhg in on in this forum because I have sore fingers from all the typing time that I have consumered over the years on it. Beside The topic starter should know full well by now that everything has been said that needs to be said on this topic. Proving again that he is an attentions seeker rather than someone with a genuine interest for this topic or soccer in general.

Anyways your quote aptly sums it up and I would add that in addition to being "nerdy soccer fans on internet forums who romanticize about the way things are done in the rest of the world," they have questionable understanding of the practicalities of such a system in the context of the way pro sports are structured operated and run in North America.

Anyways you can best sum it all up why it wont work with the following question: How do convince a billionaire to spend XX millions of dollars to buy at team only to find out that you might be relegated out of the league that you spend XX milliosn of dollars to get into?

[Tractor Boy]

Its interesting to listen to the two soccer talk shows on Sirius, One is for (Steven & Kenny) and one is agianst (Charlie & Georgio) promotion & relegation

[Keano]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

yeah, here is another topic I hate weighinhg in on on this forum because I have sore fingers from all the typing time that I have consumered over the years on it. I hate it when it comes up again. Beside The topic starter should know full well by now that everything has been said that needs to be said on this topic. He is nothing more than an attentions seeker rather than someone with a genuine interest for this of this topic or soccer in general.

Anyways your quote aptly sums it up and I would add that in addition to being "nerdy soccer fans on internet forums who romanticize about the way things are done in the rest of the world," they have zero understanding of the practicalities of such a system in the context of the way pro sports are structured operated and run in North America.

Wrong. Understand perfectly yet lament it and wish it could be implemented.

[Whither Canada]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

yeah, here is another topic I hate weighinhg in on in this forum because I have sore fingers from all the typing time that I have consumered over the years on it. Beside The topic starter should know full well by now that everything has been said that needs to be said on this topic. Proving again that he is an attentions seeker rather than someone with a genuine interest for this topic or soccer in general.

Yes, because every single poster on this board has been here from day one and reads every single thread every day.

The "topic starter" posted a new article and thought it might be worth commenting on. Why can't people discuss this topic again if they want, especially if they're unaware of old threads. If you don't like it, stop reading it.

Has somebody got a gun to your head making you read all these posts?

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Keano

Wrong. Understand perfectly yet lament it and wish it could be implemented.

Why? supporting relegation or cheering for promotion or relegation sides is like cheering for the Minardis in Formulae One. Thats fine for the citizenry of that community, but in the bigger picture it does no good to relegate the New York Yankees, Dallas Cowboys or other potentially similar team in soccer. Pro rel is founded on the nostagic princple of amateurism which in relality has disappeared from club soccer in europe some 50 years ago.

The real finacial driving forces are the big clubs who quite simply never get relegated anyways. Therefore to advocate such a system would be akin to saying you favour a system whereby the same 1-3 clubs win the title year after year.

In a continent where every community like thinks that it is entitled to the same privileges as the biggest metropolis, how are people going to accept and support the game if they know full well that there is no chance for them to win a championship at the same level as the biggest clubs.

Winning and losing is not what determines whose promoted and whose relagated, its $$$$.

[amacpher]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

Anyways your quote aptly sums it up and I would add that in addition to being "nerdy soccer fans on internet forums who romanticize about the way things are done in the rest of the world," they have questionable understanding of the practicalities of such a system in the context of the way pro sports are structured operated and run in North America.

Yes, because a cartel system simply can't be beat. [)]

The problem with Massive Attack's statement is that it oozes hypocricy. Isn't he a regular at BMO park and a TFC supporter? Well, guess who the TFC fans are immitating at each match? Blue Jays fans? Errr... no.

They're immitating football fans from the rest of the world (ROW). Even with the names "Toronto Ultras/U-sector".

Face it, there are some things the ROW just does better, despite what Don Cherry has to say.

quote:

Anyways you can best sum it all up why it wont work with the following question: How do convince a billionaire to spend XX millions of dollars to buy at team only to find out that you might be relegated out of the league that you spend XX milliosn of dollars to get into?

Yes, that's why you'll never see an American investor purchase the majority share of a European football club...

[amacpher]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

Why? supporting relegation or cheering for promotion or relegation sides is like cheering for the Minardis in Formulae One. Thats fine for the citizenry of that community, but in the bigger picture it does no good to relegate the New York Yankees, Dallas Cowboys or other potentially similar team in soccer. Pro rel is founded on the nostagic princple of amateurism which in relality has disappeared from club soccer in europe some 50 years ago.

The real finacial driving forces are the big clubs who quite simply never get relegated anyways. Therefore to advocate such a system would be akin to saying you favour a system whereby the same 1-3 clubs win the title year after year.

Simply not true -- look at South America.

There are many many factors that contribute to the "problem" you refer to. Champions League money and unbalanced TV money are at the top of that list (not pro/rel which actually increases parity). And another big reason is the championships in European football are given to the best teams. If they had a crap-shoot playoff to determine its champions, then I'm sure there would be a bigger pool of contenders each year (like in the FA Cup or Copa Del Rey where pretty much anyone in the top flight has a shot to win it).