Swede Posted October 3, 2005 Share Posted October 3, 2005 No rumours but interested to see if people think there's a possibility here. I've seen a fair bit of Atiba and think he'd be a great player in the Championship and beyond into the Prem, and a great signing for our aging, pretty one-paced midfield at Ipswich. The midfield is built around attack but having a player like Atiba who can do that AND defend would be a huge plus !!! I believe that Hutchinson shares (or shared) the same agent as Jaime Peters as well. One worry is that we don't have a lot of money for transfer fees......unless we become the stepping-stone club towards a bigger deal somewhere. Do people think this is the sort of move and level of club that would be good for him ? Or is he beyond that stage already ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winnipeg Fury Posted October 3, 2005 Share Posted October 3, 2005 Ipswich would be a good move for Hutch. He may be able to pull off something bigger, but we will have to wait and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted October 3, 2005 Share Posted October 3, 2005 I would think that he can do better. He's been tipped for Serie A teams and mid-level EPL teams and he's supposedly one of the better mids in Sweden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted October 3, 2005 Share Posted October 3, 2005 Not sure how this happens in practice, but there might be an opportunity for a sign and loan. I would think Portman Road would be a better proving ground than the Brum reserves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted October 3, 2005 Share Posted October 3, 2005 Well I think that playing on youth or reserve sides is a preferable option to teir two first team action. There is ample precedent to suggest that its its quite rare for tier two players to move up and get a shot at first div. For canadian examples, look no futher than the case of Peschisolido ( Fulham), Brennan ( Norwich) and Mckenna ( Cottbus ). Neither of these players really ever moved up with their clubs when they got promoted did they? In Pesch's case with Fulham, he went back down to 1st div before the EPL season started. McKenna got sold to the SPL after playing the first game of the Bundesliga season for newly promoted Energie Cottbus. Brennan ( after being a regular for his side the previous year) hardly ever set foot on the pitch last season for Norwich in the Prem. That is why I remained sceptical regarding those Canucks who are in promotion territory in Germany ( see other post from last week ). With that in mind, count me as one was disappointed that Jaime Peters signed Ipswich to play first team rather than with Chelsea to play on their youth sides. Similarly, I have to be dissappointed after all the reports that we have read in past months on Atiba, that a teir two option is a possibility for him. I always hope for better things for our players. Teir two soccer is teir two soccer regardless of what its called. But I guess that this is what makes Voyageurs unique in the world of soccer supporters, we love our second division soccer more that anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted October 3, 2005 Share Posted October 3, 2005 Tier 2 players find it difficult to move up to tier 1 level typically because they are not good enough. Those that do make it have proven that they are. I doubt Canadian players are any different. Two that did are Julian de Guzman and Craig Forrest. And I am sure that there are other Canadians. I don't think it matters what route you take to the top level. If you are good enough, someone will pick you up. After all, this is a highly competitive sport and every team wants to win. As for Atiba, I think he is good enough to play at the top level. However, I seem to recall his agent saying that it wasn't likely he would be picked up until his work permit situation was cleared up. That would suggest going somewhere on the continent is more likely than to the UK. quote:Originally posted by Free kick Well I think that playing on youth or reserve sides is a preferable option to teir two first team action. There is ample precedent to suggest that its its quite rare for tier two players to move up and get a shot at first div. For canadian examples, look no futher than the case of Peschisolido ( Fulham), Brennan ( Norwich) and Mckenna ( Cottbus ). Neither of these players really ever moved up with their clubs when they got promoted did they? In Pesch's case with Fulham, he went back down to 1st div before the EPL season started. McKenna got sold to the SPL after playing the first game of the Bundesliga season for newly promoted Energie Cottbus. Brennan ( after being a regular for his side the previous year) hardly ever set foot on the pitch last season for Norwich in the Prem. That is why I remained sceptical regarding those Canucks who are in promotion territory in Germany ( see other post from last week ). With that in mind, count me as one was disappointed that Jaime Peters signed Ipswich to play first team rather than with Chelsea to play on their youth sides. Similarly, I have to be dissappointed after all the reports that we have read in past months on Atiba, that a teir two option is a possibility for him. I always hope for better things for our players. Teir two soccer is teir two soccer regardless of what its called. But I guess that this is what makes Voyageurs unique in the world of soccer supporters, we love our second division soccer more that anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted October 3, 2005 Share Posted October 3, 2005 C.O., you're too polite. How about the likes of Lampard, Rio, Terry, SWP, Crouch, O'Shea, Finnan -the lower divisions really ruined their careers. If only they had refused the loan deals! They might be making a living now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted October 3, 2005 Share Posted October 3, 2005 I have never said it here, but I thought Peters made a totally stupid move going for Ipswich over Chelsea or Man U, if those options really did exist. There is no replacement for proper development on a top team, top coaches, strong teammates. This is basically the difference between a player like Adu and a player like Messi, who were probably comparable three years ago. But since almost everyone on this board thought it was more important to get that proverbial "first team action"..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted October 3, 2005 Share Posted October 3, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S. I have never said it here, but I thought Peters made a totally stupid move going for Ipswich over Chelsea or Man U, if those options really did exist. There is no replacement for proper development on a top team, top coaches, strong teammates. This is basically the difference between a player like Adu and a player like Messi, who were probably comparable three years ago. But since almost everyone on this board thought it was more important to get that proverbial "first team action"..... I can't remember what I thought at the time and I'll be damned if I'll go back to look But, I am not sure that there is any one right way to do it, and the right route is probably as much an element of the player as the environment. Plenty of Big team "starlets" have floundered and gone nowhere of note. A Canadian example is Terry Dunfield who was with a pretty good club in Man City, starred as a youth and reserve player, and now sits in the stands at Bury hoping to get a short term contract for a 4th tier team. But the notion of "first team action", I agree is generally overvalued for a young player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canadiankick97 Posted October 3, 2005 Share Posted October 3, 2005 When Hirschfeld was playing with the Tottenham reserves many people here wanted to see him playing in lower divisions rather than with the reserves. I'm not trying to argue anything, just thought I'd bring it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S. I have never said it here, but I thought Peters made a totally stupid move going for Ipswich over Chelsea or Man U, if those options really did exist. There is no replacement for proper development on a top team, top coaches, strong teammates. This is basically the difference between a player like Adu and a player like Messi, who were probably comparable three years ago. But since almost everyone on this board thought it was more important to get that proverbial "first team action"..... I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Ipswich's reputation as a training centre where up and comers receive quality grooming is very, very, good. Excellent staff and excellent facilities has Ipswich punching well above their 1st division weight in this matter. Maybe I'm mistaking them for another club but I'd swear I've heard that tale many times over. Overall I'm in the real experience camp. But like Gordon's written, I don't believe there is any one right answer for everybody. Circumstance and situations mean everything. You'd hate for some of the lads to pick up "bad habits" playing in the 1st. Qualities that while useful in the 1st out of necessity aren't exactly going to carry you onto bigger and better things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Cheeta I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Ipswich's reputation as a training centre where up and comers receive quality grooming is very, very, good. Excellent staff and excellent facilities has Ipswich punching well above their 1st division weight in this matter. Maybe I'm mistaking them for another club but I'd swear I've heard that tale many times over. Overall I'm in the real experience camp. But like Gordon's written, I don't believe there is any one right answer for everybody. Circumstance and situations mean everything. You'd hate for some of the lads to pick up "bad habits" playing in the 1st. Qualities that while useful in the 1st out of necessity aren't exactly going to carry you onto bigger and better things. Okay, that is fair enough. If Ipswich is really a respected training centre for youth you could take that positively. I know for example that one of the best youth academies in Spain is at Sporting Gijon, who have been out of top flight for years now (though I recall them being up and in UEFA competitions a dozen years ago). You go there as a kid and you'll learn a lot. But the thing is there is another factor, which is a winning mentality and the pressure to win, that you can only learn at a top club. At Ipwich or Gijon you can coast a bit, the fans don't expect you to come out and help your club win the league or a Cup. And that is a key difference not even good development can compensate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone C.O., you're too polite. How about the likes of Lampard, Rio, Terry, SWP, Crouch, O'Shea, Finnan -the lower divisions really ruined their careers. If only they had refused the loan deals! They might be making a living now... Thats different and I have alluded to that in the past. Its one thing to be signed by a first div team and get loaned to a second Div side. But its totally different matter to sign with a lowere div side altogether. Thats why it is better to sign with the bigger club even if it is for development purposes since ay=t the very least you will end up loaned out to a d2 side Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Free kick Thats different and I have alluded to that in the past. Its one thing to be signed by a first div team and get loaned to a second Div side. But its totally different matter to sign with a lowere div side altogether. Thats why it is better to sign with the bigger club even if it is for development purposes since ay=t the very least you will end up loaned out to a d2 side Or loaned to a Div 3 or 4 side - as was the case with Dunfield. Ultimately, it depends upon the talent. Case in point Tranmere, who have sold two players during Hume's tenure with the team to Premier League teams, while Hume went to Div one. It suggests that the lower Division route is viable if you have the talent and that maybe, just maybe, Div 1 is as far as Hume will go. And thats the thing of it, when you are getting into your early 20s you change from a player with potential to a player whose potential is largely realized. For Peters, at 18, going to Div one is very different than Hutchinson, at 21 going there. I hope that Hutchinson's next move is to a stronger tier one League - and obviously one of the top 5 or 6 would be preferrable. But ultimatley, he will end up at the level his talent dictates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 Just to be clear, I have speculated on this in the past. But I think that one of the problems we face by not having a higher calibre of pro soccer is that many of the players who go overseas make professional decisions that are in their own best interest but not necessarily in the best interest of Canadian soccer and national teams as whole. The Peters example is a good one. The decision to sign with Ipswich was in his and his agent best interest financially. But how can you seriously play friendlies against sides like Spain ( even though we did well recently) , Germany, Czech republic..etc with players whose professional background is a tier below the competition and who have not been exposed to playing against palyers of that calibre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desigol Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 Lets hope Atiba can make it at Ipswich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 quote:Originally posted by Gordon Or loaned to a Div 3 or 4 side - as was the case with Dunfield. Ultimately, it depends upon the talent. Case in point Tranmere, who have sold two players during Hume's tenure with the team to Premier League teams, while Hume went to Div one. It suggests that the lower Division route is viable if you have the talent and that maybe, just maybe, Div 1 is as far as Hume will go. And thats the thing of it, when you are getting into your early 20s you change from a player with potential to a player whose potential is largely realized. For Peters, at 18, going to Div one is very different than Hutchinson, at 21 going there. I hope that Hutchinson's next move is to a stronger tier one League - and obviously one of the top 5 or 6 would be preferrable. But ultimatley, he will end up at the level his talent dictates. No doubt, ultimately it comes down to talent but how you develop your talent is another story. Dunfield got a chance to play at least one game in prem. Something deVos never did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youllneverwalkalone Posted October 4, 2005 Share Posted October 4, 2005 Fortunately, in Atiba's situation, he's played himself out of the price range of most second tier clubs. I'm not sure about the finances at Helsingborg, but I doubt they'll let him go for less than 1m pound up front. Even if Ipswich or Southampton or Palace could afford it, I doubt they'd spend on a guy from Sweden -mostly for PR reasons. quote:Originally posted by Free kick Thats different and I have alluded to that in the past. Its one thing to be signed by a first div team and get loaned to a second Div side. But its totally different matter to sign with a lowere div side altogether. Thats why it is better to sign with the bigger club even if it is for development purposes since ay=t the very least you will end up loaned out to a d2 side Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swede Posted October 4, 2005 Author Share Posted October 4, 2005 Just to add re: Ipswich and Peters. Our youth development pedigree is well known. And we are the current FA Youth Cup holders (U18) to reinforce that we are one of the best football academies in the country. Also I very much doubt that Ipswich was the best purely financial deal available - we haven't really got a pot to piss in. But I suppose with Jaime playing first-team matches and getting these bonuses it may well be. Thanks for all the feedback about Atiba though. Interesting - and it seems a lot may depend on the international/EU regulations, which I hadn't really considered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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