How critical is it to have a foreign coach

[Free kick]

I just posted this on the other forum. I want to see what people think, recall or know on this matter.

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On the car radio this weekend I caught a brief comment from one of the hosts of the international sports report that peaked my curiosity.

Currently our most successfull professionals are playing in the Bundesliga. I found it interesting to hear one of the hosts allude to the fact that we had a German coach as the main reason why our professionals in germany have gained such prominance. Specifically, the host stated that it was Holger Osieck who opened the doors for Canadians in germany through his contacts. For those who have never listened to this show, I would caution against taking the views from these commentators as fact or strongly supported viewpoints. Having listened to these guys in the past, I have found that overall their knowledge of the Cnd MNT's or pro soccer in Canada to be no better than the average poster on these forums. But on the other hand, being in the media, they have greater access to people within the soccer community in Canada. So I don't know. Or, were they just spouting off to try and sound intelligent? which is also possible.

Still its curious that, of all countries, its the Bundesliga that is grooming our future stars. Is this pure coincidence? Then why not the same success in England or Italy to name a few. Also, if having a European coach helps open doors to the big Euro clubs, then how does that affect your viewpoints on the decision to go with a domestic coach, since we all acknowledge the critcal importance of euro develolopmnet to future sucess on the pitch?

To summarize,

1) What impact, if any, did Holger Osieck have on the proffessional careers of our players in Germany?

1b) If your answer to question 1 was affirmative, then how does it affect you views on select yallop as MNT coach rather than say a Dutch, Italian, English, French etc coach

looking forward to your responses.

[SeanKeay]

I think having yallop as a coach is going to help some national team members to get picked up by other clubs. It just wont be in europe. I believe that yallop will be sending alot of his boys to play in the mls. He is very respected in the league and people will help him out. So i have no problem with having yallop as our coach.

With the whole german thing, it could of been holgers doing to get them on clubs. BUT i am pretty sure germany does not have a forign rule which makes it easier for canadians to get into the league. Where as in england, canadians are a forign player and will take up a spot. So i dont think holger did THAT much. And plus well stalteri and deguzman had the natural talent in the first place

[Guest Ed]

I can tell you straight out that the comments alluding to our players having success in Germany were due to Osieck's connections are wishful thinking at best, or more accuratley pure bull****. What nimrod was hosting that show??? If you want to thank somebody for putting Cdns in Germany, thank Owen Hargreaves, Paul Stalteri and Julian de Guzman as they all did it on their own with no help from the CSA. They have now opened the doors for the younger players. Also thank the USA for nearly putting Germany's WC run on the ropes and opening some eyes over there to the potential in North America.

Please name one player in Germany who got there because of Holger Osieck.

And Sean, the Germans have quite restrictive 'foreign rules' (they just don't discriminate amongst the 'foreign' nations, like the twits in the UK) which make it tough for Cdns to make teams. You have to know that a Cdn making a German team has to show MUCH better than his European counterpart.

[Gian-Luca]

I think (though am not 100%) Stalteri in fact signed with Bremen in 1997, which was before Holger was appointed coach.

[The Beaver]

quote:Originally posted by SeanKeay

I think having yallop as a coach is going to help some national team members to get picked up by other clubs. It just wont be in europe. I believe that yallop will be sending alot of his boys to play in the mls. He is very respected in the league and people will help him out. So i have no problem with having yallop as our coach.

Yes, and on that note, I feel it is a very positive step to see more of our lads in the MLS, at least until they can crack top European leagues. I think it would be great to see more and more of our players develop in North America--and the MLS is still better than the A-league--so that we have a core group that can play international games on home turf more easily and more often. It would also give Yallop a chance to hold camps more readily, and it would of course deepen our player pool. The MLS has done well to develop a number of US players, and our own DeRo, too. Getting players over to Germany is excellent, but not everybody will crack a German job right away. Some players mature faster than others. I hope to see many more Canadians in the MLS, especially at the beginning of their careers. The MLS is gaining respect--at least some of their players are--and before long it will be just as easy to jump from the MLS to a good Euro league as it is to jump from Sweden to a good Euro league. (Eventually).

[Gian-Luca]

The problem with the MLS at the moment is that there are so few spots open to Canadians. The folks on the San Jose forum on bigsoccer have indicated that Pusek was waived by San Jose partly because the fancy foreign-roster spots regulations they have down there (apparently he was too old for a Developmental International roster spot or something like that). So MLS expansion of any kind (even if not to Canada) would be good to open up more possibilities for Yallop to plunk Canucks into.

Having said that, if Bartolomeu becomes a Canadian & Cann sticks with the Rapids, we'll have 4 Canucks in that league, the most we've had there in some time. That's not counting Occean & Brillant, who I haven't heard much about yet either way.

[Guest Ed]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

I think (though am not 100%) Stalteri in fact signed with Bremen in 1997, which was before Holger was appointed coach.

That is correct, Oct 1997. A lot of thanks go to Thomas Schaaf for Stalteri's success in the full league as he was Stalteri's coach in the reserves back in 1997 through the spring of 1999 when he became head coach of the full team. Schaaf is known for his loyalty to the club (he has been there since he was 11 years old - coming up through the youth ranks to the pros, then coaching youth and up) and to his players.

[jonovision]

Weren't de Rosario and McKenna also playing in the Bundesliga a while back (was it Cottbus)? What was their connection?

[Gian-Luca]

Well for the moment scratch what I said about Bartolemeu being in the MLS. I went searching for news on Occean (still can't find anything) and found this article - apparently Edgar is about to be cut from the Metrostars to open up a Senior International Spot.

Edgar, LeBlanc dropped from the team

February 22, 2004

MetroFanatic has learned that neither Edgar Bartolomeau and Jacob LeBlanc made the trip to Spain and both will likely be placed on waivers. Bartolomeau's departure opens up a senior international spot, and Bob Bradley is busy looking for potential signings. There is a strong possibility that a forward will be signed soon, but that player should not take up the senior slot.

In draft pick news, Seth Stammler suffered a broken leg thanks to a Kansas City tackle, and will miss about four months. The last pick of the draft, Jeff Parke, has impressed greatly and could be the third man in central defense behind Eddie Pope and Tenywa Bonseu. One player who has not impressed is Johnny David, who has been cut, but could be back as a developmental player.

Rochester midfielder David Hayes, Hearts defender Austin McCann, and two Brazilians, defender Gilberto and midfielder Danilo are the non-roster invitees for La Manga.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Ed

I can tell you straight out that the comments alluding to our players having success in Germany were due to Osieck's connections are wishful thinking at best, or more accuratley pure bull****. What nimrod was hosting that show??? If you want to thank somebody for putting Cdns in Germany, thank Owen Hargreaves, Paul Stalteri and Julian de Guzman as they all did it on their own with no help from the CSA. They have now opened the doors for the younger players. Also thank the USA for nearly putting Germany's WC run on the ropes and opening some eyes over there to the potential in North America.

Please name one player in Germany who got there because of Holger Osieck.

And Sean, the Germans have quite restrictive 'foreign rules' (they just don't discriminate amongst the 'foreign' nations, like the twits in the UK) which make it tough for Cdns to make teams. You have to know that a Cdn making a German team has to show MUCH better than his European counterpart.

Thanks, I was looking forward to your response on this matter. But you kind of skipped over the bit I was zeroeing in on. I was alluding to Paul Stalteri,owen hargreaves and Julian deGuzman specifically. Its really seems like their rise to prominance was more rapid than, say, Canadians who went to the UK. It seems that the guys in England are not getting the same breaks. Look at Brennan, devos, and Pesch for instance. they have to go back or make lateral steps to move a little forward. devos left Dundee Utd and only got interest from a second division club club and only now he is on the cusp of the EPL. Well why not two years ago. Brennan left Notts F who subsequently dropped like stone and only got interest from a similar club like Norwich who is also close to promotion. So why no interest, breaks or fast track from the EPL. Would Stalteri and Deguzman be in the EPL had they chosen the UK route?

[Guest Ed]

De Rosario and Bent were scouted at the Malaysia WYC in 1997 and were signed by a small club in former East Germany FSV Zwickau. Turned out to be a disaster with Bent eventually finding himself with the Colorado Rapids in 1999 I think, and de Rosario returned to the Lynx around then, eventually moving to Richmond then San Jose.

Hargreaves, McKenna and Nsaliwa all went to Germany initially through Thomas Niendorf (Hargreaves to Bayern, the other two to Cottbus). Lars Hirschfeld was also at Cottbus but I am not sure of Niendorf's involvement there (very likely). McKenna stuck with Cottbus and then successfully went to Hearts. Nsaliwa left Cottbus to return to Edmontont to finish high school and then went to Germany on trial with Nurnberg (again through Niendorf). You should subscribe to ISM where all of this was written about

[Guest Ed]

To Tony: You say the guys in England are not getting the same breaks, I say the guys in England are not up to the same level as the three players you mention in Germany.

[Guest Ed]

Also Tony, due to the anti-Canadian stance by the UK, Stalteri and de Guzman could not even get a work permit in the UK, so the question is moot.

[DJT]

quote:Originally posted by Ed

What nimrod was hosting that show???

I think the usual hosts are Lindsay O’Connor and Peter Irvine. Free kick said their knowledge of Canadian soccer is "no better" than that of the average poster on this forum, but from what I've heard I would change that to "strictly less than". Actually, the only soccer they seem to know much about is British soccer.

The comments I posted the other day about a Canadian camp in Manchester came from this same show, but from Frank Yallop, not the hosts (at least that's what my father told me).

[beachesl]

As much as it pains me to agree with Mr. Ed, I think he is 100% right: there is no evidence that Holger had anything to do with the progress of Canadians in the German leagues, and the evidence is in fact to the contrary.

With respect to hiring foreign coaches, I would respectfully suggest that it would be advisable in one of two situations:

1. Where there is not an indigenous coach with sufficient foreign experience as a player and coach to be both credible and knowledgeable to lead a national team. Until Yallop, this was always the situation with Canada. Holger was hired because we needed a foreign coach after the hex debacle of 1997 (and probably before). Lennarduzzi was not an approriate coach not because he was Canadian, but because he didn't have the goods. When Yallop moves on, this may again be the situation, but with the growing amounts of Candain players now overseas, hopefully many of them will turn to coaching. Until (or if) we develop a credible Premier level league in Canada, I don't think we can develop a credible national coach within Canada who has not also played overseas.

2. For political or situational reasons, it is advisable to hire a foreign coach. Just as #1 has never been the case in (for instance) England, #2 has never been the situation in Canada because the public srutiny just isn't here to create a fried-Keegan situation or the internal football disputes and rivalries (association, coaches and players, a la Hoddle) just hasn't required a fresh wind from outside.

Sven Erikson was a good choice in early 2001, but more for the fact that he was a foriegner than for any of his other strengths (the WC match against Brazil showed his tactical and inspirational weaknesses). When Erikson was appointed, the average English fan (and player) was startled, and that was a good thing, as they had grown complacent. Only Erikson could be removed enough from the negative pressures and could transcend the politics to make the changes he did. When I was at a university in the middle east that year, the many English co-workers there were pretty upset that a foreigner had been hired, especially those from the north of blighty("Hell, we can't find an Englishmen to fill the position, what does that say to the world!"). Of course, that changed with the September shellacking of Germany. Sven accomplished only what a foreigner could establish in "1966 and all that" England. For the same reasons, this was the major reason why hiring Scolari in "Golden Generation up their *ss" Portugal was such a good thing: to shake up the team, bring in fresh blood, draw the line in the sand for the veterans (he was great handling Romario), all the time not giving a d*mn about the cauldron of public opinion, especially with Euro 2004 being at home.

We can only live in hope that we develop to have need of reason #2 in Canada in our life times!

[Guest Georgio]

Ed,

Also alot of players have had doors opened by Thomas Neindorff wouldn't you say? Moreso then Holger. How they faired in the leagues was entirly up to there own performance. But the credit for opening doors should be acknowledged, just that the wrong person is getting the acknowlegement on that radio talk show.

[Guest Georgio]

my bad, you already mentioned that

[Guest Ed]

To beachesl, I would say you have missed the boat totally with your post. I would say that Canada does in fact need a foreign coach more so than England for example. Too many old boys with little to offer in terms of technical excellence both on and off the field for my tastes. A fresh wind is EXACTLY what is required, but the CSA has chosen the safe route with Yallop. I wish him success but I am not very confident.

[Grizzly]

I think the crucial factor is economic. While Niendorf and to a lesser extent Holger probably had an influence it is crucial that the German teams were willing to take a chance on unknown Canadian players. There have been surely more Canadians of British or Italian origin with connections to large clubs than German yet players were given a chance with German clubs that they probably would not have had with clubs in the other two countries regardless of who arranged them. This is because the Bundesliga is the poor sister of the big four and has to be more flexible and creative in looking for players. There is a huge difference in the budget of Real Madrid, Barcelona and Man U compared with Bayern and this ratio is also true of the mid-level and lower clubs in the respective leagues (the clubs who generally employ Canadians). With the budgets of clubs in the Premiership or La Liga they are often concerned with plucking already proven talent from strong leagues such as France, Brazil, Argentina or Portugal rather than taking a chance on a talented but unproven player from a non-traditional soccer country. Thus I think it is no surprise that Germany as the poorest of the big four leagues was the first to significantly open to Canadian players despite having less ethic ties to Canada than Italy or England. I think similar reasons can be attributed to the number of Canadians playing in Scandanavia, Scotland and the lower leagues in England. You can see this in the more serious interest in Hutchinson from Saturn and Helsingborg than from Uedinese. From reports it does not sound that Uedinese seriously trialed Hutchinson, probably thinking they could obtain a more established player at this position if needed rather than spending the time and effort of developing Hutchinson. The other two clubs probably saw a chance to get a player at a talent level they would not normally be able to acquire. Had Hutchinson performed at a similar level for the Spanish or Argentine U20 neither Helsingborg nor Saturn would be in the running for his services (in fact they may even have problems retaining a player from their own country after such a performance). Once several Canadians establish themselves in one of the other leagues (such as the Australians in the Premiership) the clubs there will also start looking more closely at our talent but again this will start with the smaller, poorer clubs in these divisions.

[Guest Ed]

I would largely agree with you, but I would put Bayern in a whole other class than the rest of the Bundesliga . This is a team that can go out and sign the top goalscorer in Europe, Makaay, who was also hotly pursued by Barcelona. But the question was whether the foreign (German) coach helped these players. The answer is clearly no.

[Grizzly]

Bayern is in a different class than the rest of the Budesliga and are able to plunder the other teams (Werder in particular) of their best players which does not make them popular with the non-Bayern fan Germans and sign some prominent internationals. However, my point is to compare them with the rich counterparts in the other 3 leagues and I think their budget while still large is much smaller than that of ManU, Real, AC Milan, Juve. Barca was part of this group for many years which is why I mentioned them but I think they have greatly reduced their budget recently due to their massive debt. So I think the relationship is similar, the Bundesliga is the poor sister of the big four leagues and Bayern while not poor, is the poor sister of the super-clubs.

[WildboutCdnScr]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Well for the moment scratch what I said about Bartolemeu being in the MLS. I went searching for news on Occean (still can't find anything) and found this article - apparently Edgar is about to be cut from the Metrostars to open up a Senior International Spot.

Edgar, LeBlanc dropped from the team

February 22, 2004

MetroFanatic has learned that neither Edgar Bartolomeau and Jacob LeBlanc made the trip to Spain and both will likely be placed on waivers. Bartolomeau's departure opens up a senior international spot, and Bob Bradley is busy looking for potential signings. There is a strong possibility that a forward will be signed soon, but that player should not take up the senior slot.

In draft pick news, Seth Stammler suffered a broken leg thanks to a Kansas City tackle, and will miss about four months. The last pick of the draft, Jeff Parke, has impressed greatly and could be the third man in central defense behind Eddie Pope and Tenywa Bonseu. One player who has not impressed is Johnny David, who has been cut, but could be back as a developmental player.

Rochester midfielder David Hayes, Hearts defender Austin McCann, and two Brazilians, defender Gilberto and midfielder Danilo are the non-roster invitees for La Manga.

Interesting post. While I haven't seen anything on Occean in particular, he is one of 19 players in Spain with the Metrostars while Bartolomeau is not listed.

As for Adrian Cann, there was an article in the RMN at the end of January but nothing since because the club website is down and the Denver media don't really cover soccer all that much (although they are listed above Arena Football and Lacrosse at this point and time).

[Guest Ed]

I posted on Adrian Cann on the other board the other day. He is with Colorado and has been seeing plenty of playing time in their exhibition games.

[WildboutCdnScr]

quote:Originally posted by Ed

I posted on Adrian Cann on the other board the other day. He is with Colorado and has been seeing plenty of playing time in their exhibition games.

Now that I did some research I found out more, but thanks.

soccer365.com

http://www.rapidsfan.com/

Like you say he has been getting plenty of time. Looks like in most preseason matches he's playing the full match.

[Gian-Luca]

Re: Cann, the fans of th Rapids forum anticipate that he will be part of the final roster for that team - and there doesn't appear to be too much debate about that. Let's hope Occean can stick as well (he is young enough to qualify for a "Transitional International" (at least I think that is the term) so may have a better chance of sticking around thanks to that).