G-Man Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 http://www.cbc.ca/olympics/stories/indepth.shtml?/story/olympics/national/2006/02/01/Sports/italy-ultras060201.html Calcio (soccer) is the national obsession in Italy, but displays of overt racism, facism and anti-Semitism by the ultras – small, but well-organized, groups of militant fans who use soccer venues to disseminate messages of hate – have become alarmingly commonplace on the terraces of Italian stadiums. The latest episode happened Sunday during a game at Rome's Stadio Olimpico between AS Roma and Tuscan side Livorno. AS Roma ultras in the curva (the end section of the stadium) brazenly unfurled banners with swastikas and neo-Nazi symbols, images of fascist dictator Benito Mussolini and signs with anti-Semitic slogans. They also brandished a banner in German that read Got mit uns (God is with us) while giving the stiff-armed Nazi salute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 I'll give you 3 guesses as to the relevance of this thread to Canadian Leagues & Clubs..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polish_LYNX_Fan Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 can we have this moved to the world section. Also your acting like this is the first time you see this. This happens practically @ every game in Italy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 I'm surprised that Jeffery S. has resisted the temptation to equate the U-Sector with these clowns. It's probably only a matter of time before that happens, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john tv Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca I'll give you 3 guesses as to the relevance of this thread to Canadian Leagues & Clubs..... G.L with the utmost respect for everyone that calls himself an Ultra here in Canada, he should give this second thoughts.The media will use this against them and against soccer.I have always been concerned about this name and what it may represent. I would even suggest that the MLS Toronto team would not want to get involved with anyone that calls themselves Ultras.Certainly not Larry Tannenbaum! Just give it a thought please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 Actually John this has been discussed in the past.....that's one reason why the group had been adopting the name "U-Sector" in more recent times (if you want to see how long ago the name was switched, remember the name used in the Jennifer Quinn article last season about the Lynx). The fact is, this article in the thread is two weeks old, and doesn't belong in this section. We all know what is being suggested here by the posting of this article in this section at this time....its just another trolling attempt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 Actually John this has been discussed in the past.....that's one reason why the group had been adopting the name "U-Sector" in more recent times (if you want to see how long ago the name was switched, remember the name used in the Jennifer Quinn article last season about the Lynx). The fact is, this article in the thread is two weeks old, and doesn't belong in this section. We all know what is being suggested here by the posting of this article in this section at this time....its just another trolling attempt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john tv Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca Actually John this has been discussed in the past.....that's one reason why the group had been adopting the name "U-Sector" in more recent times (if you want to see how long ago the name was switched, remember the name used in the Jennifer Quinn article last season about the Lynx). The fact is, this article in the thread is two weeks old, and doesn't belong in this section. We all know what is being suggested here by the posting of this article in this section at this time....its just another trolling attempt. Ok G.L is this U sector at all related or some connection with the Ultras? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 The group that was the Ultras in Toronto is now calling themselves U-Sector. Whether that name sticks as we move into the MLS era for Toronto, who knows. I don't think anyone is overly concerned about it at this stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealGooner Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 Ok John, do we equate Germans with Nazis because of Hitler? No we don't, so only G-man and the willfully ignorant would equate Ultras with racism. They do not have Ultras in England but they used to be plenty of racial abuse directed at black players as well as Hooliganism in England in the 1980s. So clearly Ultra does not eaqual racism or violence, unless of course someone does as part of their daily trolling efforts.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOareaFan Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 quote:Originally posted by RealGooner Ok John, do we equate Germans with Nazis because of Hitler? No we don't, so only G-man and the willfully ignorant would equate Ultras with racism. They do not have Ultras in England but they used to be plenty of racial abuse directed at black players as well as Hooliganism in England in the 1980s. So clearly Ultra does not eaqual racism or violence, unless of course someone does as part of their daily trolling efforts.... I think John has a point, though. His concern, as I read it, is not what is intended by the folks here who call themselves Ultras or U-Sector, or whatever. It is with what the name may be portrayed as in the local media. If the U-Sector is deemed to be the Ultras, some local reporter is bound to google "ultras soccer fans" and get the stories like the one G-Man has posted and draw a connection which may scare casual fans away. The image versus the intent is, I believe, John's point...not whether the U-Sector people here are racist or violent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 quote:Originally posted by TOareaFan I think John has a point, though. His concern, as I read it, is not what is intended by the folks here who call themselves Ultras or U-Sector, or whatever. It is with what the name may be portrayed as in the local media. If the U-Sector is deemed to be the Ultras, some local reporter is bound to google "ultras soccer fans" and get the stories like the one G-Man has posted and draw a connection which may scare casual fans away. The image versus the intent is, I believe, John's point...not whether the U-Sector people here are racist or violent. I agree that the word 'Ultras' could have a negative connation attached to it, which is probably why they've since changed to 'U-Sector' (which actually refers to the section they generally convene in). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealGooner Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Rudi I agree that the word 'Ultras' could have a negative connation attached to it, which is probably why they've since changed to 'U-Sector' (which actually refers to the section they generally convene in).Yeah I understand the point about not giving the media ammunition, but I honestly don't think using a different name will make any difference to anyone looking to do a soccer 'hooliganism' story. You don't have to be an Ultra for the media to label you a hoolie or a fascist. As long as their are groups of fans passionately supporting a soccer team in North America, some uninformed journalists looking for a sensational story will bring up the hooligan angle. Even if your group is called Toronto Black Squirrels Furry Supporters , some journo will write how "BSFS passionately sing and chant like the notorious soccer hooligans found in stadiums across Europe". Change the names all you want, it won't make a shred of difference to those determined to portray soccer and its supporters in a bad light. Active advocacy is the only way to change the media's tune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sstackho Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 I highly, highly support calling our group "The Toronto Black Squirrels Furry Supporters". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Domi Rulezz Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 quote: Originally posted by G-Man Calcio (soccer) is the national obsession in Italy, but displays of overt racism, facism and anti-Semitism by the ultras – small, but well-organized, groups of militant fans who use soccer venues to disseminate messages of hate – have become alarmingly commonplace on the terraces of Italian stadiums. The latest episode happened Sunday during a game at Rome's Stadio Olimpico between AS Roma and Tuscan side Livorno. AS Roma ultras in the curva (the end section of the stadium) brazenly unfurled banners with swastikas and neo-Nazi symbols, images of fascist dictator Benito Mussolini and signs with anti-Semitic slogans. Hey guys, I finally got Ed to send me an extra one of his BS Detectors*, and upon installing it on my computer I was able to run a few paragrahs of G-man's linked story through the translator. Here's what it read: "Football (soccer) is the national obsession on the Voyageurs Board, but displays of overt idiocy, repetitiveness and anti-logic by G-Man – a small-minded, but singularily-focused, board member claiming to be a fan who uses the issues of building soccer venues to disseminate messages of stupidity – have become alarmingly commonplace on the bandwith of Canadian internet protocols. The latest episode happened Monday on a sub-forum at Voyageurs discussing Canadian Leagues and Clubs. G-Man brazenly unfurled a thread with hyperlinks to a news story about Italian Ultras, in a tired attempt to equate members of Toronto's U-Sector (formerly known as the Toronto Ultras) with overzealous supporters with a long history of violence and unruliness." An incredible piece of software, this thing is. And thanks to this board, there will be ample opportunity for me to test it out. * - only available in Alberta. Patented the day after Whorgreaves lied on national TV about his intentions to play for Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJT Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 Ironically, while there are many threads that start off innocently enough and then de-evolve into silliness, this one started like a ticking timebomb and somehow evolved into something useful. Therefore, I'm going to leave it in the Canadian Clubs & Leagues section, with an appropriate title change. However, from this point onwards all posts should be directed towards the discussion that resulted from johntv's first post regarding the Ultras name. Any other posts, in particular those attacking G-Man or baiting the Ultras/U-Sector/whatever, may result in deletions or the locking of this thread. RealGooner, you had four nearly-identical posts, so I deleted the first three. I assume you were trying to edit the first one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franky Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 whoaaa!! look at all those racists in Scotland. ahhh, for god sakes, the media always portrays the connatation of soccer to hooliganism, all the time. ultras is NOT hooliganism, nor racism, only ultimate soccer fans that love their soccer team/game passionately, but unfortunately, out of thousands in a group, there has to be a few odd goof balls that puts a black eye on the group itself, the club, the city, the country, etc, etc. If the local media wants to be totally ignorant about the significance behind the term Ultras, it would simply be TYPICAL. then we might as well be say outright that our police force, as a whole, is racist too, heck, i'll throw in sexist. don't let a few bad apples spoil the bunch. Ultras came about here in T.O., when a small group of us tried to stir a movement of soccer afficianados trying to create some atmosphere at a very gut wrenching Lynx game. Originally, it was meant for the MNT, but we used the Lynx games for practice. Some of us felt that Ultras gave it some flave and we went with it. We didn't hurt anyone, nor did we scar anyone except the Americans and the Kebeckers and rightfully so[]. heck, if you look at everyone's ethnic and religious background, we all came from different places ie; polish, italian, russian, persian, english, spanish, jewish, etc, etc. Basically, we came to together because of one thing, for the love of the game, soccer. no one had anything to prove but bring your voice and sing with us. in the end we developed a great comradery (sp??)and it extended to road trips, actual soccer matches versus other supporting groups and as simple as lunch/dinner/drinks together. so if you think that something as simple as the word Ultras would signify something ignorant, remember that you might as well include the term "SOCCER" or "FOOTBALL" or "FUTBOL" or "CALCIO", or however, you want to call it, as something negative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calgary Oranje Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Domi Rulezz * - only available in Alberta. Patented the day after Whorgreaves lied on national TV about his intentions to play for Canada. Awesome stuff! Whorgreaves often gets a free pass in my parts and on the Calgary soccer board for being a quote-unquote "local boy made good." I always appreciate reminders of what a traitorous little prima donna he really is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john tv Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Franky whoaaa!! look at all those racists in Scotland. ahhh, for god sakes, the media always portrays the connatation of soccer to hooliganism, all the time. ultras is NOT hooliganism, nor racism, only ultimate soccer fans that love their soccer team/game passionately, but unfortunately, out of thousands in a group, there has to be a few odd goof balls that puts a black eye on the group itself, the club, the city, the country, etc, etc. If the local media wants to be totally ignorant about the significance behind the term Ultras, it would simply be TYPICAL. then we might as well be say outright that our police force, as a whole, is racist too, heck, i'll throw in sexist. don't let a few bad apples spoil the bunch. Ultras came about here in T.O., when a small group of us tried to stir a movement of soccer afficianados trying to create some atmosphere at a very gut wrenching Lynx game. Originally, it was meant for the MNT, but we used the Lynx games for practice. Some of us felt that Ultras gave it some flave and we went with it. We didn't hurt anyone, nor did we scar anyone except the Americans and the Kebeckers and rightfully so[]. heck, if you look at everyone's ethnic and religious background, we all came from different places ie; polish, italian, russian, persian, english, spanish, jewish, etc, etc. Basically, we came to together because of one thing, for the love of the game, soccer. no one had anything to prove but bring your voice and sing with us. in the end we developed a great comradery (sp??)and it extended to road trips, actual soccer matches versus other supporting groups and as simple as lunch/dinner/drinks together. so if you think that something as simple as the word Ultras would signify something ignorant, remember that you might as well include the term "SOCCER" or "FOOTBALL" or "FUTBOL" or "CALCIO", or however, you want to call it, as something negative. Franky I am super sensitive about the image of our game. We have to overcome a huge mountain of obstacles and this Ultra thing, how well meaning, could backfire on us. I agree that even mentioning that you are a soccer fan may put you in a class of hoodlums etc. I know the secret resentment that exist against our game and that thing is still festering out there. I have been saying this for years and many more years will go by before we are totally accepted in this wonderfull and great society. I cannot tell you how many times i have run into that thing,he is a soccer fan and therefore not Canadian. I always use the example of who is playing this game and it appears that most competitive boys/male soccer players come from foreign parents.Just look at our Canadain National Team. I even suggest that most of the boardmembers have foreign parents.We are not there yet and only on the girls side do we see a different picture, many more girls have Canadian born parents.That is why I believe that the girls will ultimately make the fifference and sspeed up this process of acceptance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franky Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 let me give you a different perspective on how cloudy people's minds can be esp. here in North America. 1984, all season i am simply in awe of the former H-Block group at varsity during Blizzard games, soo too are a few relatives and friends of mine, but our elders thought they were bad news. They felt H-Block signified they were ex-cons from a prison. By the near end of the season, we crept up to the group and found they were great bunch of guys and loved the Blizzard passionately, although they exhibited the odd foul language but it happens everywhere. by then, our elders thought it was okay to sit near them and by the playoffs, it felt like, the place to be at varsity. season over, no more chance to expand on something that had the potential of growing into a group, nothing like you would ever see in T.O. Lost opportunity to get to know people that had something in common and that is the love of a sport, no matter where you came from. Ultras, Voyageurs, Southsiders, Sean's infactuation for Bobby []. they will all be stereotyped no matter what, by North American media. that is all they do here, is look for the negatives and never the positives. antoher example, 1991, i helped create the North York Rockets Boosters. to no avail, all i got was mere criticism. we were just a bunch of punks looking for trouble and i cannot tell you how many times the police would approach our section to us calm us down or we will be removed from the premises. the reason, these lil' tiddly soccer families were being annoyed by our chants ALL GAME LONG, i am telling you, if you have the right chemistry, we can be relentless. we created an unbelievable atmosphere at Esther Shnier. After that season, i bowed out and pursued a different direction in the CSL. YOu can be called the Wiggles, but if there are a few bad apples in the group, they will cause the group to be branded whatever; racists, punks, simply trouble. If a group is identified as Ultras or U-Sector or PU-sector, it is up to group members or followers to maintain the integrity and image of the group, not what the media dictates. Heck, we might as well incriminate Gretzky while we are at it, since the media has done their investigative work. [imagine a smilie with rolling eyes] YOu let the media dictate what they want, then that is your downfall. If you are instrumental in creating a section that conveys what the sport and the team is truly about, anything is possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanKeay Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 This shouldnt even be a thread.... Ultras - A Group of Fantatics Thats it, thats who we are...... dont like it... meh If we were stupid hooligans we wouldnt have pictures like this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 Hey Frank, are you coming out to the next meeting (on the 25th)? The MLSE dude that we've been talking to is supposed to be there. It would be nice to get some of the guy like yourself, David Bailey & myself that have been around the scene for a while and let them know what used to work in the NASL days from a fan perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john tv Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 quote:Originally posted by SeanKeay This shouldnt even be a thread.... Ultras - A Group of Fantatics Thats it, thats who we are...... dont like it... meh If we were stupid hooligans we wouldnt have pictures like this I love you guys and I think you are all wonderfull and very motivated, although some are not the best looking guys in the world. It is extremely important that a supporters group exist and the bigger the better. In fact organizing this thing along the lines of a structure would even be better. Yes I was the PR guy at the North York rockets and the Police had it in for our guys big time,what do you do. If the MLS guy shows up he will have some reservations I suspect and it would be great to put him at ease asap.So don't wear those yellow shirts I would suggest. If you guys want me to talk to him that would be great and with my very extensive background and knowledge never mind my hight,anyway whatever.Still love you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River City Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 quote:Originally posted by SeanKeay You guys look like like trouble to me.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 quote:Originally posted by john tv I love you guys and I think you are all wonderfull and very motivated, although some are not the best looking guys in the world. I'll have you know that most of the ugly ones in that pic are the Rhino's supporters (including some wearing yellow)! [] Don't worry, last I checked there were no plans for everyone to show up at the next meeting with an obligatory yellow t-shirt. Not even if the weather improves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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