Free kick Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Canuck Oranje It is also a Canadian trait to over organize. I have seen soccer in both Brazil and in the Netherlands. I would argue that a quality 12 year old player in Canada will travel more and play more organized games than a 12 year old in either Brazil or the Netherlands. In the Netherlands the attention is clearly on player development and coaching. In Brazil, the kids just play and are selected by professional clubs in a Darwinian way as they begin to draw attention. The big difference happens when a player has the honour of being asked to join one of the prestige clubs. You are bringing to light what I beleive to be a catch 22 in relation to the problems at the grassroots. True, you do not want excessive organization and structure at an early because it inhibits creativity and skill development. And you are also correct IMO that you develop all those great technical skills on your own in an unorganzied environment where you will also develop and need a passion for the game to do so. But here is where you have a catch 22. I believe that the huge success in regaistration numbers in canada and appeal of soccer is because it is excessively organized and structured. Canadian parents ( sadly) want structure and organization for their kids at an early age. Like value the importance or belongin to groups and organizations and see this as some form status symbol and achievement. Given a choice, the parent would rather see their kids go off to some supervised practise with a coach rather than hang out at the mall or in some unsupervised sandlot to kick a ball around. Maybe thats why soccer is so popular since the parent can brag that Junior is playing in so and so club and it alows the kids to conform to a team envirnment. These are all things (conformity, struction, organization and team) that are not conducive to producing strong fundamenals and skills within individual players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alberto Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 I totally agree the only reason why registration is high because its cheaper than baby sitting If you were to calculate the hours to $ it probably be in the range of 6-7$ dollars per hour to play rep or houseleague, yes parents leave the kids with the coach and say bye pick them when practice is over come to the games and complain why they did not play this must stop. I say raise the fees to a $1000. per player you get better coaching, more involment of the SERIUOS parents on club issues, on organization then the structure and development truly follows with money supporting it. I dont have a calculator but it would be intereasting to find out comparing hockey to soccer what the hourly rate is....anyone what to challenge it be my guest! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 If you charged $1,000 per youth per year player in Holland or Brazil, neither would have a national team that would have players drawn from the organized system. Surely you jest about implementing that kind of scheme in Canada that kind of fee? I fought for years in minor soccer to keep rates low. Forget all the games and travel under the age of 12. Let them play with their friends. If you want hire a baby sitter to be the referee, do that. Run a soccer camp with skilled coaches. But keep the rates low. In many countries, some of the best players have come out of the slums of those countries. I don't think we would ever want our sport to be elitist. Then we are sure to drop even further down in the FIFA rankings. Only after 12, seperate them on the basis skill and offer higher levels of training and coaching. But even then, costs would somehow have to be covered through sponsorships and simply being cheap. Also, I have to say that I don't believe their is such a thing as a stereotypical Canadian parent anymore. Cultural backgrounds are all different now. But diversity should be our strength here too. . quote:Originally posted by Alberto I totally agree the only reason why registration is high because its cheaper than baby sitting If you were to calculate the hours to $ it probably be in the range of 6-7$ dollars per hour to play rep or houseleague, yes parents leave the kids with the coach and say bye pick them when practice is over come to the games and complain why they did not play this must stop. I say raise the fees to a $1000. per player you get better coaching, more involment of the SERIUOS parents on club issues, on organization then the structure and development truly follows with money supporting it. I dont have a calculator but it would be intereasting to find out comparing hockey to soccer what the hourly rate is....anyone what to challenge it be my guest! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoyleG Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca Well you could say the same thing about every Canadian soccer league since the NASL's demise. The NASL had its problems, but it was the last time club soccer was marketed close-to-properly in Canada, and even the one-year Calgary Boomers featured attendance numbers that most current A-league teams would salivatate over the prospect of attaining. I think this just reinforces my main point. As for football in Quebec, that is true that the CFL (after initially dying altogether) has had a re-surgence, but then you also have to look at the success of the Impact in that province. People there nowadays seem to have less of a hang-up about "major leagues" then the other major cities in Canada, and I wish the rest of Canada were a bit more like that. If you were to see what was said about the CBL, you would want to re-think your comments. As for the "major league" mentality, Canadians are changing more than you would think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viking Posted April 10, 2004 Share Posted April 10, 2004 Hi this is my first post on here . I'm not a born Canadian but I love football and I would love to see the Canadian national team do something finally. I'm actually quite aware of some Canadian players who play abroad so it's not like I'm coming into the unknown here . What I would like to say is that this country needs a nation wide league if it is to succeed at the international level. There is no way that a national team can go far without a domestic league. I have never seen such a thing. Of course there is the money and sponsorship problem but how about creating 3 leagues/divisions West/Central/East. The top teams would then go to a play-off to play for the Canadian champion. This would be budget wise to some extensions ok. To prevent young players from leaving the league too soon there could be a rule that they have to stay until they turn let's say 23. Which would improve the quality of the league and bring out more talent. Getting also veteran Canadian players back into the league would also be a step forward as they would attract more attandance to the clubs. Hope my post makes some sense and I hope for the best that something gets done and that we can see Canada play at the WC on regular basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted April 11, 2004 Share Posted April 11, 2004 quote:Originally posted by viking Hi this is my first post on here . What I would like to say is that this country needs a nation wide league if it is to succeed at the international level. There is no way that a national team can go far without a domestic league. I have never seen such a thing. Of course there is the money and sponsorship problem but how about creating 3 leagues/divisions West/Central/East. The top teams would then go to a play-off to play for the Canadian champion. This would be budget wise to some extensions ok. To prevent young players from leaving the league too soon there could be a rule that they have to stay until they turn let's say 23. Which would improve the quality of the league and bring out more talent. . The problem with the the type of setup that you are proposing is that it is just not doable in a country like canada. The population and demographics aren't comparable to those countries in Europe. In fact, if you do set up something similar to what you propose, it would be nothing more than just another amateur circuit which in turn accomplishes nothing to produce better players and we already have plenty of amateur circuits all throughout various regions. Absolutely nothing would be acomplished in having small club "A" from "x" region play small club "B" from "Y" region. There are just too few large urban centres in canada with enough consumers to make this kind of circuit economically viable in such a way to retain talent until its ready to be transfered to truly progessional setting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viking Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 Then what can we do because there is no way we can accomplish anything without a pro-league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snake Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 an MLS canadian division. quote:Originally posted by viking Then what can we do because there is no way we can accomplish anything without a pro-league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argh1 Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 quote:Originally posted by snake an MLS canadian division. I , know , I'm a minority of one, but. Unless an MLS Canadian divisision encompasses at least 9 or 10 Canadian cities, it will hurt more than help. Hurt by not giving enough profile to the non so called major market teams. Minimum , we would have to have Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver. But how would this help Calgary, Edmonton, Regina, Winnipeg, Ottawa, Quebec City, pick an Atlantic city, with devoloping pro soccer. Let's not end up in an eggs in one basket senario , with all others being rated 2nd class. One or two , major league (?) teams in Canada in any sport , only help the profile of the sport in those two cities. What , I'm trying to say is, even though A-League has American teams . Allow the Canadian teams in the league to develop , with-out the added pressure of having to measure up to one or two major (?) league teams . One , follower's , of the games' opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 quote:Originally posted by argh1 I , know , I'm a minority of one, but. Unless an MLS Canadian divisision encompasses at least 9 or 10 Canadian cities, it will hurt more than help. Hurt by not giving enough profile to the non so called major market teams. Minimum , we would have to have Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver. But how would this help Calgary, Edmonton, Regina, Winnipeg, Ottawa, Quebec City, pick an Atlantic city, with devoloping pro soccer. Let's not end up in an eggs in one basket senario , with all others being rated 2nd class. One or two , major league (?) teams in Canada in any sport , only help the profile of the sport in those two cities. What , I'm trying to say is, even though A-League has American teams . Allow the Canadian teams in the league to develop , with-out the added pressure of having to measure up to one or two major (?) league teams . One , follower's , of the games' opinion I have to disagree here. There weren't 9-10 canadian teams in the NASL and we did quite well by reaching the 86 WC. I'll bet that you won't find any National teams around the world that draw from 9-10 teams within their own domestic league. Even the more established European sides ( Germany, Spain, Italy, England,Holland etc) will draw players from maybe 2 or three or at most four teams within their domestic leagues for 95% or more of their national team players. The smaller euro nations might have one domestic team that will feed the national team and the rest of the players will come from foriegn clubs. How can we have 9-10 teams in Canada when we don't have 9-10 cities capable of support a professional sports teams. You can stick a team in a place like Quebec city ( 7th largest city in canada) if you want but with only a population of 675,000, How can you call that a professional circuit. Plus where are the facilities??? I can go on and on and on but I would be repeating what I have said many times before. ever wonder why there are no NHL teams in places like Quebec city or Winnipeg? Consider that Rochester is slightly more populated than Calgary, yet Rochester has only minor league clubs in Baseball and Hockey but no pro sports team. Why is that? The best case scenario would be having three MLS clubs in Canada. 9-10 canadain teams would mean that you no longer have a professional league but rather another amateur league. We already have amateur soccer leagues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Crampton Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 Just to note, however, I believe Liverpool's population is only 400,000 and they have two top-flight clubs in that city one of which has 4 European Cups in its trophy cabinet. Sure it was a different era but... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Crampton Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 Just to note, however, I believe Liverpool's population is only 400,000 and they have two top-flight clubs in that city one of which has 4 European Cups in its trophy cabinet. Sure it was a different era but... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ed Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 quote:Originally posted by BHTC Mike Just to note, however, I believe Liverpool's population is only 400,000 and they have two top-flight clubs in that city one of which has 4 European Cups in its trophy cabinet. Sure it was a different era but... He is talking about the North American scene. Hardly worth comparing to the UK where football reigns supreme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ed Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 quote:Originally posted by BHTC Mike Just to note, however, I believe Liverpool's population is only 400,000 and they have two top-flight clubs in that city one of which has 4 European Cups in its trophy cabinet. Sure it was a different era but... He is talking about the North American scene. Hardly worth comparing to the UK where football reigns supreme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 quote:Originally posted by BHTC Mike Just to note, however, I believe Liverpool's population is only 400,000 Interesting!. I don't mean to be argumentative on this topic, But do you have a source for that info? Because I have always thought of Liverpool as one of the three largest Urban areas ( London and Manchester the others) in england. Maybe that figure represents the city proper and not the metropolitain area? I don't know. There are what? over 50 - 60 million people in England and that would make Liverpool awefully small. I'll look it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 quote:Originally posted by BHTC Mike Just to note, however, I believe Liverpool's population is only 400,000 Interesting!. I don't mean to be argumentative on this topic, But do you have a source for that info? Because I have always thought of Liverpool as one of the three largest Urban areas ( London and Manchester the others) in england. Maybe that figure represents the city proper and not the metropolitain area? I don't know. There are what? over 50 - 60 million people in England and that would make Liverpool awefully small. I'll look it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 Came up with this for using a google search.. Its still smaller than I thought Encyclopedia: Liverpool, England For alternate uses of "Liverpool" see Liverpool (disambiguation) ---- Liverpool's skyline, as seen from the River Mersey Liverpool is a city in Merseyside in north west England, on the north side of the Mersey estuary. It is governed by Liverpool City Council, one of six councils within Merseyside. The population of the city in the 2001 census was 439,473, the surrounding Merseyside conurbation has a population of 1,362,026. Liverpool is the second largest export port of the United Kingdom, it still possesses some manufacturing base. The town was traditionally in Lancashire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 Came up with this for using a google search.. Its still smaller than I thought Encyclopedia: Liverpool, England For alternate uses of "Liverpool" see Liverpool (disambiguation) ---- Liverpool's skyline, as seen from the River Mersey Liverpool is a city in Merseyside in north west England, on the north side of the Mersey estuary. It is governed by Liverpool City Council, one of six councils within Merseyside. The population of the city in the 2001 census was 439,473, the surrounding Merseyside conurbation has a population of 1,362,026. Liverpool is the second largest export port of the United Kingdom, it still possesses some manufacturing base. The town was traditionally in Lancashire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Free kick Interesting!. I don't mean to be argumentative on this topic, But do you have a source for that info? Because I have always thought of Liverpool as one of the three largest Urban areas ( London and Manchester the others) in england. Maybe that figure represents the city proper and not the metropolitain area? I don't know. There are what? over 50 - 60 million people in England and that would make Liverpool awefully small. I'll look it up. Birmingham, Leeds and Sheffield are all bigger cities than both Manchester and Liverpool. That is "proper" of course, as England really is urban sprawl and greater metropolitan areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted April 13, 2004 Share Posted April 13, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Free kick Interesting!. I don't mean to be argumentative on this topic, But do you have a source for that info? Because I have always thought of Liverpool as one of the three largest Urban areas ( London and Manchester the others) in england. Maybe that figure represents the city proper and not the metropolitain area? I don't know. There are what? over 50 - 60 million people in England and that would make Liverpool awefully small. I'll look it up. Birmingham, Leeds and Sheffield are all bigger cities than both Manchester and Liverpool. That is "proper" of course, as England really is urban sprawl and greater metropolitan areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJB Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 Simple: politics. As many posters have suggested, the CSA is an unworkable, and unaccountable orginization. The people inlvolved don't care about the good of the game. Case in point is how the women's team can have so much talent, but still play a frustrating, and embarassing brand of soccer. Simply put, the bigs at the CSA need to get their head out of their ass. Why would they want a stadium in Toronto? So it can get snowed on? That plan summed up the CSA. They weren't thinking straight. Leadership is the eternal problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJB Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 Simple: politics. As many posters have suggested, the CSA is an unworkable, and unaccountable orginization. The people inlvolved don't care about the good of the game. Case in point is how the women's team can have so much talent, but still play a frustrating, and embarassing brand of soccer. Simply put, the bigs at the CSA need to get their head out of their ass. Why would they want a stadium in Toronto? So it can get snowed on? That plan summed up the CSA. They weren't thinking straight. Leadership is the eternal problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 quote:Originally posted by RJB Simply put, the bigs at the CSA need to get their head out of their ass. Why would they want a stadium in Toronto? So it can get snowed on? That plan summed up the CSA. They weren't thinking straight. Leadership is the eternal problem. Take a visit to Centenniel "Stadium" (term used very loosely) and you'll understand why the CSA (along with just about everyone else in the whole city) wants a stadium. It's more feasible than kicking the Blue Jays out of the Skydome so we can have grass their full time. There are a lot of things you could criticize the CSA for, but wanting a place to play soccer regularly in the biggest city in Canada isn't one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachesl Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 I think that almost all agree that a good stadium sutiable for international and other soccer matches for Toronto is a priority. But, there are many priorities. The "snow" comment was a bit off-the-wall , even if the climate aspect is one of many considerations. The problem is whether it can be efficiently and realistically done, and whether the CSA can carry it off. I'm sorry, but until there is some clarification about the status and acceptance of artificial turf (the latest failure of FIFA to get its acceptance universally approved by the IFB stands out- maybe we'll see if Montreal and Ottawa can get WCQ's there this fall to get a part of the answer), then building anything less than a grass stadium is a waste (can't the Argos see that there is a trend back to grass in the gridiron world?). The proposals, ones dead and still kicking, over the past month have not been the best for the soccer side, and everything in Toronto seems a bit up in the air. The proposal in Vancouver, especially if the Caps owner can work things out with the 2012 Olympic Organizing Committee, seems a lot more hopeful (as is real grounds for MLS expansion, whether that is good or bad for the overall game in Canada), so maybe the CSA should spend some energy and resources there so that a proper stadium can be built there within the next few years (a 2007 World Youth Cup in Western Canada seems more doable- what has the CSA been doing about this?). Then, maybe the CSA can accelerate looking to helping out with a PROPER stadium in Toronto. For now, they should continue to seek an acceptable stadium in Toronto through governmental and private organizations, but should not act as if the world depends on it. Soccer will survive and thrive even if the national teams have to play elsewhere. Hopefully, things solidly fall into place sooner rather than later in Toronto. Putting your faith (and now all the eggs for the basket) in the Argos organization seems rather foolish without some real evidence of tangibility. Let's not throw good money (even if it's mainly someone else's money) after bad if it can be better spent elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argh1 Posted April 14, 2004 Share Posted April 14, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca Take a visit to Centenniel "Stadium" (term used very loosely) and you'll understand why the CSA (along with just about everyone else in the whole city) wants a stadium. It's more feasible than kicking the Blue Jays out of the Skydome so we can have grass their full time. There are a lot of things you could criticize the CSA for, but wanting a place to play soccer regularly in the biggest city in Canada isn't one of them. See, here's the crux of the problem . Having a stadium in Toronto or an MLS TEAM in Toronto , only helps Toronto. It's the ole can't see the forest for the trees. This is a continuing argument , I agree, but the CSA is a NATIONAL organization. If the GTA SA wants to build a stadium and fund an MLS team fine.It is not up to the NATIONAL BODY to support a stadium or a franchise in one or two locations. How will one or maybe two MLS teams help to develop soccer over the 4 and 1/2 time zones that are Canada? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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