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Forza_Italia

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quote:Originally posted by Vancouver Fan

Every nation can look back at games that resulted in their exiting major tournaments and find many reasons why they lost.

Yeah, but the way Italy loses is somewhat similar to England: often by penalties. Hence the irony when a 8th generation Roman/pro-Italy supporter talks about England choking :D

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Guest Jeffery S.
quote:Originally posted by villus

England is overated, and overhyped. Gerrard is good and rooney is good. Not great but good after that nothing much really. There results clearly show that they are not that good of a team. English fans are the most annoying along with the US, because they always think there teams are way better than they are

Spanish fans are in there too, but at least they are not boasting to the rest of the world how great they are, they just boast to themselves after one good result normally, then fall out, much like England.

England fails because they have weak tactical sense on the field, they are real kittens. It is just have pace, or pick up the pace, run hard, or run harder. When it works it is impressive, when it doesn't it looks like rather comical, like a Willy Wonka contraption that huffs, puffs, grinds, hoots, steams, and then, if lucky, drops a little bonbon onto a platter.

Italy, in contrast, are the best tacticians in football, along with the Argentines. They think on the field, they think about winning. Sometimes their speculation is so damn ugly you can't watch, they are not living in the present, they are only thinking about the last five minutes, or the rare moment when the break will come and they can get that goal. When they are abstracted like that they do get results, but if they don't they are easy to criticize as they have not, apparently, worked hard and professionally on the field, they have been "anti-football", so it is said.

The difference, then, is that the Italian players are technically, with the ball, as good as any other, so they have the technique to make the negative style work at times, and, as in a couple games at the WC, to actually come out and play positively and aggressively, and then you wonder why they could not be that way always.

As for the thread title, well England and Spain are living through a similar time of hangover and doubt. Why get excited about qualifying for a Eurocup if you are just going out in quarterfinals anyways? I think there is a bit of fatalism there, and it is hard to regroup and not be demoralized and cynical from the start. In principle Beckham out of England and Raúl out of Spain is all about forcing the new generation to take on more responsibility, which is good, only it may take a bit of time and who knows, either could be surprised to find themselves sitting out of Eurocup 2008. I am not so sure they would either really care that much, oddly enough.

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quote:Originally posted by amacpher

Yeah, but the way Italy loses is somewhat similar to England: often by penalties. Hence the irony when a 8th generation Roman/pro-Italy supporter talks about England choking :D

8th generation, my parents were born there and I have played soccer in Italy for the Canada in a tournement. and trust me if Italy played Canada in the finals I would cheer for Canada, but because of who runs the CSL we will never make it

and I said BRAZIL THEN ITALY-GERMANY-ARGENTINA

ITALY IS CLOSER TO BRAZIL THAN ENGLAND BEING CLOSER TO ITALY

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quote:Originally posted by Forza_Italia

8th generation, my parents were born there and I have played soccer in Italy for the Canada in a tournement. and trust me if Italy played Canada in the finals I would cheer for Canada, but because of who runs the CSL we will never make it

and I said BRAZIL THEN ITALY-GERMANY-ARGENTINA

ITALY IS CLOSER TO BRAZIL THAN ENGLAND BEING CLOSER TO ITALY

Nope. You said that Vancouver fan said "Brazil, Italy, Germany, Argentina". What Vancouver fan really said was that there is Brasil at one level. Then Germany/Italy/Argentina at the next lower level. Then France.

And if you think Italy > Germany that would add, amazingly, another layer to your cluelessness. :D

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quote:Originally posted by amacpher

Nope. You said that Vancouver fan said "Brazil, Italy, Germany, Argentina". What Vancouver fan really said was that there is Brasil at one level. Then Germany/Italy/Argentina at the next lower level. Then France.

And if you think Italy > Germany that would add, amazingly, another layer to your cluelessness. :D

Well we do have More World Cups we have beaten them in every World Cup match we ever played, Italy has a better head to head record. But Italy and Germany are simliar, and very close.

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quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

Spanish fans are in there too, but at least they are not boasting to the rest of the world how great they are, they just boast to themselves after one good result normally, then fall out, much like England.

uhh... English people are notoriously negative people. Both fans and the media. I don't know where you got the idea that they boast how great they are. *confused* Maybe you can find one article (just ONE) from the BBC or some reputable source that backs up your claim?

Just one recent small example to counter your belief. Go to the Germany v England Under-21 match-thread in BigSoccer. Even though England won 2-nil in Germany with 2 great goals, the fans on there are pretty negative about the England performance. http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=407434&page=13

--- ----

As for that poster (Villus) who thinks Gerrard is only good, not great. If that is the case, surely you can come up with 5 midfielders in world who are better than him, yes? Actually there is at most only 1 midfielder in the world better than him (Ronaldinho), and even that is highly debatable based on recent performance). But since you said he was not great (and surely top 5 is considered "great"), your job is to list 5.

This should be fun. [:P]

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quote:Originally posted by Forza_Italia

Well we do have More World Cups we have beaten them in every World Cup match we ever played, Italy has a better head to head record. But Italy and Germany are simliar, and very close.

World cups: 3-2 Germany.

Euro Cups: 3-1 Germany.

I love how you go on about England's failure in the Euros but when it comes time to compare Italy with Germany, you only focus on world cups. :D

Consistency isn't your strong suit obviously.

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quote:Originally posted by amacpher

uhh... English people are notoriously negative people. Both fans and the media. I don't know where you got the idea that they boast how great they are. *confused* Maybe you can find one article (just ONE) from the BBC or some reputable source that backs up your claim?

Just one recent small example to counter your belief. Go to the Germany v England Under-21 match-thread in BigSoccer. Even though England won 2-nil in Germany with 2 great goals, the fans on there are pretty negative about the England performance. http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=407434&page=13

--- ----

As for that poster (Villus) who thinks Gerrard is only good, not great. If that is the case, surely you can come up with 5 midfielders in world who are better than him, yes? Actually there is at most only 1 midfielder in the world better than him (Ronaldinho), and even that is highly debatable based on recent performance). But since you said he was not great (and surely top 5 is considered "great"), your job is to list 5.

This should be fun. [:P]

Your statement of Gerrard being even close to ronnie just shows how much you really know about soccer!!!

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quote:Originally posted by amacpher

World cups: 3-2 Germany.

Euro Cups: 3-1 Germany.

I love how you go on about England's failure in the Euros but when it comes time to compare Italy with Germany, you only focus on world cups. :D

Consistency isn't your strong suit obviously.

Obviously you need to go back to school and learn to count its 4 cups to 3

and yes 3-1 Euro for Germany

I would think a world cup means a little more than a Euro, Why dont you look up HEAD to HEAD games and get back to me!

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quote:Originally posted by Forza_Italia

Obviously you need to go back to school and learn to count its 4 cups to 3

and yes 3-1 Euro for Germany

I would think a world cup means a little more than a Euro, Why dont you look up HEAD to HEAD games and get back to me!

But Dont get me wrong I respect Germany because they at least know how to win and have won something in the past 20 years. and I never said Italy were way Better I think the BIG 4 world powers in soccer are Brazil Italy Germany and Argentina then .. France

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quote:Originally posted by Forza_Italia

Your statement of Gerrard being even close to ronnie just shows how much you really know about soccer!!!

A comment like this coming from you, I don't worry about.

You've spent the last 4 pages teaching us how much you know about football. [8)]

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I love Argentina but they haven't done anything since 86....that's 20 years already. France got a very favourable draw this year as their first big game was Brasil at the quarterfinal stage, so I still don't consider them one of the big boys...especially after 2002.

I'm guessing Forza had an English ex-girlfriend who must surely have dumped him, hence his hate-on for them. I've met and run into tons of Brits and not one has ever been deluded in claiming they were the best team in the world. Even when they're playing well, they fancy their chances but always respect the opposition. Most of the Italians I've met though are always reminding themselves and everybody within earshot about how great they are and how much everybody else sucks.

BTW Forza, you still have the scoreline on the threadline.

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quote:Originally posted by Forza_Italia

Obviously you need to go back to school and learn to count its 4 cups to 3

and yes 3-1 Euro for Germany

I would think a world cup means a little more than a Euro, Why dont you look up HEAD to HEAD games and get back to me!

That's typical spazzo argument. Head to head doesnt tell the whole story. The USA has a winning head-to-head record against some quality European nations, including Portugal. That doesn't mean they are better than them. [:o)]

And the World Cup has greater prestige than the Euros, but the Euros are tougher to win. In the world cup you can get pretty far by just beating ordinary teams like Ghana, Australia, USA (oops), Ukraine, South Korea (oops), etc.

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quote:Originally posted by River City

I love Argentina but they haven't done anything since 86....that's 20 years already. France got a very favourable draw this year as their first big game was Brasil at the quarterfinal stage, so I still don't consider them one of the big boys...especially after 2002.

I'm guessing Forza had an English ex-girlfriend who must surely have dumped him, hence his hate-on for them. I've met and run into tons of Brits and not one has ever been deluded in claiming they were the best team in the world. Even when they're playing well, they fancy their chances but always respect the opposition. Most of the Italians I've met though are always reminding themselves and everybody within earshot about how great they are and how much everybody else sucks.

BTW Forza, you still have the scoreline on the threadline.

I wouldnt date and English girl if you paid me. If you know Italians so much you would know they like to eat, and If I dated an English girl i wuld starve cus they dont know how to cook.

go to BBC messageboard and see how they fill themeselves

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I suspect your ex girlfriend cheated on you with an italian River City......your comment about Gattuso being an average player is showing that you have poor soccer knowledge or an evident bias against italians like amacpher.

I agree that italians love to reminds us how great they are, but what about the brazilians after 2002??? And french were worst in 1998, maybe me being from Quebec and having to meet a lot of people from France helped that but OMG they were annoying....

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quote:Originally posted by amacpher

That's typical spazzo argument. Head to head doesnt tell the whole story. The USA has a winning head-to-head record against some quality European nations, including Portugal. That doesn't mean they are better than them. [:o)]

And the World Cup has greater prestige than the Euros, but the Euros are tougher to win. In the world cup you can get pretty far by just beating ordinary teams like Ghana, Australia, USA (oops), Ukraine, South Korea (oops), etc.

yes so easy thats why ENGLAND has HOW MANY????

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It's been a good thread. If you're passionate about a team and believe in them there will always be these types of discussions. As long as it doesn't get personal this will be a good place to get different views. We'll probably never be able to change eachothers views but we should learn to respect them.

It's been a very good year for myself as a fan of Italy and of the Whitecaps. I still need to see Canada at the World Cup 1 more time before I leave this world though.

I'm glad to hear that Forza also supports Canada. Something that many Euro snobs including Italian fans can't get ther head around. Well done Forza!

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Loyola - I love Italians...women primarily...the food....grappa...and the in-laws too.

My discussion here has focused on my opinion that Gattuso and Materazzi are not the world class players Forza believes them to be. But then again, Forza as an AC Milan will have a bias for Gattuso - who I do respect, but am under no illusion he is one of the best.

The Italians are not the only ones to be really annoying when their team wins something though....I think the Greeks are number one for that....the Italians come second.

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quote:Originally posted by Forza_Italia

...and If I dated an English girl i wuld starve cus they dont know how to cook.

Wow-so who's been filling me with great food all these years? I guess it's good my wife is now dual Canadian-English, since remaining just English would take away from her cooking skills. At least, in your eyes it would.

/lame arguement

//you suck at teh internet

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quote:Originally posted by Forza_Italia

yes so easy thats why ENGLAND has HOW MANY????

I didn't say the World Cup was easy to win. I said the Euros are more difficult to win. Look at who Greece beat in 2004 compared to who Brasil beat in 2002 or Italy beat in 2006 and then get back to me. [:I]

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quote:Originally posted by loyola

Forza has also represented Canada in a tournament in Italy from what I understand. BTW Forza, was that with the Canada U-17 2 yrs ago?

it was under 15 a while back in 1994. I used to play in the CSL/PSL as it was known back in the day. My friend Dave Diplacido plays on the lynx and my other friend Jim Brennan who plays on Team Canada played with my brother in teh NSL for Woodbridge :)

Never said Gattuso is one of the best I say he is above average, and is nominated in the top 30.

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