Why all the fuss? Why do we want a stadium?

[john tv]

quote:Originally posted by trueviking

holy condescending...no matter how much you say players do or should love it, the fact is we have three plastic pitch fields in eastern canada, none of which have hosted anything above women's soccer.

your argument is completely defeated, whether you like plastic or not, by the fact that the last international games in canada were played on a brutal community field in kingston, instead of one of the three plastic field stadia in major cities just down the road....

you can make the argument over and over that you personally believe plastic is better, but until international teams agree to play on it regularily (not practice) then it is pointless to build it.

what is the difference if we have 3 stadia with plastic grass that nobody will play on...or fourfields that nobody will play on.

[john tv]

I know and have read many times that the FIFA ruled against playing at the Skydome or I suppose we may resubmit under the Rogers center.I still don't know why this thing is no good. I had a great time there last year and having been at the Arena in Amsterdam several times including the opening,this thing is a lot better.Is it size or turf or what.I do know that if we were to play some u20 stuff this would be great and anyway shoot me down,but you can still not convince me that this is not workable.

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by john tv

I know and have read many times that the FIFA ruled against playing at the Skydome or I suppose we may resubmit under the Rogers center.I still don't know why this thing is no good. I had a great time there last year and having been at the Arena in Amsterdam several times including the opening,this thing is a lot better.Is it size or turf or what.I do know that if we were to play some u20 stuff this would be great and anyway shoot me down,but you can still not convince me that this is not workable.

I have seen no proof of this except for the stadium snobs on this site who refuse to let go of the dream on a SSS in TO, if someone does know of a link please post it.

next we'll be told that Olympic Stadium has been banned by FIFA as well.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by HamiltonSteelers

Toronto would likely need/use one, but I'm not exactly convinced that the ground has to be right downtown. It would be nice, but it isn't necessary. Most MLS grounds that are being built (or planned) are not in the downtown areas (Columbus, MetroStars, LA, SLC, Chicago, Dallas). Build the new ground in Vaughan, Mississauga, Brampton. It doesn't matter to me, as long as I can reasonably travel to the odd nat'l team game within an hour's drive (of Hamilton) would be nice.

The thing with MLS stadiums is that they still want to stay close or even move closer to their target markets. The Metrostars stadium in Harrison, NJ will actually put the team closer to NYC. Downtown land is expensive but people would want facilities downtown so they wouldn't have to go out of their way to reach them.

Nothing it seems will come out of the Toronto in terms of a stadium. Toronto has proven that it can be it's own worst enemy.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

I have seen no proof of this except for the stadium snobs on this site who refuse to let go of the dream on a SSS in TO, if someone does know of a link please post it.

As much as G-Man talks crap, this is very true.

I've seen nothing where FIFA has completely 'ruled out' SkyDome as a soccer facility, if that were the case, why would there be annual high-profile exhoibition matches played there?

On the flip side, FIFA has expressed a desire for Toronto to get a smaller SSS, as a legacy from the '07 WYC. It's hard to hard that an SSS (or a stadium that is more soccer friendly than the Dome) would be nothing but beneficial to soccer in Toronto, and this is probably what FIFA would like to see happen.

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

As much as G-Man talks crap, this is very true.

I've seen nothing where FIFA has completely 'ruled out' SkyDome as a soccer facility, if that were the case, why would there be annual high-profile exhoibition matches played there?

On the flip side, FIFA has expressed a desire for Toronto to get a smaller SSS, as a legacy from the '07 WYC. It's hard to hard that an SSS (or a stadium that is more soccer friendly than the Dome) would be nothing but beneficial to soccer in Toronto, and this is probably what FIFA would like to see happen.

Talk crap? Cause I don't think we need to build new stadia for a 3 week tournament?

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

Talk crap? Cause I don't think we need to build new stadia for a 3 week tournament?

I was referring to everything else you write.

[Daniel]

G-Man, what is your agenda? You're on a SOCCER supporter's forum and time and time again you say you don't want new SSS in Canada. This doesn't seem like a soccer supporter's POV.

[Guest HamiltonSteelers]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

The thing with MLS stadiums is that they still want to stay close or even move closer to their target markets. The Metrostars stadium in Harrison, NJ will actually put the team closer to NYC. Downtown land is expensive but people would want facilities downtown so they wouldn't have to go out of their way to reach them.

The MLS can dream, but that won't be the case, as seen by the current development of new stadia built. Economically speaking, this would be a good move if in 10 years, MLS is popular enough to actually compete with MLB, NFL. But paying major league money for major league land in a slightly-less-than major league sport doesn't make current sense. If FC Dallas, LA Galaxy and MetroStars are filling up their grounds at a major league price, then they can talk about building a new stadium that's bigger and closer to the downtown.

Otherwise, it'll be MLS Missisauga, just like MLS Harrison, MLS Carson and MLS Fresno, and I do not see anything wrong with that.

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by Daniel

G-Man, what is your agenda? You're on a SOCCER supporter's forum and time and time again you say you don't want new SSS in Canada. This doesn't seem like a soccer supporter's POV.

My agenda is simple. Being realistic.

From about 1959, various pro leagues have sprung up in Canada/America who have come and gone like a short summer. And with every new attempt, a new wrinkle was added to suggest that this time would be the time where North Americans would embrace the game like they do in the old country.

Except, one thing will always the remain the same, North Americans have choice. And they have established pro leagues and with great traditions that they embrace.

And sadly Soccer isn't one of them.

And instead of living with that reality and carving our a niche market where the game can be played and enjoyed, we continue this pathetic dream of dating the cute girl who won't give us the time of day.

The SSS is just another lame attempt to get her attention. But it's an expensive attempt. And it will not guarantee long term survival.

I'll use Montreal as an example. During the late 50's and early 60's Cantalia Montreal used to draw close to 13 000 at the old Montreal Royals baseball park. At the same time Toronto United with Sir Stanley Matthews in the line up was drawing close to 10,000. Then the league folded.

Fast forward to the late 60's. The 67 Expo Tournament at the Autostade drew close to

25 000 a game.

Montreal went through various pro teams in the 70's. Olympic Castors…

Then the Manic hit. HUGE. Regular season crowds of 23,000, play-off crowds of 60,000. Big European teams coming to town to play. The Manic were going to be the Liverpool of North America, complete with the loudest crowds outside the Kop.

The future looked bright. Then the loses came out. 2 million a year. And the team was revamped and started to lose on the field and crowds went down to get this "10,000"

Now, Montreal has the next future “franchise” of North America. Complete with two seasons of 8K a game. And instead of glowing in that success and working with an established fan base, and more importantly a sound bottom line, the owner now wants to spend 15 million (call me if it gets built for anything under 30 million) to attract another 3-4 thousand a game.

The market place has not changed since 1959. It will not embrace soccer as it does hockey, baseball, football, indoor football, nascar, college sports, golf, curling, basketball, indoor waffle ball or tennis.

Lets live within our means.

That's why the Impact has worked for two years. And when the team starts it’s enviable downward performance on the field, hopefully the owners won’t have to turn to the public purse to bail them out again when fans start to bail. Winning comes in cycles.

(Notice a common thread for Montreal- a good crowd max's out at about 10K and a bad season bottoms out at about 2k)

Sometimes, settling for screwing the fat chick , is better than jerking off over the skinny blonde with the big hooters (SSS). Even if you dofind her drunk one night, she'll always go back to the jerky hockey player.

AND...Lets not forget that Southhampton build a new stadium that was going to give them the revenue to become an European force. 3 years later they get to play against Cardiff and Wigan.

[youllneverwalkalone]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

Sometimes, settling for screwing the fat chick , is better than jerking off over the skinny blonde with the big hooters (SSS). Even if you dofind her drunk one night, she'll always go back to the jerky hockey player.

If Saputo spends 30m, he would need to generate about $1,500,000 a year in after tax cash flow, assuming a reasonable discount rate of 5% What's so crazy about that given an average attendance of 8,000? Even with only 11 home dates, that seems as doable as a...

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

If Saputo spends 30m, he would need to generate about $1,500,000 a year in after tax cash flow, assuming a reasonable discount rate of 5% What's so crazy about that given an average attendance of 8,000? Even with only 11 home dates, that seems as doable as a...

Considering this is a team that over the course of the last 7 years have averaged more in the relm of 4k a year than 10k. Montreal hates a loser and loves a winner.

Like I said.

Others have done it, lost a ton, got a t-shirt. But hey... maybe a SSS is the missing key to making joe canada turning out in droves.

time will tell.

[canso]

"Ugly Girls Need Love Too"

How's that for a USL marketing slogan?

[Robert]

Okay ladies, you too G-Man, getting back to the original question of, "Why all the fuss? Why do we want a stadium?" It is obvious the soccer fans in Toronto want a big new Shiney Soccer Specific Stadium Shrine. Who doesn't? The thing is, there aren't enough of soccer fans in Toronto to justify the construction of one. A bigger stadium should only be built if game after game, fans are turned away at the ticket-window because the joint's sold-out again. From all the reports that I have seen, this does not seem to be a problem Toronto suffers from. When was the last time a Lynx fan was dissapointed because he couldn't get a ticket? If MLSE talks about buying an MLS team, why don't they show us all how serious they are by building a stadium that meets the MLS standards. They have had ample opportunities to contribute to projects at Varsity and York Universities. Yeah, you can argue that Canadian governments can not waste taxpayer money on pro-sports teams, but if the York U project would have gone ahead, wouldn't the prospective MLSE MLS team have wound up playing there anyways two or three years down the road? When the Argos pulled out, MLSE could have stepped to the plate and said, "Here's $20 or $30 mil." That might have done a lot of P.R. for the future. Instead, my guess is that between now and the next MLS expansion they will follow the CSA example of crying wolf and blame everyone else for bailing on them. Typical of Canadian soccer. Kerfoots and Saputos excluded, of course.

[RealGooner]

<<When was the last time a Lynx fan was dissapointed because he couldn't get a ticket?>>

Robert, When was the last time a Lynx fan was disappointed because the Lynx lost the USL championship game? Or got knocked out of the playoffs? Lynx fans scream themselves hoarse every year supporting a team that refuses to be competitive or even lose with dignity. Toronto can easily fill a 20000 seat SSS because it fills 52000 seat Rogers centre for *QUALITY* soccer. If you really dont want an SSS in Toronto then please just come out and say so like Doyle G, but stop hiding behind this 'Lynx have poor support' argument. Its a complete red herring and is disproven by the facts, if you care to look at them.

[Kelly]

quote:Originally posted by canso

"Ugly Girls Need Love Too"

How's that for a USL marketing slogan?

It'd work for the W-league.

[RealGooner]

<<3 years later they get to play against Cardiff and Wigan.>>

Minor correction G-Man: Wigan Athletic are in the Premiership next year, lol

[Cheeta]

quote:Originally posted by canso

"Ugly Girls Need Love Too"

How's that for a USL marketing slogan?

Fat chicks and mopeds. Great fun to ride until your friends catch you doing it.

(Or so I've heard).

[Cheeta]

And getting back to the topic in question..

I'm not quite sure that you can use the Lynx as the defining guage of footie support in Toronto the Good. In as much for the same reasons that you cannot use the one-off speciel events which are touring pre-season European football giants.

Similiar but different when we're discussing MLS. Similiar in that they're both football sport/entertainment ventures. But different in that they're certainly not Div. 1 football. That is to say the Lynx.

Sir Winston Churchill said there are three types of lies. Lies. Damned lies. And statistics.

And it's my 2nd favorate quote because it reminds me to look around and not let people "cherry pick" the facts for their arguments. That in particular, statistical data taken out of context is useless.

I went into Starbucks Sunday, bought three drinks and walked away $22 poorer. This from a guy who takes his lunch kit to work. Starbucks, it could be argued, is a perfect example of what proper marketing, proper location and proper atmosphere can do to sell a product to people who'd otherwise rather walk out of Tim's with their three drinks and a $6 bill.

Are Starbucks and Tim's the same product? Both are selling coffee? But it's not quite the same thing is it?

MLS Toronto, whoever that might be, I don't think is too concearned about appealing to whatever it is that's attracting Lynx fans out to the games. They're looking beyond that.

Because forget Tim's Iced Cap., once you've had our frapachino there'll be no going back.

Just need a suitable building to sell it out of.

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by RealGooner

<<3 years later they get to play against Cardiff and Wigan.>>

Minor correction G-Man: Wigan Athletic are in the Premiership next year, lol

Hell has frozen over and Wigan is in the show. I stand rightfully corrected.

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by Cheeta

And getting back to the topic in question..

I'm not quite sure that you can use the Lynx as the defining guage of footie support in Toronto the Good. In as much for the same reasons that you cannot use the one-off speciel events which are touring pre-season European football giants.

Similiar but different when we're discussing MLS. Similiar in that they're both football sport/entertainment ventures. But different in that they're certainly not Div. 1 football. That is to say the Lynx.

Sir Winston Churchill said there are three types of lies. Lies. Damned lies. And statistics.

And it's my 2nd favorate quote because it reminds me to look around and not let people "cherry pick" the facts for their arguments. That in particular, statistical data taken out of context is useless.

I went into Starbucks Sunday, bought three drinks and walked away $22 poorer. This from a guy who takes his lunch kit to work. Starbucks, it could be argued, is a perfect example of what proper marketing, proper location and proper atmosphere can do to sell a product to people who'd otherwise rather walk out of Tim's with their three drinks and a $6 bill.

Are Starbucks and Tim's the same product? Both are selling coffee? But it's not quite the same thing is it?

MLS Toronto, whoever that might be, I don't think is too concearned about appealing to whatever it is that's attracting Lynx fans out to the games. They're looking beyond that.

Because forget Tim's Iced Cap., once you've had our frapachino there'll be no going back.

Just need a suitable building to sell it out of.

Jezus Cheeta, you Yankee dog, you open with that you want to talk about the topic in question and then you proceed with a discussion about your expensive and poor taste in coffee. You say both companies sell coffee. Well, I don't know what that zhit is that Starbucks sells, but it ain't coffee. Personally, I buy a pound of fresh roasted beans each week for about $14 per pound, which gives me a hell of alot more than three cup of whatever it is your buying. Maybe that's why I don't have to carry around a lunch-kit. However, when I'm on the road I'll have an extra large, black, no sugar cup of Timmy's finest. Non of that Venti Zhit for me, no way.

The only thing I gained from your post that was a little soccer related is the fact that both the MLS and Starbucks are US products, while the Lynx and Timmy Horton are Canadian, eh.

But he, you "just need a suitable building to sell it out of."[?][?][?][?]

[Daniel]

1. You can bang the fat girl and still work on the hottie and masturbate to her. Then, once you actually get in, "so long, tubby". We're banging the fatgirl anyway (Centennial, CCR...).

2. Your 7-year "statistic" is appaling from a mathematic point-of-view. It's like saying "over the course of 50 years, the average Canadian never used a computer" or "over the course of the past 20 years, the average Brit hasn't heard of Harry Potter". Times have changed. The Impact as we know it (non-profit, smartly structured and promoted) have drawn 5k-9k in an ever-increasing pattern. It will eventually putter-out, but it is naive and downright stupid to believe that even with NO advertising and no group sales, the club in 2005 would attract the same 1,000 people they did after the bankrupcy of 2001.

[canso]

"You can bang the fat girl and still work on the hottie and masturbate to her. Then, once you actually get in, "so long, tubby"."

Gotta believe the Frenchmen knows what he's talking about. They're more practical about these things!

[G-Man]

quote:Originally posted by Daniel

1. You can bang the fat girl and still work on the hottie and masturbate to her. Then, once you actually get in, "so long, tubby". We're banging the fatgirl anyway (Centennial, CCR...).

2. Your 7-year "statistic" is appaling from a mathematic point-of-view. It's like saying "over the course of 50 years, the average Canadian never used a computer" or "over the course of the past 20 years, the average Brit hasn't heard of Harry Potter". Times have changed. The Impact as we know it (non-profit, smartly structured and promoted) have drawn 5k-9k in an ever-increasing pattern. It will eventually putter-out, but it is naive and downright stupid to believe that even with NO advertising and no group sales, the club in 2005 would attract the same 1,000 people they did after the bankrupcy of 2001.

Know your history or you're bound to repeat it.

I lived through the Manic days. I also lived through the Expos glory days when the team drew over 2 million a year. The Als are drawing well now for a reason. If they went 2-16.....

Win and Montreal loves you. Lose and Montreal does something else.

These are the glory days for the Impact. My advice: enjoy them while they last and hopefully you come up with a solid biz plan to survive the bad times.

And whatever you do..don't spend 30 million on a place to hang out...

[Robert]

quote:Originally posted by G-Man

Know your history or you're bound to repeat it.

I lived through the Manic days. I also lived through the Expos glory days when the team drew over 2 million a year. The Als are drawing well now for a reason. If they went 2-16.....

Win and Montreal loves you. Lose and Montreal does something else.

These are the glory days for the Impact. My advice: enjoy them while they last and hopefully you come up with a solid biz plan to survive the bad times.

And whatever you do..don't spend 30 million on a place to hang out...

Just think, if there is $30M of disposable cash, what kind of players a Canadian team could buy on the international market. Personally, I think that this would attract far more fans than spending the money on a new stadium. Mr Kerfoot could buy some great young talent and turn the Whitecaps into the USL's flagship team. My advise to Greg would be to take his chequebook to Holland next week, and to sign four or five players at the upcoming WYC. Being Dutch and the second most intelligent soccer individual on these boards, I'd be more than willing to volunteer my services and accompany Mr. Kerfoot on this talent acquiring mission.