LSSPQ: A new league in the ever-changing Canadian soccer landscape

[Jeremy]

The LSSPQ (Ligue de Soccer Semi-Professionnelle du Québec) is a project submitted by the FSQ that would (ideally) see the light of day as early as next year.

We are talking about a minimum of 6 teams (maximum 12), a season spanning from April to October with 18 to 22 games, a proposed budget of 150 000$ per team, a minimum of 7 semi-professional or professional players per team and a stadium specific to each club with a minimum of 1000 seating capacity. It is also said that the LSSPQ would be sanctioned by the CSA on the same level as the CSL.

In the official document it is said that the submissions period for the 2012 season would be over April 30th, 2011. It seems to me like a stretch to want to set this up from scratch on such a short notice.

But if they're able to pull it off, then hats off to them. It will probably put the CSL's or any other Ontario/Québec semi-pro league's expansion on hold.

The official document (French)

Thanks to Bxl Boy on ImpactSoccer for the info

[Juby]

The LSSPQ (Ligue de Soccer Semi-Professionnelle du Québec) is a project submitted by the FSQ that would (ideally) see the light of day as early as next year.

We are talking about a minimum of 6 teams (maximum 12), a season spanning from April to October with 18 to 22 games, a proposed budget of 150 000$ per team, a minimum of 7 semi-professional or professional players per team and a stadium specific to each club with a minimum of 1000 seating capacity. It is also said that the LSSPQ would be sanctioned by the CSA on the same level as the CSL.

In the official document it is said that the submissions period for the 2012 season would be over April 30th, 2011. It seems to me like a stretch to want to set this up from scratch on such a short notice.

But if they're able to pull it off, then hats off to them. It will probably put the CSL's or any other Ontario/Québec semi-pro league's expansion on hold.

The official document (French)

Thanks to Bxl Boy on ImpactSoccer for the info

Good stuff, a regional division with a semi pro standard (even if they only manage 6 teams) is a definate building block from a national perspective. As a big 'national league' proponent i'd obviously prefer everyone be working together but realistically, if they can flesh out a decent number of teams in a fairly short time, go for it and hopefully they'll be pretty open to a national league discussion once a few more ducks are in line.

[Alex D]

This should help cut the travel of the CSL. I wonder if the Quebec league would be interested in including Ottawa.

In a perfect world these leagues would work together and have a combined cup playoff.

[Jeremy]

Do you guys think it would be possible to re-create (if successful) the LSSPQ format in every province (would already be in place in Ontario with the CSL and in BC with PCSL) and have the champions of each province compete in the Voyageur's Cup the next year?

Of course a national league would be ideal but with the kind of interest there is now and the distances we have to cover, I can hardly see it happen. This could be the way to get there, though.

[Trillium]

This should help cut the travel of the CSL. I wonder if the Quebec league would be interested in including Ottawa.

In a perfect world these leagues would work together and have a combined cup playoff.

The LSQ does not want Ontario teams in the league any team from here will be from Gatineau and play out of a small stadia near the Bob Gurtain Arena or up north at the CEGEP de L'outaouais.

Ottawa does not have a decent stadia, and with a CSL franchise and a PDL its to crowded a market.

[Juby]

Do you guys think it would be possible to re-create (if successful) the LSSPQ format in every province (would already be in place in Ontario with the CSL and in BC with PCSL) and have the champions of each province compete in the Voyageur's Cup the next year?

Of course a national league would be ideal but with the kind of interest there is now and the distances we have to cover, I can hardly see it happen. This could be the way to get there, though.

generally yes, something that gets quite a few teams to a semi pro standard (and then hopefully well have a good selection of teams looking to go low level pro in the long term). The only thing I'm thinking is it might not be able to be strictly provincial in the Maritimes or for Manitoba or Saskatchewan so the format will probably be regionally sensitive.

Sorry that this is the wrong thread to put it in but I was thinking about BC and Alberta, that if they could expand the teams in AMSL and PCSL until they could create an even higher top division, they could apply a semi pro level to their premier division.

The LSQ does not want Ontario teams in the league any team from here will be from Gatineau and play out of a small stadia near the Bob Gurtain Arena or up north at the CEGEP de L'outaouais.

Ottawa does not have a decent stadia, and with a CSL franchise and a PDL its to crowded a market.

I think your right about it being a little to crowded at the moment, but in the long term: If Ottawa becomes a strong soccer market in general it might be a good idea to get a low level team going in a competitive environment (with a million people, I don't think another semi pro team will saturate the market).

My reasoning for this is because I could see them getting into New Brunswick if the Maritimes doesn't do too much, so between that and Impact Academy having been in the CSL, there should be plenty of precedence in a few years if anyone with a bit of cash wanted to try it.

In general I was thinking if their is a Gatineau team, the could have cup with the Fury and CCFC with last years v-cup format(round robin, home and away).

[coppercanuck]

Part of me is excited about this and part of me is annoyed about the addition of more letters to the alphabet soup of league that the CSA seems to have no control over. Attempting to get these league coordinated after they become established, say 5-7 years from now, will be difficult.

Players getting paid to play IS a major step forward.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Looks like the Quebec federation blocked further CSL expansion because they wanted Quebec to have its own league. There's really no obvious reason why semi-pro soccer, which is largely local in scope based on road travel, shouldn't be organized on a province by province or perhaps more realistically on a major city by major city basis as happens in Australia, for example, so this should come as no surprise. If the new "non-amateur" OSA sanctioned league being pushed by Milltown FC also emerges in 2012 the CSL's days may well be numbered at this point.

[Redcoatsforever]

Looks like the Quebec federation blocked further CSL expansion because they wanted Quebec to have its own league. There's really no obvious reason why semi-pro soccer, which is largely local in scope based on road travel, shouldn't be organized on a province by province or perhaps more realistically on a major city by major city basis as happens in Australia, for example, so this should come as no surprise. If the new "non-amateur" OSA sanctioned league being pushed by Milltown FC also emerges in 2012 the CSL's days may well be numbered at this point.

Have you been following the recent stream of developments in the CSL? I'm not saying management are my favourite people, but it would appear they smelled the changing in the winds and have begun to adapt.

I don't mind the major-city/provincial approach, but at some point there needs to be a clear line from that level to the top, and it'll be easier to make that happen if the leagues are all under one big tent organization.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Bear in mind I have spent decades listening to the official line put out in press releases by leagues like the CSL. You are hearing a stream of announcements because they are trying to head something off at the pass. Time will tell if the announcements have enough substance to achieve that goal. Beyond that, arguably, all that's needed in terms of determining a national title is a short end of season playoff held at a single venue similar to the existing National Championships at the amateur level between the ten provincial champions. The CSA could easily organize that, simply by changing the format of the existing tournament to allow semi-pro teams to participate as well. There is no obvious need for a big tent league organization to do it. A lot of people badly want a national pro league for emotional reasons with regular season interprovincial travel and a 6 or 7 month schedule but that's something that realistically can only happen at the D2 or D1 sort of level not at a D3 scale of operations, which is local rather than national in scope during the regular season.

[reel2real]

RE: A Maritime/Atlantic Canada CSL.

I highly doubt it will happen. The big crux of the problem is travel (mainly for the Newfoundland teams...who would probably would be a huge part of league, especially St. Lawrence). There has been talk about a Atlantic league for ages, but was heavily shot down by the NL fans.

A maritime league DID run in 2008 I think with Fredericton, Moncton, and Charlottetown joining the Eastlink Premiership (that only lasted 1 season due to politics)

[Richard]

I think a series of independent provincial (or regional in the case of the Maritimes and Prairies perhaps) leagues across the country more or less in line with this new Quebec league and the one proposed recently for Ontario, complying with national standards, is the best approach for a domestic semi-pro structure in Canada and have been saying so for a long time now. All contingent of course on finances/owners. The CSL approach of ranchising itself nationally as previously advocated was never going to work.

[Juby]

*sigh* the craziness never ends:

Looks like the Quebec federation blocked further CSL expansion because they wanted Quebec to have its own league. There's really no obvious reason why semi-pro soccer, which is largely local in scope based on road travel, shouldn't be organized on a province by province or perhaps more realistically on a major city by major city basis as happens in Australia, for example, so this should come as no surprise. If the new "non-amateur" OSA sanctioned league being pushed by Milltown FC also emerges in 2012 the CSL's days may well be numbered at this point.

'Looks like' your making huge assumptions and presenting them like facts. And then of course you drop some 'sky is falling' silliness about the CSL going down based on a potential league and a new league in another province? that's not a stretch now is it?

Bear in mind I have spent decades listening to the official line put out in press releases by leagues like the CSL. You are hearing a stream of announcements because they are trying to head something off at the pass. Time will tell if the announcements have enough substance to achieve that goal. Beyond that, arguably, all that's needed in terms of determining a national title is a short end of season playoff held at a single venue similar to the existing National Championships at the amateur level between the ten provincial champions. The CSA could easily organize that, simply by changing the format of the existing tournament to allow semi-pro teams to participate as well. There is no obvious need for a big tent league organization to do it. A lot of people badly want a national pro league for emotional reasons with regular season interprovincial travel and a 6 or 7 month schedule but that's something that realistically can only happen at the D2 or D1 sort of level not at a D3 scale of operations, which is local rather than national in scope during the regular season.

'Bear in mind' you usually start it with your usual 'nothing ever changes' silliness (if their wasn't a bunch of other factors involved, you might actually have a point).

Actually 'all that's needed' is more pro and semi pro teams. I generally thought the goal was to fill out the d-3/d-2 gap, but here you point out the problems of having the current semi pro teams travel nationally, assuming their not going to try and build up (pyramid) to a national division, of course if we put the current csl model into a national league it wouldn't work, so the solution is more regional leagues until we can build something and nothing to do with the problems your bringing up

.

Sure a cup would be nice, but we need semi-pro leagues to start getting more semi pro teams, it could be a help but it's largely an ancillary point (you could do it regardless of what direction you went).

It's funny how you talk about people being 'emotional' in this? You have advocated the PDL and made up all sorts of snotty accusations and silly doomsday scenarios for the CSL for god knows how long. I have been advocating the CSL (primarily cause it's our finest semi pro league) and have been pretty much ambivalent towards the PDL but it's the 'national league' people who are too emotional? (emotional people say silly things, like all your doom and gloom CSL stuff, for example, 'tfc and impact academies haven't said much lately...they MUST BE LEAVING THE LEAGUE hahahah)

It's also very funny how confidently you act like good news has to be a cover for bad news??? Well of course everything will look suspicious if you take a statement to mean the exact opposite...

I have been advocating for god knows how long the creation of regional leagues to build a good 10-20 clubs capable of making a national d-2 league. It's been said a million times but no one wants to create a national d-3, so when you compare d-2 problems to d-3 realities, your just talking to yourself about how silly your own bad idea is(and trying to pretend it's our idea).

RE: A Maritime/Atlantic Canada CSL.

I highly doubt it will happen. The big crux of the problem is travel (mainly for the Newfoundland teams...who would probably would be a huge part of league, especially St. Lawrence). There has been talk about a Atlantic league for ages, but was heavily shot down by the NL fans.

A maritime league DID run in 2008 I think with Fredericton, Moncton, and Charlottetown joining the Eastlink Premiership (that only lasted 1 season due to politics)

ummmm, well I didn't exactly say all that, I vaguely said "...it might not be able to be strictly provincial in the Maritimes...". So I never said all the provinces have to be for it. For example, it only makes sense for the other 3 provinces work together because their close enough to capitalize on all their decent sized cities and pool resources. If Newfoundland doesn't want in, no biggie, hopefully they'll still try and step up to semi pro, and when they do, since they'll be dealing with larger amounts of money, travel might not seem as expensive. Theirs literally dozens of things that could be done, and all are better then nothing

I think a series of independent provincial (or regional in the case of the Maritimes and Prairies perhaps) leagues across the country more or less in line with this new Quebec league and the one proposed recently for Ontario, complying with national standards, is the best approach for a domestic semi-pro structure in Canada and have been saying so for a long time now. All contingent of course on finances/owners. The CSL approach of ranchising itself nationally as previously advocated was never going to work.

I, for example, have been advocating a group of 6 regional semi-pro divisions so we could have the peices together to build a national d-2 on top that could relegate struggling teams and bring in new blood(when the csa made an announcement about looking into a national d-2 I was very interested but that hardly changes what I had been saying long before and long since). Yet months ago you were argueing against it? Maybe it's cause my long term goal is a national division, you would just see red and start argueing step E and pretend you didn't hear the first bit?

Also, the CSL has been the only decent semi pro model for the past few years, of course people are going to advocate lumping in with it or copying it (the arguement was pretty simple till now, you want an amateur PDL team or a semi pro division?). Literally you guys just prefer these leagues because you are emotionally against the CSL, their going to be similar leagues, trying to copy the sustainability of the CSL semi pro model. The funny thing is, do you guys really think anyone will care if the CSL is just a piece of new bigger league in the long run? I have been referring to national plans using the CSL as an example because it was the best peice of the puzzle we have, my goal however has always been a proper regional framework to build a national d-2 on top of, so they could call the league bbtb for all I care, I'll still be happier then all hell and you'll be left pretending you've been advocating this from the start. Every regional division we get makes me happy cause it brings us one step closer.

just for fun, here's a horribly complicated post of mine from like a year ago on the subject:

http://www.cansoc.org/showthread.php?39913-What-s-your-hope-for-Canadian-player-development-in-5-years

generally, it's actually funny how similar it is to what the anti CSL people are now advocating, their just all for something when it's not 'CSL'. BTW, why'd I use the CSL? well what in the hell other league was I gonna use?

Hey, I argue as much as you guys so it's my bad too, but how about we don't turn a thread on the LSSPQ into a passive aggressive, 'let's talk about how much we hate the csl' thread

[ray]

This is generally good. With the FSQ behind it, the project does not have soccer politics blocking the way.

So, what happens to the Impact Academy team in 2012 and beyond? Makes sense for them to be in the LSSPQ if the quality is good.

[coppercanuck]

I know I get emotional about this. Who cares! I want Canadian teams to stop using the American framework.

The question we all dance around is the differences in these leagues. If you had the money to build a team (build ... not buy) which league would you join? CSL, PDL, New OSA non-amateur?

[Jeremy]

(By the way, LSSPQ is a temporary name according to the document. They plan on naming it something else when more important matters are settled)

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

I know I get emotional about this. Who cares! I want Canadian teams to stop using the American framework.

But want doesn't always get and the people who are investing a significant portion of their personal net worth need to try to stay rational about this if they want to make rather than lose money or at the very least establish a team that can be sustained over the long haul. What I find truly sad about threads like this sometimes is that some people never seem grasp that I would love to see a strong Canadian framework emerge at a D2 or D1 sort of level if I could see a rational basis for it in economic terms. I don't so I prefer to see a viable solution using the American framework to not having a sustainable league for genuinely pro level teams.

The question we all dance around is the differences in these leagues. If you had the money to build a team (build ... not buy) which league would you join? CSL, PDL, New OSA non-amateur?

At a D3/D4 level (depending on which association is doing the sanctioning), if based in a relatively remote location with a limited population within easy driving distance PDL based on U23 players, who are still in full-time education in the winter months, is the model that works. Thunder Bay is the prime example but even in the context of a city like London there have been serious issues with all the travel to the GTA that has scared away many of the best players locally. I am open-minded to the possibility of a Canadian framework eventually working in this context but until a critical mass of teams is reached it's best to use PDL for now.

If based close to the GTA (one hour's drive or less) and within the territorial franchise rights area of an existing PDL team then the new OSA non-amateur provincial league is clearly the way to go, in my opinion, assuming they are able to attract sufficient numbers to be viable. Milltown FC and Hamilton Croatia are the prime examples on that. If you already own equity in the CSL then clearly you don't want to lose the value you perceive that has but that doesn't apply with new teams, especially if a strong rival league emerges that doesn't use the franchise model. One size doesn't fit all on this and the interests of remoter cities as well as the largest metropolitan areas both need to be effectively catered to.

[Richard]

This is generally good. With the FSQ behind it, the project does not have soccer politics blocking the way.

So, what happens to the Impact Academy team in 2012 and beyond? Makes sense for them to be in the LSSPQ if the quality is good.

In due course join the USSF academy circuit as the Whitecaps have done.

[Trillium]

(By the way, LSSPQ is a temporary name according to the document. They plan on naming it something else when more important matters are settled)

Lique Nationale de Quebec LNQ, to be listed on FIFA in future.

[Trillium]

In due course join the USSF academy circuit as the Whitecaps have done.

Richard.. i doubt it ... unless its a MLS academy league not going to happen out of Quebec.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Lique Nationale de Quebec LNQ, to be listed on FIFA in future.

Back in the 80s and 90s there was a semi-pro Nationale Soccer Ligue de Quebec or something like that (almost 30 years since I sat in a classroom learning French). Maybe they'll go back to that? Think there is no danger of a FIFA listing without the CSA's approval. Kosovo has yet to get into UEFA and FIFA despite reasonably widespread international recognition, for example.

[Richard]

Richard.. i doubt it ... unless its a MLS academy league not going to happen out of Quebec.

That would be the Impact's and Quebec's loss then.

[ThiKu]

^Canada needs its own national youth league.

[Redcoatsforever]

That would be the Impact's and Quebec's loss then.

Impact Academie play in CSL with TFC Academy. CSL is an absolutely fine level for U18 development.

[Richard]

^Canada needs its own national youth league.

Don't disagree, but we don't have such a league and clubs need to find the best competitive environment for their player development they can now, not in ten years time.

The BC Soccer Premier League (U-13 to U-18) is a step in the right direction for high level youth development but local clubs rejected the notion that the Whitecaps play their teams in the BCSPL because it was viewed as unfair competition. What better alternative for them and the game than the USSF academy program?