Ben Knight Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 With Ben Rycroft and Chantelle Junker both on the disabled list, Ben Knight talks Canadian soccer with Duane Rollins and Gian-Luca Di Rocco. http://onwardsoccer.com/its-called-football/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Boy that camera does add a few pounds..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Rollins1555362254 Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca Boy that camera does add a few pounds..... Takes hair away too I hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuscan Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Man does Ben need to do a slight bit more research on some of the topics, just to get the proper country associated with the right club. This webcast is great, I look forward to next week's edition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MexTFC Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Good job guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegasAlexandros1555362277 Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Been taking the show in for the past couple of weeks and I enjoy being able to listen to people passionate about Canadian football discuss it, even if I don't always agree with their point of view. With regards to that, I wanted to make a quick point about something Duane Rollins said with regards to the whole USL vs MLS debate. He used as an example the fact that Liverpool was beaten by a Championship side last year to hammer home the point that just because Liverpool lost on the day, it doesn't mean that the Championship is a better league than the EPL. I agree with that, but the same kind of logic cannot be applied to the USL vs MLS debate and I'll explain why. The EPL and Championship, along with the lower division of English football, are part of a very well established football pyramid in England where the whole point is that the best teams are at the top, and theory is that with promotion/relegation, the best teams remain at the top whilst teams that struggle sink to the bottom. This is very different than what we have here in North America. The USSF may have declared MLS as Div. 1 soccer and USL as Div. 2 but that is meaningless without promotion/relegation. Furthermore, the different rules with regards to roster size, roster makeup and salary caps (or lack thereof) make for an even more difficult comparison. The fact is, MLS and USL are not part of a soccer pyramid the way people like to think they are. These are two leagues that have developed very much in parallel to one another with very different business models and philosophies. So the EPL/Championship analogy, as far as I'm concerned, goes out the window. My 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Rollins1555362254 Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 quote:Originally posted by MegasAlexandros Been taking the show in for the past couple of weeks and I enjoy being able to listen to people passionate about Canadian football discuss it, even if I don't always agree with their point of view. With regards to that, I wanted to make a quick point about something Duane Rollins said with regards to the whole USL vs MLS debate. He used as an example the fact that Liverpool was beaten by a Championship side last year to hammer home the point that just because Liverpool lost on the day, it doesn't mean that the Championship is a better league than the EPL. I agree with that, but the same kind of logic cannot be applied to the USL vs MLS debate and I'll explain why. The EPL and Championship, along with the lower division of English football, are part of a very well established football pyramid in England where the whole point is that the best teams are at the top, and theory is that with promotion/relegation, the best teams remain at the top whilst teams that struggle sink to the bottom. This is very different than what we have here in North America. The USSF may have declared MLS as Div. 1 soccer and USL as Div. 2 but that is meaningless without promotion/relegation. Furthermore, the different rules with regards to roster size, roster makeup and salary caps (or lack thereof) make for an even more difficult comparison. The fact is, MLS and USL are not part of a soccer pyramid the way people like to think they are. These are two leagues that have developed very much in parallel to one another with very different business models and philosophies. So the EPL/Championship analogy, as far as I'm concerned, goes out the window. My 2 cents. Thanks for the reasoned reply. Ask yourself which league you think has the better future. Would you rather gamble on the USL? Or, MLS. Keep in mind that MLS is about to infuse $80 million into the league in the immediate future and probably another $100 million two years after that through expansion fees. A $1 million increase to the MLS salary cap is all that it will take to remove the last advantage USL can claim to--the ability to attract middle class players. When I go off of USL I'm not doing so because I dislike Montreal. Suggesting so is too simple by half. I'm making the argument because I really believe that the Impact have made a huge mistake that all of you are going to regret in five years. UM02 needs to stop drinking the JS Kool-aid when it comes to MLS (and not be blinded by the really fun party you're having right now). You need to demand that the Impact get the hell out of USL because your club will never grow beyond what it is now unless it does. Last week was great. Hold onto those memories while you are watching Cleveland with 9,000 in attendance in August. It will also be interesting to see how many tickets are sold in two weeks for a potential semi-final at Olympic Stadium--especially if it's Houston that's drawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
massimo Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 Thanks for the analysis MediaGuy, but you've completely missed his very valid point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Rollins1555362254 Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 quote:Originally posted by massimo Thanks for the analysis MediaGuy, but you've completely missed his very valid point. What point? That there is no pro/rel in North American soccer? USL-1 itself does not claim to be more than it is--the second tier if soccer in Canada and the USA. I'm not sure there is any debate on that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Rollins1555362254 Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 quote:Originally posted by massimo Thanks for the analysis MediaGuy, but you've completely missed his very valid point. Let me turn this around. Are you prepared to argue that Montreal is better off in USL-1? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegasAlexandros1555362277 Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 quote:Originally posted by MediaGuy What point? That there is no pro/rel in North American soccer? Um... no. My point was that you could not use the EPL/Championship analogy with MLS/USL because the structure of the leagues here is totally different than it is in England or pretty much anywhere else in the footballing world. As for whether or not Montreal is better of in USL... well the fact is that both USL and MLS BOTH have advantages and disadvantages. Anyone who cannot see that is very biased. The foundations of USL are quite shaky with clubs unfortunately coming and going on a yearly basis. But, clubs are allowed to run their operations pretty much as they see fit. MLS has the bigger markets, the big sponsors like Adidas, the national TV deal. But it severally curtails the rights of the individual clubs by being much to centralized. Not to mention all the roster rules and salary cap which greatly limit teams with the roster decisions they can make. As I see it, the Impact would not have achieved what they did last year if they were not in USL. The fact they were able to bring in several players to provide them with the depth they needed to play all those games in such a short span of time is thanks to being in USL. For the opposite effect, see what the NE Revolution did in the CCL qualifiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Rollins1555362254 Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 quote:Originally posted by MegasAlexandros Um... no. My point was that you could not use the EPL/Championship analogy with MLS/USL because the structure of the leagues here is totally different than it is in England or pretty much anywhere else in the footballing world. As for whether or not Montreal is better of in USL... well the fact is that both USL and MLS BOTH have advantages and disadvantages. Anyone who cannot see that is very biased. The foundations of USL are quite shaky with clubs unfortunately coming and going on a yearly basis. But, clubs are allowed to run their operations pretty much as they see fit. MLS has the bigger markets, the big sponsors like Adidas, the national TV deal. But it severally curtails the rights of the individual clubs by being much to centralized. Not to mention all the roster rules and salary cap which greatly limit teams with the roster decisions they can make. As I see it, the Impact would not have achieved what they did last year if they were not in USL. The fact they were able to bring in several players to provide them with the depth they needed to play all those games in such a short span of time is thanks to being in USL. For the opposite effect, see what the NE Revolution did in the CCL qualifiers. The MLS cap is currently almost four times what USL pays on salaries. Most MLS teams chose to front load on the contracts to attract 10-15 very good players as opposed to 24 OK players. USL, in contrast, spreads the money pretty evenly. That allows the league to pay Adam Braz (for instance) much more than he would get as a depth player in MLS. However not every MLS team approaches its roster like that. For an example, see Houston. The Dynamo finished second overall in MLS and qualified to the CCL quarters because they are likely the best 1-24 team in MLS. They pretty much used their depth players in the CCL and still managed to advance. So, it can be done using the MLS model. But to fully understand what I'm saying you have to look into the future. Do you really think MLS is going to remain static in its roster make-up and cap moving forward? Don't you think that the gap between MLS and USL will grow as the better USL markets move to USL? Money talks and MLS generates far more of it than USL does. Suggesting that I'm "biased" towards MLS is a bit inaccurate. Bias implies that my feeling that the league is the better option is based on irrational emotions. It's not. My argument is based on the evidence that I see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
massimo Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Your evidence is based on what may but has not yet happened. Saying all the best clubs in North America currently have a home in MLS is hogwash that's a fact no matter how you slice it. There is no way you or anyone can prove it, without going through the process of promotion and relegation. The way its done in Europe. And no I don't expect things to change USL1 will keep its clubs and MLS too. But carry on as you wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philippe Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 I must say as an impact fan... I'm not sure what to think on that topic... I prefer the USL rules, but I can't dismiss the MLS greater exposure. I have to admit that I kinda wish Montreal would get into MLS... Perhaps in a near future... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Rollins1555362254 Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 quote:Originally posted by massimo Your evidence is based on what may but has not yet happened. Saying all the best clubs in North America currently have a home in MLS is hogwash that's a fact no matter how you slice it. I assume you mean Canada and the U.S. when you say North America. Clearly the best teams in North America as a whole are in Mexico. There are 26 teams in MLS and USL-1. Based on any objective evaluation of those teams -- using the history of head to head match-ups between the teams -- the top 10, at minimum, would be MLS teams. Suggesting otherwise is to be blinded by this one run (which is why the Barnsley analogy is apt. What they did in the FA Cup was wonderful, but it in no way indicated anything about the clubs potential to move up a level. Go to the Sounders boards and ask there. You'll find an almost universal acceptance that they have better talent and a better potential to grow in MLS than they did in USL-1. It's baffling to me that anyone can argue otherwise? There have been two great results in Montreal’s run – the win in Honduras and the win last week. Tell me again how that’s different than Barnsley beating Liverpool and Chelsea? The USL-1 itself does not claim to be at par with MLS. Why do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 ^It's Burnley! Montreal have proven they are better than TFC by the "objective evaluation" you turn to in football: the table which they topped. How much more objective do want? Give 'em their due. If I were a TFC supporter (which I am, from a far in the privacy of my own home -much like a good wank) I'd be quite jealous that Montreal appears to have a rival fan base and no salary cap. I'd be frustrated that MLS has the most recidivist rules in the history of the free world, and really, other than TFC, the rest of the league is a glorified Rochester in disguise. A future without Montreal, Vancouver and Portland isn't terribly bright. You can only watch the KC Wizards so many times before you want to hang yourself with your own scarf. $1 million isn't going to fix that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadianSoccerFan Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone ^It's Burnley! It's Barnsley and it's pretty shocking that you don't know that considering your board name and the fact they beat 'Pool at Anfield last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Rollins1555362254 Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone ^It's Burnley! You're thinking of a different upset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Rollins1555362254 Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone ^It's Burnley! Montreal have proven they are better than TFC by the "objective evaluation" you turn to in football: the table which they topped. How much more objective do want? Give 'em their due. If I were a TFC supporter (which I am, from a far in the privacy of my own home -much like a good wank) I'd be quite jealous that Montreal appears to have a rival fan base and no salary cap. I'd be frustrated that MLS has the most recidivist rules in the history of the free world, and really, other than TFC, the rest of the league is a glorified Rochester in disguise. A future without Montreal, Vancouver and Portland isn't terribly bright. You can only watch the KC Wizards so many times before you want to hang yourself with your own scarf. $1 million isn't going to fix that. I have "given Montreal their due" several times in this thread. This conversation has NOTHING TO DO WITH TFC. It's about what's best for Montreal moving forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.