The Ultras name

[SeanKeay]

Also there will be a secret song on the CD with Marc Birchams 2002 hit

[john tv]

Coincidence allright. Just read the Dutch news and here it is, the Mayor of Amsterdam closed down the Ajax clubhouse fan club.Found a stash of drugs and weapons. These guys were in a real fight with the ADO fans from ADO The Hague(My home town).There was a huge fight over the week-end between the two.

I guess they will have to find a bar to meet!

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

You suck. As all the members of the U-sector know we already have a whole catalogue of songs to chant for Adrian Serioux (and most of them are actually good ones, from artists people have actually heard of). In fact we will be discussing with MLSE the possibility of releasing a CD of Serioux chants to be sold at the supporter's group merchandise booth. Chants like the one above written from alleged Canadian soccer fans which do nothing but ridicule Canadian soccer players have no place on the CD - or on this board for that matter.

Lots of Jethro Tull eh? A little bit of the ELO thrown in for good measure. The kids will buy it up in buckets.

The whole idea of MLS Toronto ridicules Canadian soccer. It ridicules the tradition of soccer in places like Montreal and Vancouver who have supported the pro game over the last 10 years. All Toronto has done is drawn 2500 a game on average.

If the gift stadium wasn't given to MLSE they would have never bit. It took close to 60 million in hand-outs to get them to set-up shop in a market thats proven it's not pro soccer friendly. Not a good sign considering that the MLS bleeds red.

For mere 20 million dollar hand out to Saputo and Kerfoot each, Canada could had 2 MLS teams. Two SSS, in two proven markets.

So in fact G-L....you suck and all the Starship albums can't save you.

to the tune of we built this city..

We built this stadium, we built this stadium with welfare money

Built this club, we built this club on goverment hand-outs

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by john tv

Coincidence allright. Just read the Dutch news and here it is, the Mayor of Amsterdam closed down the Ajax clubhouse fan club.Found a stash of drugs and weapons. These guys were in a real fight with the ADO fans from ADO The Hague(My home town).There was a huge fight over the week-end between the two.

I guess they will have to find a bar to meet!

Yeah, I heard the mayor banned the ajax fans from the wekend game too. Some serious fan issues over there.

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by john tv

NOW IF WE HAVE THAT SONG OR SONGS,WHAT HAPPENS AT ALL THE OTHER MAJOR EVENTS,SUCH AS BASEBALL,FOOTBALL AND HOCKEY. I DON'T THINK THESE SPORTS WILL ALLOW THE SINGING AS THE SOCCER GUYS WOULD,NOR WOULD IT BE ACCEPTABLE SINCE THESE SPORTS CONTAIN A LOT OF COMMENTARY AS WELL.THIS COMMENTARY WILL BE DROWNED OUT BY THE FANS,SO THIS WILL BE A NO NO.WHAT WILL COME OUT IS THAT BEING AT A SOCCER EVENT WITH ALL THAT CROWD PARTICIPATION THESE SPORTS WILL START TO LOOK DULL.

THAT IS WHAT HAS BEEN MISSING AT ALL THESE LEAFS GAMES I WENT TO.ALL WE HEAR IS THIS GO LEAFS GO AND THAT IS IT.

All this talk about singing and chanting being uncanadian is hilarious. I totally agree that the unique way that soccer fans support their teams is what North American fans have been missing. Everyone I meet who has been to a game abroad comes back overawed at how exciting it is. The North American sports markets are saturated with team sports, but the crowd involvement of soccer sets us apart. We must avoid the hooligan connection being made, as much as we must avoid the solutions of the G-mans of Canada who want us to act like we were spectating at a tennis tournament (Ooohhh, Ahhh, clap clap clap, plass the peanuts please etc)

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

Lots of Jethro Tull eh? A little bit of the ELO thrown in for good measure. The kids will buy it up in buckets.

Actually no Tull for Serioux, even if his bearded appearance would actually fit in well with the band. Although we might be doing some when and if the Canadian Olympic qualifiers roll into town and Nik Ledgerwood is on the team.

quote:

The whole idea of MLS Toronto ridicules Canadian soccer.

Yes, thank you, we've heard your opinion on this close to 5 million times already. I've got some very news for you - none of us care what you think. While we're on the subject on song lyrics, here's the lyrics to one of the finest songs released in 2005, from one of the greatest bands of all time, lyrics which I am now beginning to suspect were written about you:

It might come in a letter,

darkness falls in a telephone call;

I await the unexpected

with one ear to the party wall.

Is it the pricking of the conscience,

is it the itching of hair shirt,

is it the dictionary definition

of a precipice to skirt?

It's the nutter alert!

Though this face is familiar

something in it has bred contempt;

I never asked for your opinion

or your back-handed compliments.

Oh, but here comes that special nonsense

all the words out in a spurt,

the unhinging of the trolley

as the mouth begins to blurt...

it's the nutter alert!

I can see we're in trouble

from that glint in the eye you've got;

there's no sense to the story,

comprehensively lost, the plot.

And how contorted is that logic

you so forcefully exert:

you're a car crash in the making,

head-on, that's a racing cert.

It's the nutter alert,

this is the nutter alert!

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

The whole idea of MLS Toronto ridicules Canadian soccer. It ridicules the tradition of soccer in places like Montreal and Vancouver who have supported the pro game over the last 10 years. All Toronto has done is drawn 2500 a game on average.

Provide evidence of said ridicule please. As far as I can see the impact and Whitecaps are still going strong. You need to tie your disparate rants together into an argument there bud.

[TOareaFan]

quote:Originally posted by RealGooner

All this talk about singing and chanting being uncanadian is hilarious. I totally agree that the unique way that soccer fans support their teams is what North American fans have been missing. Everyone I meet who has been to a game abroad comes back overawed at how exciting it is. The North American sports markets are saturated with team sports, but the crowd involvement of soccer sets us apart. We must avoid the hooligan connection being made, as much as we must avoid the solutions of the G-mans of Canada who want us to act like we were spectating at a tennis tournament (Ooohhh, Ahhh, clap clap clap, plass the peanuts please etc)

[SeanKeay]

She got out of the car with a cocaine nose and a nosejob

She wore her pants so tight, wasn’t too bright

but that doesn’t matter much when you’re a sight for sore eyes

And everybody’s gonna have a good time

I look at girls all the time

I can’t help it, its a habit I’ve acquired

I need a woman’ touch just a little too much

Too many good looking girls I wanna ask you all out

What’s every good looking girl doing tonight

Take me I’m all the man you’ll need

I get so excited

GOD DAMN I need a sex change

In the middle of the night

She wakes me up and then we do it one more time

We do it over and over

And everybody’s gonna have a good time

I look at girls all the time

I can’t help it, it’s a habit I’ve acquired

I need a woman’s touch a little too much

Too many good looking girls I wanna ask you all out

What’s every good looking girl doing tonight?

I’m free and I got my bedroom key

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by TOareaFan

A few hundred die hards in a 20,000 seat stadium will not create the atmosphere that is present at Villa Park, Parkhead, Philips Stadium or any of the other stadiums that I have enjoyed games in.

Of course not. But nowhere has it been suggested that one of the things a supporters group plans to do is to cap off membership in the group at 300 members. The group will start small, but the idea is for the group to grow as time goes on. You have to start somewhere, and it is better to make the attempt than to not try at all. If the group can get as large as the Chicago fans (a realistic goal) then I don't think the effort will have been wasted in terms of the game's atmosphere & the effect it can have on the home team.

[sstackho]

Hold up. Wait a minute.

There's a right time and a right place.

I got nothing but I admit it.

I need a little bit of something that'll shut me up.

'Cause you don't even know that you just sold your soul,

'cause you do what you're told and all your blood is cold.

[SeanKeay]

Thats what i like to hear

Good work other sean

[JayWay]

quote:Originally posted by john tv

NOW IF WE HAVE THAT SONG OR SONGS,WHAT HAPPENS AT ALL THE OTHER MAJOR EVENTS,SUCH AS BASEBALL,FOOTBALL AND HOCKEY. I DON'T THINK THESE SPORTS WILL ALLOW THE SINGING AS THE SOCCER GUYS WOULD,NOR WOULD IT BE ACCEPTABLE SINCE THESE SPORTS CONTAIN A LOT OF COMMENTARY AS WELL.THIS COMMENTARY WILL BE DROWNED OUT BY THE FANS,SO THIS WILL BE A NO NO.WHAT WILL COME OUT IS THAT BEING AT A SOCCER EVENT WITH ALL THAT CROWD PARTICIPATION THESE SPORTS WILL START TO LOOK DULL.

THAT IS WHAT HAS BEEN MISSING AT ALL THESE LEAFS GAMES I WENT TO.ALL WE HEAR IS THIS GO LEAFS GO AND THAT IS IT.

Singing isn't a soccer thing - it's a European thing. In Europe, the Ultras culture is found not only at football games, but hockey games, basketball games, Formula 1 races, everywhere.

And what does singing have to do with commentary? How does one effect the other? It's not like North American crowds have never been loud, you know. You don't have to compose four-verse epics with full bridges and brass section in order to be considered "vocal". Go to a Roughrider game or a Steelers game and listen to the crowd roar while their team is on defense. Or go to a Hab game (ugh, I can't believe I said that) and listen to the crowd respond to every movement of the puck. I don't recall the commentary being disrupted in those instances, and I don't forsee it being disrupted in the event that North American fans all of a sudden tap into their European spirit and start belting out You'll Never Walk Alone on a regular basis.

God, your silly attempts to disparage North American sports get stupider with every post.

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by JayWay

And what does singing have to do with commentary? How does one effect the other? It's not like North American crowds have never been loud, you know. You don't have to compose four-verse epics with full bridges and brass section in order to be considered "vocal". Go to a Roughrider game or a Steelers game and listen to the crowd roar while their team is on defense. Or go to a Hab game (ugh, I can't believe I said that) and listen to the crowd respond to every movement of the puck. I don't recall the commentary being disrupted in those instances, and I don't forsee it being disrupted in the event that North American fans all of a sudden tap into their European spirit and start belting out You'll Never Walk Alone on a regular basis.

God, your silly attempts to disparage North American sports get stupider with every post.

And your misinterpretation of our statements is even sillier. Did you even read what you are quoting from us? All we said is that we love the loud European/Latin American chanting drumming and singing, and offered reasons why chants and songs don't break out at North American sports games (piped commentary and music). General crowd noise happens EVERYWHERE, but chants and songs will be unique to North American soccer when it catches on here. Your point about singing at European hockey games is completely irrelevant. Saying that we prefer one way of support isn't necessarily disparaging of any other methods. Its choice man, some of us Canadians prefer the European fan way, get over it.

[john tv]

Jay it is awesome to be at a top class Europen soccer game wherever you go. Each one of them puts any game here in N.A to shame.It is totally amazing the exitement. Nevermind the National team stuff. We are missing so very very much.The funny part is when I try to sell or explain this to my Canadian friends,they all say why don't you go back. It's that deep and that difficult to change.No matter what if we sing we are not Canadian,so what do we do.We are up against a thing that was inbreaded by the media for whatever reason to make most Canadians believe that soccer is killings ,riots etc.We all on this board have a huge job ahead of us, to undo this image and make us part of the Canadian sporting scene and yes we do need the media big time and will they see the light and support us, what do you think?

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by TOareaFan

I have very little faith that, even if the crowds get big (15,000 or so regularly would be huge IMO and not very likely) at the EX, a significant portion of those people will be doing the singing and chanting thing....so don't expect to create that awsome European atmosphere.

You disagree with the stadium, I know, you wanna muzzle the ultras, I know, but you are not gonna stop this no matter how much of a proverbial wet blanket you want to be about this. You really arent going to discourage this by telling us we'll be ineffectual. My mind is really made up now, thanks. Since I know the stadium seems to have stuck a raw nerve with you, you now come across to me as somewhat desperate to see this whole thing fail. Are you afraid that if we try to generate a great unique atmosphere to help popularise soccerthis whole stadium project might be vindicated? I'm not trying to sound hostile to you because I'm not, but I have noticed your consistent opposition to everything stadium related, to the point of defending G-Man's right to hijack the thread started by mlsintoronto. Which was unreasonable IMO.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

Just want to chip in on the chanting question. I do not agree that a few hundred in a stadium will not make a difference. It definitely does. I have seen thirty guys at Camp Nou get the whole stadium going on a chant, so it depends on other factors, but a song or chant that is well known by fans will get picked up after a small group begins it. More complex ones will not, at least not usually.

Was at a Rayo Vallecano game this past weekend, the Madrid team that was once in top flight Spain. Maybe 4000 in the stadium, but some 700 on one end supporting Rayo and a strong 200-man contingent from Pontevedra supporting their side. That was a high impact on the ambience in the stadium of some 15,000 capacity. Had a great time at that match, must say, in one of Madrid's classic working class neighbourhoods. Rayo is now in 2B, fighting for a playoff spot to promote to 2nd division.

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

Just want to chip in on the chanting question. I do not agree that a few hundred in a stadium will not make a difference. It definitely does. I have seen thirty guys at Camp Nou get the whole stadium going on a chant, so it depends on other factors, but a song or chant that is well known by fans will get picked up after a small group begins it. More complex ones will not, at least not usually.

Was at a Rayo Vallecano game this past weekend, the Madrid team that was once in top flight Spain. Maybe 4000 in the stadium, but some 700 on one end supporting Rayo and a strong 200-man contingent from Pontevedra supporting their side. That was a high impact on the ambience in the stadium of some 15,000 capacity. Had a great time at that match, must say, in one of Madrid's classic working class neighbourhoods. Rayo is now in 2B, fighting for a playoff spot to promote to 2nd division.

Thanks for that confirmation Jeffrey. As G-L said, we are going to start small and build from there. Your 30 guys at Nou Camp is a classic example. If we come up with a Toronto anthem, and a couple of simple unique Toronto chants that can be taught to general public, we can set the foundation to build towards the European stadium experience.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by RealGooner

Thanks for that confirmation Jeffrey. As G-L said, we are going to start small and build from there. Your 30 guys at Nou Camp is a classic example. If we come up with a Toronto anthem, and a couple of simple unique Toronto chants that can be taught to general public, we can set the foundation to build towards the European stadium experience.

Just want to say, that what really works at Camp Nou now is that the classic radical supporters, the Boixos Nois, who had all the privileges in spite of being extreme right skin heads, are now out. And what has happened is that small nuclei of other groups, more tempered politically, have sprouted up all over the stadium, but especially up high (which is as high as you get in Europe) and down low around Gol Sud. Perhaps once the supposed official group was ejected for being a bunch of fascists, the rest of the stadium could finally play a role instead of just following along.

I don't know what this means, but I think that sometimes just one group is not a good thing. An example is when you do those amazing echo chants at stadiums, led by groups on opposite sides. Very entertaining.

The real litmus test for a full stadium being into their team is not singing or chanting though, it is doing the wave, but self-generated, not by a mascot or cheer leader. A spontaneous wave when you are knocking your opponent dead is great as it equalizes the class and social divisions a good stadium will inevitably show due to ticket pricing.

[TOareaFan]

quote:Originally posted by RealGooner

I'm not trying to sound hostile to you because I'm not, but I have noticed your consistent opposition to everything stadium related, to the point of defending G-Man's right to hijack the thread started by mlsintoronto. Which was unreasonable IMO.

I am not interpreting your message as hostility towards me....just passion for your own beliefs on these subjects which, IMO, is perfectly fine.

I think, however, your passion (or my lack of clarity) has led you to misinterpret or exagerate some of the things I have written.

As an example, I did not defend G-Man's "hijacking" of any thread. Rather, I opposed the notion that Mlstoronto should only hear/see thoughts that were 100% positive on the team and stadium. I thought/think that to be productive he needed to see/hear some of the challenges that lay ahead of MLSE in establishing their team and managing their stadium.

quote:

You disagree with the stadium, I know

I never disagreed with the concept of a stadium for soccer in Toronto. I felt, and still feel, that the process for selection of location was flawed and have said (enough times to bore people, I am sure) that more could have been done for less if we had just evaluated the costs/benefits of significantly upgrading the sss we built nearly 30 years ago

quote:

, you wanna muzzle the ultras, I know, but you are not gonna stop this no matter how much of a proverbial wet blanket you want to be about this.

Not sure I have ever suggested "muzzling" the ultras. I have suggested that calling the fan group ultras might attract negative press (pretty sure I am not the only one who has suggested that). I am really not trying to be a "wet blanket" I am just expressing my thoughts and trying to bring some realism into the idealistic discussion that seems to ocurr on these things.

I would never question the passion and devotion of the fans...just the number of them relative to the general population and the effect they will have on the atmosphere in a Toronto stadium.

quote:

You really arent going to discourage this by telling us we'll be ineffectual. My mind is really made up now, thanks.

Wasn't trying to discourage you. Just, as I said, bring some realism to idealism. My estimation of the groups' level of passion would have rocked if I thought my words would discourage you. Quite the opposite really. I had hoped that if you saw the "other side" of the discussion, it might give you guys an additional "heads up" on how tough your challenge might be to create the atmosphere you are looking for.

quote:

Since I know the stadium seems to have stuck a raw nerve with you, you now come across to me as somewhat desperate to see this whole thing fail.

Couldn't be farther from the truth. I have posted in other areas on this board that I, and others, strongly hope that the stadium gets done on time and that "this thing" (I presume you mean MLS) succeeds.

I have stated, also, that I think MLS have hired the best architect out there and that they will do the best job possible with the available funds and I have also stated that I expect top level season tickets to cost +/- $1k per year and that I am committed to buying 4 of them. Certainly not the words/deeds of someone cheering for it to fail.

I want this to be a success!! There, said it as clear as day (not this day which is kinda murky but you get the point). That should not stop me from stating, or you and others from listening to, opinions/thoughts that are not 100% rah rah rah. That is the point of discussion. Bob McCowan (yes the soccer hater McCowan) used to say "If we all stood on the same side of the planet it would tip over and we would all fall off"....I think he has a point.

quote:

Are you afraid that if we try to generate a great unique atmosphere to help popularise soccerthis whole stadium project might be vindicated?

I am not afraid of anything (well, to be honest, since Hitcock's "The Birds" our feathered friends give me a bit of a shiver). In fact, I have stated several times that I HOPE</u> I am wrong. Again, it should not stop me from saying what I believe.

Keep on singing, keep on chanting and keep on waiving flags (personally I draw the line at things that have the potential for endangering public safety like flares) and maybe, just maybe, Toronto will become known as "North America's Kop".

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by RealGooner

Provide evidence of said ridicule please. As far as I can see the impact and Whitecaps are still going strong. You need to tie your disparate rants together into an argument there bud.

ummmm what has the average attendance at the local pro soccer team in Toronto over the last 10 years?

Like I said, 40 million would have built two soccer stadiums (with real grass I may add) in two proven soccer markets with two soccer owners committed to the game. realmoron.

The only thing desperate is thinking that MLSE will allow flags or banners into the stadium, let alone as G-l suggests setting up a supporters booth to sell Ultra scarves and trinkets.

2500 in a texas high school concrete bowl in October, will make going to Ninan Park seem like a trip to Old Traford.

As a former member of the Manic supporters group, I understand what noise is. And in North America it's not about getting 30 middle aged men to sing 1970 pop hits. It's about clapping and drums. It's the beat. You also need a good team and fans.

Something Toronto hasn't had since the Metro Croatians.

[john tv]

Clapping and drums is a effen farce and so far removed what real fan support is all about.It is all about creativity and let that mind have just about uncontrolled fun.I sometimes wonder what these brainwaves would show when soccer fans do their singing stuff and what real influence this has on the home team.I know very well that the Dutch Nat.Team player thrive on this stuff,since they realize that they are playing for these fans. It is so magic it is beyond facts and figures,its all about bringing out the ultimate very best and more.They all know that this is it!N.A has been for to many years a left brain society and that's why they or we are in love with all that statistical stuff.I really wonder if they are ready for the creative right brain stuff.To be far fetched will soccer be able to change this left brain society.Just a provocative thought.

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by TOareaFan

Keep on singing, keep on chanting and keep on waiving flags (personally I draw the line at things that have the potential for endangering public safety like flares) and maybe, just maybe, Toronto will become known as "North America's Kop".

TOareaFan, thanks for clearing this up. I am glad to know that I was mistaken about your motivations. I do recall you stating that you only wanted meaningless but money-spinning MNT friendlies played in Toronto, a curious statement for sure but I will take your statement of good intention here as the truth.

[RealGooner]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

I don't know what this means, but I think that sometimes just one group is not a good thing. An example is when you do those amazing echo chants at stadiums, led by groups on opposite sides. Very entertaining.

I agree, having several groups is better for keeping the singing going. Maybe we will see several in Toronto, but so far there is just the U Sector. You can't blame them if no-one else steps forward.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

Like I said, 40 million would have built two soccer stadiums (with real grass I may add)

I see you attended the Joey Saputo School of Stadium Finance.