morrison Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 north american crowds are traditionally dull. end of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 quote:Originally posted by morrison north american crowds are traditionally dull. end of. What really grates when you see clips from NA is that hooting. It is disgusting. What is it about Americans, and now copy-cat Canadians, that makes them think that hooting is attractive? It always degrades the sport event seen when you hear it. Constrast that with thousands of fans in a high mountain pass in the Alps pushing the riders in the Tour over the top with their flags and banners and energetic shouts of encouragement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealGooner Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 Careful now Jefrey someone might jump on you for putting down 'traditional' NA methods of cheering on a team. And label you a Euro-poseur to boot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOareaFan Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 quote:Originally posted by RealGooner TOareaFan, thanks for clearing this up. I am glad to know that I was mistaken about your motivations. I do recall you stating that you only wanted meaningless but money-spinning MNT friendlies played in Toronto, a curious statement for sure but I will take your statement of good intention here as the truth. Yes, on that subject you are right. I don't think Canada will ever be the unconditional "home team" for a soccer match in Toronto. Again, that is not me saying it is ok for that to be the case just being realistic. I think we should play all of our friendlies here because the Toronto soccer fan has shown an incredible abiltity to dig deep (way deep) into their savings to pay for matches involving teams (club or national) from the "old" country. Once at those matches, they then cheer for the old country. I think the MNT should cash in on that for friendlies (heck, they play all their friendlies away now anyway so why not play those "away" matches in Toronto) but stay away from here and look for places where the fans are unconditionally behind them for games that matter.....those places, in my mind, are likely to be places like Edmonton, Winnipeg, Halifax and, if the facility is good enough, St. John's. Again, I think you have taken one of my "realism" comments and read into it some anti-MNT sentiment when, really, I was suggesting something that I think is actually in the best interest of the MNT. Here is an example, I guess from your nickname you are an Arsenal fan. When Inter Toronto starts playing, I presume, you will also become a fan of theirs....likely one of their more passionate and loyal fans. If they have a friendly against Arsenal, I would bet your "old loyalties" would kick in and you would cheer for Arsenal and against Inter Toronto. That is not a criticism just a likely senario. I also think criticizing you for that would be harsh. You would simply being "suspending" your support for Inter TO for one day because of who you are playing. That is what happens every time Canada plays a match here in Toronto. There are hundreds of thousands of fans here who are "(insert country of origin)" - Canadians who would chear for Canada except when they play the country of their origin. So, when that country comes they go to the match and cheer for the old country. The problem is, that we tend to only go to those games where our particular old country is playing. If Canada played Jamaica (as an example) in 20,000 seat stadium and 5,000 Jamaican-Canadians went and cheered for Jamaica while 15,000 mixed-Canadians (ie all the other ethnic groups including Canadian-Canadians) went and cheered for Canada, not only would the 15,000 drown out the 5,000....it would probably be one hell of an atmosphere. What typically happened, though, was that the 5,000 Jamaican-Canadians would show up, cheer for Jamaica and the 2,500 other-Canadians who show up sit on their hands and wonder why no one is cheering for Canada. If you can change that well done. This not what I hope for it is just what I have observed over more than 30 years of watching the game in this city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 quote:Originally posted by RealGooner Careful now Jefrey someone might jump on you for putting down 'traditional' NA methods of cheering on a team. And label you a Euro-poseur to boot. Hooting is not traditional in North America, in sport it is in fact rather recent. And if anything it is derived directly from the ambiences of popular folk music and dancing coming from parts of Europe. The Hee-Haw of country also comes from such sources. T.he first and only time I was encouraged to hoot was when we did square dancing at high school (which I have not forgotten by the way). I have always thought that hooting was part of white trash culture that had no endearing qualities (unlike marrying a cousin for example, which I am not against). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealGooner Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S. Hooting is not traditional in North America, in sport it is in fact rather recent. And if anything it is derived directly from the ambiences of popular folk music and dancing coming from parts of Europe. The Hee-Haw of country also comes from such sources. T.he first and only time I was encouraged to hoot was when we did square dancing at high school (which I have not forgotten by the way). Perhaps this phenomenon might be an offshoot of the Nascarization of America...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S. unlike marrying a cousin for example, which I am not against. [:0] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Man Posted February 17, 2006 Author Share Posted February 17, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Rudi I see you attended the Joey Saputo School of Stadium Finance. Actually you've missed the point. Those stadiums are going to get built without the welfare money. Had those two projects gotten the injection of funds that MSLE was given to buy into "soccer" those stadiums would be a slam dunk and maybe not just a open concrete bowl with plastic grass. Toronto as the North American Kop. LOL. I can't wait till MLSE is trying to fill 15000 empty seats and has a "Gay Pride Day". I can see the slogan now "Come play with our Ultra's Balls" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franky Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 As far as i remember, didn't Joey take his balls and went home for a season, TURNED HIS BACK on the Mont-Royale faithful, then he sold the team to the Ionaian Group, pffff lol!!!!!. team was on life support until joey came back to the rescue to whatever was left over. Also, i do recall the L'Impact played in that Ping-Pong league (NPSL) and from i recall, guesstimate??? 2,000 flies in the Molson Centre (it holds 21,000???) By the way, G-Man, i talk to a few friends/cousins in St.Leo & RDP and asked them about L'Impact and they say that tickets can be found for free (very easily) or discounted prices. The only true proven soccer market that has always remained strong for decades (even when they were on death's doorstep) with all due respect is Vancouver, without any doubt. Don't put Montreal into that category because for any dismal season L'Impact have had, 1500-3000 was a norm during those certain times. The 86ers/Whitecaps got 3,000 for monsoon rainstorm. Talk about Life time supporters!! "YOU ONLY SING WHEN YOU ARE WINNING!!!!" "YOU ONLY SING WHEN YOU ARE WINNING!!!!" "YOU ONLY SING WHEN YOU ARE WINNING!!!!" "YOU ONLY SING WHEN YOU ARE WINNING!!!!" "YOU ONLY SING WHEN YOU ARE WINNING!!!!" btw, you must have that weekend booked by now. you go girl.[:X] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayWay Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 quote:Originally posted by RealGooner And your misinterpretation of our statements is even sillier. Did you even read what you are quoting from us? All we said is that we love the loud European/Latin American chanting drumming and singing, and offered reasons why chants and songs don't break out at North American sports games (piped commentary and music). General crowd noise happens EVERYWHERE, but chants and songs will be unique to North American soccer when it catches on here. Your point about singing at European hockey games is completely irrelevant. Saying that we prefer one way of support isn't necessarily disparaging of any other methods. Its choice man, some of us Canadians prefer the European fan way, get over it. Yes, I read it. I’ve also read the multiple other posts he’s made on the very same topic, the one’s he seems to post at least once a week. The question of what constitutes the difference in sporting culture between North America and Europe is a valid one. But when it’s posed ad nauseam, like it has been by John, and with the seeming air of snobbishness that he (whether deliberately or not) tends to write with when touching on it, it gets old quickly. It’s not just a question of support. His posts extend to the very legitimacy of North American sports, period. In a thread on the general forum, he wondered aloud whether Europeans have more of an appreciation for athletic ability than do North Americans, because North Americans enjoy baseball, and the rest of the world doesn’t, as evidenced (apparently) by the fact the IOC has rejected baseball and booted it out of the summer games. At some point you have to just accept that the two societies are different and thus have different tastes and different behavioral patterns. John can’t do this. His insistence on bringing this topic up again and again smacks of someone who refuses to accept that the uncivilized North Americans cannot, and will not, adapt to the superior European culture. The rationalizations he comes up with (and I use his point on commentary as an example) suggest that this is the case to. Instead of just accepting the differences, he pulls whatever cockamamie explanations he can out of no where to try and ease his mind. I view efforts to push European sporting culture on Canada the same way I do with American sporting culture (or any type of culture, for that matter). Like most Canadians, I don’t want to see this country become a United States clone. But nor do I want to see it become a European clone either. I like Hockey and Football (the former to a much greater degree, mind you). They have a long and rich history in this country. And while I prefer soccer and would love to see its popularity grow on this side the pond, I don’t want to see the former two pushed to the wayside just because they’re not European and thus deemed inferior by someone who’s been to a few European derbies in his life. Again, it’s not just a question of support. Despite your presumptuous assertion that I prefer North American sporting culture, I actually, like you, prefer European modes of support. That’s why I’ve been an active member of the Ultras for the past five years. Why else would I drag myself to that dump known as Centennial on a weekly basis if I didn’t enjoy European style singing and support? But my feeling is that this goes beyond support and instead is a question of North American sporting preference as a whole. quote: Its choice man […] get over it. Right, so why can’t John do the same? By the way, my point about singing and its presense at other European sporting events aside from soccer was not irrelevant. His post presented the cultural divide (singing as such) as being between sports. If he wants to claim that the excessive commentary that is part of these sports hinders the development of more singing, then I’ll point out that singing does exist in these sports, just not in North America. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayWay Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 quote:I really wonder if they are ready for the creative right brain stuff. See? How am I not supposed to be offended by this? I like baseball, so I guess I'm just not able to appreciate creativity the way Europeans can? Huh??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayWay Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 quote:Originally posted by john tv Clapping and drums is a effen farce and so far removed what real fan support is all about.It is all about creativity and let that mind have just about uncontrolled fun.I sometimes wonder what these brainwaves would show when soccer fans do their singing stuff and what real influence this has on the home team.I know very well that the Dutch Nat.Team player thrive on this stuff,since they realize that they are playing for these fans. It is so magic it is beyond facts and figures,its all about bringing out the ultimate very best and more.They all know that this is it!N.A has been for to many years a left brain society and that's why they or we are in love with all that statistical stuff.I really wonder if they are ready for the creative right brain stuff.To be far fetched will soccer be able to change this left brain society.Just a provocative thought. I thought support was about driving your team forward? What difference does it make what kind of support it is, or how creative it is, as long as it acomplishes its task of motivating the team? Do you think soccer players care how long, or how complex a song is? They're too busy doing the actual playing. They don't have time to pay attention to the clever lyrics the fans come up with. John, have you read Brilliant Orange? There's a passage in that book that is relevant to this discussion. It involves a Dutchman observing the behaviour of English fans before an international game. The topic of discussion is the differences between the English and the Dutch in terms of support. The Dutchman reveals to the author how very regretful he is that his fellow Dutch supporters can not garner the same passion that the English can. Sure, the Dutch are colourful, and they come up with neat little way of making their presense in the stadium known. But as the Dutchman says, at the end of the day, win or lose, these fans go home happy. For the Dutch, it's more a matter of having a good time, then it is a matter of football. The Dutch don't have the passion for the game that the English do. When they sing, their efforts are not tied up in notions of life or death in terms of win or lose like it is for the English. I think it's an important point to consider. At the end of the day, what really matters is passion. This is what separates great fans from good fans. The chant can be as complex or as bland and boring as you want, but if the fans singing the boring chant really care, while the fans singing the complex song are just doing it for a laugh, then who, really, are the better fans? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayWay Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 quote:Originally posted by G-Man Actually you've missed the point. Those stadiums are going to get built without the welfare money. Had those two projects gotten the injection of funds that MSLE was given to buy into "soccer" those stadiums would be a slam dunk and maybe not just a open concrete bowl with plastic grass. Toronto as the North American Kop. LOL. I can't wait till MLSE is trying to fill 15000 empty seats and has a "Gay Pride Day". I can see the slogan now "Come play with our Ultra's Balls" Right, so what did we learn today? a) G-Man can't wait until Gay Pride Day. and When not posting on the V's, G-Man has balls on the mind. Alright, see you on Monday, class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john tv Posted February 17, 2006 Share Posted February 17, 2006 quote:Originally posted by JayWay I thought support was about driving your team forward? What difference does it make what kind of support it is, or how creative it is, as long as it acomplishes its task of motivating the team? Do you think soccer players care how long, or how complex a song is? They're too busy doing the actual playing. They don't have time to pay attention to the clever lyrics the fans come up with. John, have you read Brilliant Orange? There's a passage in that book that is relevant to this discussion. It involves a Dutchman observing the behaviour of English fans before an international game. The topic of discussion is the differences between the English and the Dutch in terms of support. The Dutchman reveals to the author how very regretful he is that his fellow Dutch supporters can not garner the same passion that the English can. Sure, the Dutch are colourful, and they come up with neat little way of making their presense in the stadium known. But as the Dutchman says, at the end of the day, win or lose, these fans go home happy. For the Dutch, it's more a matter of having a good time, then it is a matter of football. The Dutch don't have the passion for the game that the English do. When they sing, their efforts are not tied up in notions of life or death in terms of win or lose like it is for the English. I think it's an important point to consider. At the end of the day, what really matters is passion. This is what separates great fans from good fans. The chant can be as complex or as bland and boring as you want, but if the fans singing the boring chant really care, while the fans singing the complex song are just doing it for a laugh, then who, really, are the better fans? I have been in England and attended some games.I found little difference between the two. In fact I thought that the Dutch songs made more sense to me but that was based upon tradition.I always thought that the Dutch fans are amazing and very creative.They come to party at a game and if they can help the team with this amazing fun weel that is even better. I know very well that Dutch players thrive on this support.It is undeed such a different world over here. i have been a season ticket holder at the Leafs and this fan thing is orchestrated by the club,through the big screen t.v and announcements. fans only sort of sing go leafs go,that's it. I wonder so many times as to what would happen if they wpould sing songs. But again i don't know if the nature of the game would allow this.Fans at a hockey game are season ticket holders who for the most time don't go,it's to expensive. so what you see are not true fans but friends etc of the season t. holdere. so these people would not know how to react anyway.Tickets are so expensive.When I watch the MLS games I am very annoyed by the fan support which seem to interfere with the game.These horns and screeming are totally out of sinc and make no sense.I truly believe that if we can get this song or songs going people will much more entertained and just out there singing along is an amazing feeling and extremely motivating for everybody.I guess this singing stuff is probaly a right brain thing anyway,so are we ready for this overhere.I believe that there are two totally different fan worlds and again it seems that in N.a statistics play a very big aprt of the game,while it seems in the rest of the world the emphasis is more related to the fluency of the game which in turn will allow this to happen. It is indeed revealing that around the 1900 Canadian soccer teams were supported by fans who did all the singing and this was started when they went by train to the opponents field.It was this real fan support that we seem to be looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Man Posted February 18, 2006 Author Share Posted February 18, 2006 quote:Originally posted by JayWay Right, so what did we learn today? a) G-Man can't wait until Gay Pride Day. and When not posting on the V's, G-Man has balls on the mind. Alright, see you on Monday, class. Great Idea. I'm going to start recruiting guys off various gay forums to start a supporters group for MLSE. I'll promise them a section of there own where they can come as they are and party like it's Rio. They could have a big brass band that plays nothing but the best of the Village Peoeple. Starting right now. And when I have 45 signed up I'll arrange a meeting with MLStoronto guy. We'll call the group-- The Sodomites United Crew. ANd our main banner will read "Take one for the Team" I hope there's not to many homophobes out there. After al soccer is the world's game. Unlike Hockey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted February 18, 2006 Share Posted February 18, 2006 quote:Originally posted by G-Man Actually you've missed the point. Those stadiums are going to get built without the welfare money. Had those two projects gotten the injection of funds that MSLE was given to buy into "soccer" those stadiums would be a slam dunk and maybe not just a open concrete bowl with plastic grass. So it's ok for the government to fund stadia in other cities, as long as those cities do not include Toronto? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RealGooner Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Rudi So it's ok for the government to fund stadia in other cities, as long as those cities do not include Toronto? Yep, thats it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Man Posted February 19, 2006 Author Share Posted February 19, 2006 quote:Originally posted by Rudi So it's ok for the government to fund stadia in other cities, as long as those cities do not include Toronto? I think there should be a local group willing to put a large chunk of the final cost that a stadium would cost. Say 70%. I sure most other industries would die for such a sweet building cost deal. Especially if the deal basically calls for any profit from the running of the stadiums and teams using said stadium remians with that local interest and any loses over 250K a year is picked up by the taxpayer. I also think the CSA should be fair with the money it collects from amatuer players all across the country by dealing out that money so that all parts of the country has access to National team games in their region. Back to the Ultras naming... Something dangerous. Something poltical in the great tradition of Italian Ultra's, something that will piss off the American media covering the league. Something that will bring attention to the sport and the supporters group. "Hammas" or we could water it down "El Cracker Jihad". A huge flag with a picture of Yasser Arafat or Gerry Adams on it could be brought out. I know the gay supporter group I'm in the process of forming is raising money right now to get one with Eric Estrada on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted February 19, 2006 Share Posted February 19, 2006 quote:I think there should be a local group willing to put a large chunk of the final cost that a stadium would cost. Say 70%. I sure most other industries would die for such a sweet building cost deal. The government funding for the stadium was aproved well before MLSE ever got involved, yet where were you then to consistently decry the status of a 'welfare' stadium? What MLSE is putting into the Toronto stadium ($10.5 million) is almost equal to what Saputo is putting into his ($13 million). After the project is finished, it will almost be certain that MLSE's contribution towards the Toronto stadium will be much higher, as they are on the hook for all cost overruns. quote:Especially if the deal basically calls for any profit from the running of the stadiums and teams using said stadium remians with that local interest and any loses over 250K a year is picked up by the taxpayer. Actually, the city and MLSE are splitting the profits. And there will definitely be profits, as MLSE does not manage money-losing buildings. quote:I also think the CSA should be fair with the money it collects from amatuer players all across the country by dealing out that money so that all parts of the country has access to National team games in their region. What does this have to do with anything? quote:I know the gay supporter group I'm in the process of forming is raising money right now to get one with Eric Estrada on it. Well at least we can finally lay to rest the guessing about what the 'G' in 'G-Man' stands for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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