bettermirror Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 i am wondering where you would prefer our youngsters go to gain professional experience? in europe or in the america's? i am asking this directly relating to world cup squad performances? i believe the players become better in europe, but considering the region we play in i believe the euro game to be too predictable. especially since we haven't yet created game-breakers like joe cole or sebastien deisler yet! tho deguzman may become that for us! that said, i think we should be shipping our 16-18 year olds to south america and mexico for experience. this would also give them further adaptability, and make them more marketable to bigger european squads that are looking at americans in the mls before canadians in continental europe's "second" leagues. (ie/sweden, german second, norway, ireland) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 Latin American option is interesting but I imagine the adjustment for a teenager may be more challenging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schoolboy Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 tony menezes is a prime example...i believe he played in brazil before playing for canada...you could see the skill level he had was better than that of watson and devos...all we need to do is be top three in our region...we all know we will never be as good as mexico...the u.s. puts too much money in their game...so all we have to do is be better than costa rica,hondurus,jamaica,t&t and i guess now cuba...we don't have to send our youngster away to accomplish that...why don't we fix our game first Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 No money in the Americas. At least Europe's 2nd leagues will pay their players. Even give them a descent wage. You hear too many stories of unpaid wages, or slaves wages, playing footy way down south. Players end up share cropping. Playing on speculation of better things to come if they get spotted by a big club. So off to Europe, lads. Make a buck, have a European adventure, bring home a wife. Oh yeah, if you can find the time try to turn into a Canadian football God and kick the beegeezuz outa tha Yanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattbin Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 That was definitely Menezes' experience--he wasn't paid for about six months at one point, I think. Suspect that's why he doesn't bother with South America any more--the Chinese clubs must have the cash. Allez les Rouges, M@ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattbin Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 That was definitely Menezes' experience--he wasn't paid for about six months at one point, I think. Suspect that's why he doesn't bother with South America any more--the Chinese clubs must have the cash. Allez les Rouges, M@ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettermirror Posted September 24, 2003 Author Share Posted September 24, 2003 hehe, alright. holes in the idea. ok, money aside and just looking at the footballing aspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettermirror Posted September 24, 2003 Author Share Posted September 24, 2003 hehe, alright. holes in the idea. ok, money aside and just looking at the footballing aspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 Something worth investigating, though, is whether a Canadian kid would be considered for a place in the youth systems of one of the top Brazilian clubs if he was good enough. Presumably, they would. However, there may be some political issues (ie. 20% unemployment in Sao Paulo would be a strong case against allowing foreigners to take a position from a local kid). I would expect that at the youth level anyway, money would not be as important as the development opportunity. If a 16 year old was able to gain a spot in the Sao Paulo FC youth system, for example, it would not hurt their earnings potential 3 years down the road. Also like eastern Europe, the cost of living is much lower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 Something worth investigating, though, is whether a Canadian kid would be considered for a place in the youth systems of one of the top Brazilian clubs if he was good enough. Presumably, they would. However, there may be some political issues (ie. 20% unemployment in Sao Paulo would be a strong case against allowing foreigners to take a position from a local kid). I would expect that at the youth level anyway, money would not be as important as the development opportunity. If a 16 year old was able to gain a spot in the Sao Paulo FC youth system, for example, it would not hurt their earnings potential 3 years down the road. Also like eastern Europe, the cost of living is much lower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montry Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 The Mexican LEague is the best paid league outside Europe, and one of the best 6-8 paid league in the world (Including Europe). quote:Originally posted by Cheeta No money in the Americas. At least Europe's 2nd leagues will pay their players. Even give them a descent wage. You hear too many stories of unpaid wages, or slaves wages, playing footy way down south. Players end up share cropping. Playing on speculation of better things to come if they get spotted by a big club. So off to Europe, lads. Make a buck, have a European adventure, bring home a wife. Oh yeah, if you can find the time try to turn into a Canadian football God and kick the beegeezuz outa tha Yanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montry Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 The Mexican LEague is the best paid league outside Europe, and one of the best 6-8 paid league in the world (Including Europe). quote:Originally posted by Cheeta No money in the Americas. At least Europe's 2nd leagues will pay their players. Even give them a descent wage. You hear too many stories of unpaid wages, or slaves wages, playing footy way down south. Players end up share cropping. Playing on speculation of better things to come if they get spotted by a big club. So off to Europe, lads. Make a buck, have a European adventure, bring home a wife. Oh yeah, if you can find the time try to turn into a Canadian football God and kick the beegeezuz outa tha Yanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 The best option is a bit of both. The very talented players and brightest prospects should be going to europe since that is where the best players in the world play. The key point is " where the best players in the world play". More on that later. But the vast majority of others should be playing in North america where there is less travel involved and less risk of jet lag when comming back to compete. jet lag is a problem that we don't consider enough when talking about the europe versus North America thing. Look at every world cup champion since the beginning; Except for 2002, no WC has ever been one by a side playing outside their hemisphere. What I am not crazy about is seeing a significant number of canadians going to play in overseas competions where there is no evidence that the calibre of play is any better than what we currently have in North america. They key is, are they playing with and against competetion that will make them better players? I don't have an issue with players playing in the EPL, Eng Div 1, or Bundesliga to name a few. But Scandinavia / scotland div 1 or lower premier or even a non ambitious Eng Div 2 or lower, I dont see how this benefits canadian soccer in the long run. Other factors, How will going to europe affect the players sense of belonging in canada? Imagine if you moved to play in europe and after several years and after having set up some roots there, your national team comes calling. You might justifyably wonder for who and what you are going back to play for. Sometimes, from these forums, some make it sound like its some sort of eden. The minute someone signs a 3 month contract with FC < insert unknown name here> club, he's considered a superstar. I just don'e buy that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 The best option is a bit of both. The very talented players and brightest prospects should be going to europe since that is where the best players in the world play. The key point is " where the best players in the world play". More on that later. But the vast majority of others should be playing in North america where there is less travel involved and less risk of jet lag when comming back to compete. jet lag is a problem that we don't consider enough when talking about the europe versus North America thing. Look at every world cup champion since the beginning; Except for 2002, no WC has ever been one by a side playing outside their hemisphere. What I am not crazy about is seeing a significant number of canadians going to play in overseas competions where there is no evidence that the calibre of play is any better than what we currently have in North america. They key is, are they playing with and against competetion that will make them better players? I don't have an issue with players playing in the EPL, Eng Div 1, or Bundesliga to name a few. But Scandinavia / scotland div 1 or lower premier or even a non ambitious Eng Div 2 or lower, I dont see how this benefits canadian soccer in the long run. Other factors, How will going to europe affect the players sense of belonging in canada? Imagine if you moved to play in europe and after several years and after having set up some roots there, your national team comes calling. You might justifyably wonder for who and what you are going back to play for. Sometimes, from these forums, some make it sound like its some sort of eden. The minute someone signs a 3 month contract with FC < insert unknown name here> club, he's considered a superstar. I just don'e buy that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amacpher Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Canuck Oranje Something worth investigating, though, is whether a Canadian kid would be considered for a place in the youth systems of one of the top Brazilian clubs if he was good enough. Presumably, they would. However, there may be some political issues (ie. 20% unemployment in Sao Paulo would be a strong case against allowing foreigners to take a position from a local kid). The political issues are probably minor. I don't really follow the Brazilian league, but look at all the numerous imports to the Argentine league! And their unemployment is probably worse than Brazil's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SABuffalo786 Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Cheeta Oh yeah, if you can find the time try to turn into a Canadian football God and kick the beegeezuz outa tha Yanks. Since when did you guys have a footballing vendeta against us? I mean, we didn't beat you THAT bad last December. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amacpher Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Free kick jet lag is a problem that we don't consider enough when talking about the europe versus North America thing. Look at every world cup champion since the beginning; Except for 2002, no WC has ever been one by a side playing outside their hemisphere. I assure you this is purely a coincidence!! It's not like the players are travelling back to their home country between each world cup game .... But actually I don't see a pattern here at all. Argentina won the WC in Mexico in 86 and Brazil won in the USA in '94. Both about 10 hour flights from their homeland! And the '78 WC was fixed and you mentioned '02, so what does that leave us with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 quote:Originally posted by amacpher I assure you this is purely a coincidence!! It's not like the players are travelling back to their home country between each world cup game .... But actually I don't see a pattern here at all. Argentina won the WC in Mexico in 86 and Brazil won in the USA in '94. Both about 10 hour flights from their homeland! And the '78 WC was fixed and you mentioned '02, so what does that leave us with? Jet lag is a result of travel over several time zones and not just long travel. So if you travel, say, from South America to North American you will likely suffer fatique but not necessarily jet lag. There many other examples of how jet lag affects performance. In his resignation, Holger even mentioned it as a barrier for Canadian soccer. Also, look at the Olympics, see how canadians have fared when the games are held in Asia or Australia as opposed to the US or Canada. I'm told the you suffer the most from jet lag when you travel Westward on the globe. BTW..Argentina and Brazil are in the same hemsiphere as Mexico and the US Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Free kick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amacpher Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Free kick Jet lag is a result of travel over several time zones and not just long travel. So if you travel, say, from South America to North American you will likely suffer fatique but not necessarily jet lag. There many other examples of how jet lag affects performance. In his resignation, Holger even mentioned it as a barrier for Canadian soccer. Also, look at the Olympics, see how canadians have fared when the games are held in Asia or Australia as opposed to the US or Canada. I'm told the you suffer the most from jet lag when you travel Westward on the globe. BTW..Argentina and Brazil are in the same hemsiphere as Mexico and the US Errr... Argentina & Brazil are in the southern hemispere. Anywho, but i get your point about the time-zone difference. However, its all just a coincidence then when you talk about World Cups. Why? A couple reasons: 1) Because jet-lag is something that affects you for 2 maybe 3 days. Not 6 weeks! And its not a delayed-affect either. Jet-lag didn't all of sudden hit Roberto Baggio right before he lined up his spot kick against Brazil! 2) Most of the players (for contending nations) are coming from the same place when they head to the World Cup site (ie. their club teams in Europe). So Dennis Berkhamp and BatiGol could have been sitting next to each other in the airplane on their way to USA '94 for all we know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy_Yank Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 quote:Originally posted by SABuffalo786 Since when did you guys have a footballing vendeta against us? I mean, we didn't beat you THAT bad last December. We've become Mexico and Canada has become the US. Now that is scary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy_Yank Posted September 24, 2003 Share Posted September 24, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Free kick What I am not crazy about is seeing a significant number of canadians going to play in overseas competions where there is no evidence that the calibre of play is any better than what we currently have in North america. They key is, are they playing with and against competetion that will make them better players? I don't have an issue with players playing in the EPL, Eng Div 1, or Bundesliga to name a few. But Scandinavia / scotland div 1 or lower premier or even a non ambitious Eng Div 2 or lower, I dont see how this benefits canadian soccer in the long run. I don't agree with this. Even if some of the players are playing in a Scandinavian league on par with the A-league they will be playing more matches over a longer period of time. They will also be earning more money. As far as Canadian players and MLS is concerned, a foreign player has to be a lot better than the local standard to get a spot. Canadian players that fit this description can make more money in Europe. Pat Onstad plays because he's a quality keeper with a green card and doesn't command a six figure salary. DeRosario on the other hand is significantly better than the local standard and deserves his international slot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy_Yank Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 bump In a best case scenario (that's theoretically possible) where would you guys like to see Canadian players playing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulV Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Crazy_Yank I don't agree with this. Even if some of the players are playing in a Scandinavian league on par with the A-league they will be playing more matches over a longer period of time. They will also be earning more money. They will also have a better chance of being noticed by the higher level leagues playing in Europe's lower divisions than playing in North America, I'd expect. If they have a realistic chance of moving up, they are probably better off making a name for themselves in Division 2 or 3 rather than the A-league, for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 quote:Originally posted by PaulV They will also have a better chance of being noticed by the higher level leagues playing in Europe's lower divisions than playing in North America, I'd expect. If they have a realistic chance of moving up, they are probably better off making a name for themselves in Division 2 or 3 rather than the A-league, for example. I heard this refrain before that the lower leagues in Europe serv as a good stepping stone whereas you don't get noticed as easily in NA. I have accepted this notion in the past but am now beginning to wonder whether or not that is so. From a canadian perspective, I really don't see any real tangible evidence of this at all. What seems to be happening instead is that you have a much better chance when you go over there and play and excel in the reserves/development systems of the big clubs. The Cnd successes that we have seen thus far have come about this way ( eg>; DeGuzman & Klukowski). Then there is the example of a player like Radzinski who played for a big club in Div I ( after playing for another club in the same league), played well in the champions league, made a name for himself and got picked up by and EPL club. I really haven't yet seen any example of anyone just moving up the ranks from lower division to top clubs. Look at Jim Brennan as a good example. I thought for sure that ( when is contract expired) thare would be some interest from an EPL club. Yet where did he end up? At a club in the same division that is more or less equal to his previous club. In fact at present, he previous clubs, Notts Forest is ahead or Norwich in th race for promotion. If we want a team consisting of truly international players, we need our athletes to be playing in First divsions within strong leagues. I see no evidence that the Scandinavians league are strong at all. I don't see any of their clubs in the champions league field of thirty two. This again is more evidence of the need for the MLS in canada. The MLS might make it easier to retain in Canada all those players playing in the lower divisions/leagues. It would give them a chance to play in a calibre of soccer consisting of players who are our concacaf rivals. Something that won't happen in Sweden, Norway, Scotland ( except for Celtic & Rangers), or the lower divisions in England. Also you stated that they will be earning more money than in canada. That is good for the players but that doesn't necessarily mean much for canadian soccer as a whole. First div sides in Europe tend to acquire and pick up other first divison players instead of looking to the lower leagues when the transfer season opens. I made this argument last year on the old board when someone suggested that Deguzman would be equally well off accepting an offer from a second div side if it meant getting alot of playing time. I disagreed and stated that he would have been better off in the Bundesliga even it mean being on the bench for practically the whole first season. Which he was but look where he is at now. Would he be playing in the Bundesliga now if he would have accepted that offer from that sec div club? also look at a Brian McBride, Playing in the MLS didn't hurt his chances of getting lured by Everton. To win, as a nation, in soccer we need talented international players. Talented internationals play for the richer clubs in teh top leagues. Conclusion, we need more players in top leagues. If they are not there, then the are better off in a league at home Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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