Tuscan Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 I'm curious to hear what people believe to be the best ways to measure success when it comes to sub-USL-1 teams. I've been trying to wrap my head around the concept of starting with small operations in smaller centers than Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal. While I can understand that a solid grassroots base needs to be created to allow for success, is it not possible to create that base with a larger operation like USL-1, which would bring with it the fact it is a professional league with players from around the world, rather than with a team in a smaller league like PDL or the CSL? My current view is that for centers that are small, like Saskatoon for instance, that don't really have anything when it comes to Professional teams, bringing in yet another non-pro team would not draw lots of interest. Bringing in a professional team in a large league like USL-1, featuring players from around the world, would generate interest, but would not allow for much connection to the community through player development (at least not for the first few years). Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
An Observer Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 PDL certainly seems to have done well in year one in London which considering is relative proximity to toronto is doing well in a crowded market. Its done well in Victoria. I think ownership is the most important thing and putting a decent product on the field. Calgary did well in the PDL but moved to quickly to the USL-1 and suffered from a very poor side and poor venue. I think building a decent franchise in PDL for a few years including a youth program, then moving to USL-1 or USL-2 is a smart move. However, I think that jump is alot bigger than people realise. Effectively, you will need a new side for USL-1 and your PDL team can stay as a reserve side. Calgary certainly over estimated their strength. Take 3 or 4 of your good PDL players and bring the rest in from outside. Lower fans expectations by making it clear that in year 1 just winning a few matches is your goal. And having a 3 to 5 year plan to make the playoffs. If you can keep the core support of a few thousand you built in the PDL, you have a chance at making it but ticket prices, corporate sponsors will have to increase to cover teh additional costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Tuscan ....is it not possible to create that base with a larger operation like USL-1, which would bring with it the fact it is a professional league with players from around the world, rather than with a team in a smaller league like PDL or the CSL? All depends on how deep the pockets of the ownership are and their overall commitment level to the sport. I'm sure a number of smaller Canadian cities could potentially support a team operated along the lines of the Charleston Battery if somebody were willing to drop $5 to $10 million on an SSS and another few mill to cover the operating losses until fan support reaches a point that the franchise is a financially sustainable operation. In the absence of that PDL is the much better bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFCRegina Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 I'm of the opinion Promotion/Relegation would draw more interest, but it would probably be bad to have right now, when cash flow is really weak. Give it five years, pro/rel will work like a charm then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 No reason not to in a CSL context, in my opinion. The Australian state leagues should be the model for the semi-pro level i.e. don't try/pretend to be national and simply have a pro/rel league setup in each major city with all the teams within about 1 hours drive of each other. Different story with PDL and USL-D1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 What is success? Well, it depends on what you want to see happen in Canadian soccer. I want to see Canada win the World Cup. I don't really care about pro leagues. Therefore, any "pro" team below the MLS level, is useless to me unless it develops Canadians. For example, the Thunder Bay Chill winning the PDL championship with a 90% non-Canadian roster is a complete failure to me. It's useless and pointless. As for the CSL, if all it becomes is a league for construction workers to pretend like they are playing in Serie A (meaning the elite men's senior amateur beer league in Ontario), then that's a complete failure. For the CSL to be considered a success, it has to fill that gap that exists between the youth game and the pros. It has to develop the best players between 16-22 and be a stepping stone to bigger leagues be it MLS or Europe. As for Saskatoon, could it support a triple A baseball team? I doubt it. Why would it be able to support a triple A soccer (USL-1) team? You can't tell me there are more soccer fans than baseball fans. One of the problems in Canada is I think most of us don't understand how big US cities are compared to Canadian cities. A city the size of Saskatoon would be lucky to have a double A level pro team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Elias What is success? Well, it depends on what you want to see happen in Canadian soccer. I want to see Canada win the World Cup. I don't really care about pro leagues. Therefore, any "pro" team below the MLS level, is useless to me unless it develops Canadians. For example, the Thunder Bay Chill winning the PDL championship with a 90% non-Canadian roster is a complete failure to me. It's useless and pointless. As for the CSL, if all it becomes is a league for construction workers to pretend like they are playing in Serie A (meaning the elite men's senior amateur beer league in Ontario), then that's a complete failure. For the CSL to be considered a success, it has to fill that gap that exists between the youth game and the pros. It has to develop the best players between 16-22 and be a stepping stone to bigger leagues be it MLS or Europe. As for Saskatoon, could it support a triple A baseball team? I doubt it. Why would it be able to support a triple A soccer (USL-1) team? You can't tell me there are more soccer fans than baseball fans. One of the problems in Canada is I think most of us don't understand how big US cities are compared to Canadian cities. A city the size of Saskatoon would be lucky to have a double A level pro team. Have you spent a lot of time in Saskatoon Elias? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Elias I want to see Canada win the World Cup. I don't really care about pro leagues. Those two statements are directly contradictory. You cannot win the WC without providing professional clubs to develop players from an early age. You cannot have pro clubs without pro leagues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuscan Posted July 24, 2009 Author Share Posted July 24, 2009 Actually Saskatoon has surprisingly high registration numbers for soccer considering it's size and population breakdown (quite a few hicks in this here town, boy). The problem with this city is a lack of good marketing as well as a general sense that anything we get here that can be considered professional is in two-bit leagues that fold before any of the teams do. As for measuring success, I view the growth of interest and how established a team can get as a genuine measure of its success in a new center. Its ability to create long-term fans is also a measure, as it is the long-termers who will stick through thick and thin and continue to cheer the team on. The Riders have managed to do it here, and they are as engrained in the Saskatchewan lifestyle as farming is (Elias, there's the bait []). Something I haven't quite wrapped my head around is the success measure of community involvement and actual player development. I've focused far too much on the financial aspect that it can drown out some of the better underlying reasons for the club to exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFCRegina Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 The Riders are in Regina, thanks Tuscan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackTheBlizzard Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Elias As for the CSL, if all it becomes is a league for construction workers to pretend like they are playing in Serie A (meaning the elite men's senior amateur beer league in Ontario), then that's a complete failure. I think this is a fairly widespread attitude, which damages Canadian soccer, personally. There is a huge difference between a "beer league" where the players pay a registration fee to participate on a purely recreational basis and an elite amateur or semi-pro setup where teams cover expenses and recruit players based solely on ability and commitment level to practicing twice a week for a weekend game. In many top European countries (Germany and Spain would be prime examples) the top pro clubs run reserve teams against semi-pro level teams to develop young players. Having the local elite amateur and/or semi-pro leagues reach the best standard they can in Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal could do a lot to help the three pro level clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoccMan Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 In terms of the CSL all I need to know is who some of the owners are. It's the same guys more or else for over 20 years or so. To figure out who these same guys are I'm referring to are, just look at the standings year in and year out and see which two teams seem to always have the worst records every season and you will figure out who I'm talking about. It's owners like these that prevent this league from moving forward and having any effect on producing players that can move on to bigger and better things in soccer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadianfoot Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Can someone remind me where did the Calgary Mustangs & Edmonton Aviators play while in the PDl & then in A-league? I believe that once a team avg around 2000 in attendace per game for at least 3years, then they might think of going forward to a higher lever. And as An Observer mentioned it is a bigger jump than people think. Once in the USL1 or 2 aim for the middle of the standings in the first 2yrs then once you have a good roster in the 3rd year or later one might think about the league's title. Marketing & Ownership are important and need to realise that losses might be for 3-5yrs before they can make any real profit. While in that time their "reserves" will have matured. Any team in a City of 100k plus boroughs(another 100k) will be able to fill a 5-6k stadium. the key is don't aim right away for a stadium for 12-15k that's absurd Something interesting, for some: http://members.shaw.ca/mustangs_alley/index.htm http://www.uslsoccer.com/home/63894.html and they did make history Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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