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The daughter of our favourite Austrian Football team owner has crossed the floor and joined the Liberals. An interesting if unexpected turn of events apparently anticipated only (but not mitigated) by the ever prescient Steven Harper.

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quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack

Still not as dumb as the Conservative Party for keeping their dreadful leader.

What do you find dreadful about Harper, other than the fact he's the Conservative leader?

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Liberals: do anything, say anything to hang on to power. And when in power, there are always carrots to buy loyalty or pay people off.

Actions like Stronach's just breed further cynicism. I'd have had more respect for Stronach if she'd left the Conservative caucus to sit as an independent. Guess that's just not how the business of parliament is done in Canada, though.

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Well she said the country should come before party politics (and ideology I might add), and I agree. I can't forgive Harper for dealing with the Bloc, what an idiot. Time for a new Conservative leader, hopefully one with half a clue and who realises Alberta public opinion does not equal Canadian public oipinion.

Ditty: Harper is dreadful becaues he is an ideologue who has no other election plan than "Vote for me , I'm not a Liberal" Belinda realises that ordinary folks have pressing needs that have to be addressed and Harper still hasnt clued into that or come up with any plan to do it. Poor is the leader who doesn't know how to listen too and address his peoples concerns.

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BC Supporter, Ontario is the biggest single province , economic giant yadda yadda so they have the most to lose if the country is negatively affected by politics. Even though people like me are extremely upset with the Liberals, we also dont want some clueless yahoo screwing up the country with divisive right-wing policies and deals with Separatists. We had a Conservative provincial governemnt for 10 years that pursued right-wing ideology without regard to the complexities and sensitivities of this province. Ontarians learnt their lesson and are now through with conservatism for the forseeable future. Maybe people out west feel they have nothing to lose by voting for Harper and co but here in Ontario many of us feel quite the opposite.

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quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

Such a shame that you support Martin.

I don't like Paul Martin, and I don't like Stephen Harper. I think they are both poor leaders and poor public speakers. It's this kind of blanket branding by Conservatives and their supporters that makes me not want to vote for their party. The sad thing, is that I'm the type of person the Conservative party needs to win over to gain power. But that will never happen with cardboard Harper as their leader.

I'm tired of politics being labeled so easily. I don't believe in left, right and centre. My own personal political belief is that all issues need to be looked at for their own worth and not through the pre-conceived notions of what side of the political spectrum you side with. I don't have time for ideologues any more, I have grown up a little.

I don't like Martin because he bullied his way into power. Also, I think he doesn't have any balls, and fails to take a definite stand on anything.

I don't like Harper because he is an ideologue and stands for a lot of things that I'm personally against. He also has the charisma of a rock. Also, if Harper was really concerned with having this government fall, he could have done so in an earlier budget vote, but instead he chose to prop up Martins government by pulling a bunch of MP's from that vote. Harper is lacking balls just like Martin.

Provincially, I'm thinking of voting for the Conservatives in the next election. Their new leader, John Tory is well-spoken and so far looks like someone with vision worth voting for.

So please don't brand me as a Martin supporter.

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just to clarify--and as River City pointed out in a different thread--not everyone in the west is convinced that the Conservatives are the way to go. In the more rural/small town ridings you'll likely see the Conservatives hold onto their seats; but in the urban areas (Vancouver in particular) you'll see a more progressive vote, either for the Liberals or the NDP. I sort of wish that the parts of BC and Saskatchewan that once voted NDP federally would get back to their humanist, caring roots again. Very odd to see Tommy Douglas' Saskatchewan voting for the very party that would dismantle universal public health care in a flash. People from Saskatchewan kick-ass. I think they'll return to their "help each other out" roots again someday.

Good point on the issue of unity, too. I guess for Harper that taking down the Liberals and gaining power is more important than Canadian unity. How dare he claim that the Liberal-NDP quasi-alliance is a "deal with the devil." he is in bed with Mssr. Duceppe, the very man who will split the country in two. And Harper has the gall to reduce Stronach's move to the Liberals as "ambition".

yes, stronach is hot. I agree with Canso.

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quote:Originally posted by RealGooner

BC Supporter, Ontario is the biggest single province , economic giant yadda yadda so they have the most to lose if the country is negatively affected by politics. Even though people like me are extremely upset with the Liberals, we also dont want some clueless yahoo screwing up the country with divisive right-wing policies and deals with Separatists. We had a Conservative provincial governemnt for 10 years that pursued right-wing ideology without regard to the complexities and sensitivities of this province. Ontarians learnt their lesson and are now through with conservatism for the forseeable future. Maybe people out west feel they have nothing to lose by voting for Harper and co but here in Ontario many of us feel quite the opposite.

Ontario has the most to lose if the country is negatively affected by politics? Get over yourself, my friend, that's a silly generalization. Oh, and I'm not a Conservative supporter, not by a long stretch. Just because the Conservatives are an undesirable political option does not make the Liberals a better one, in my view.

I repeat: I would have had more respect for Stronach if she'd resigned from the Conservatives to sit as an independent, rather than crawl into bed with the same people who precipitated the current crisis in the first place.

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quote:Originally posted by BC supporter

Liberals: do anything, say anything to hang on to power. And when in power, there are always carrots to buy loyalty or pay people off.

Actions like Stronach's just breed further cynicism. I'd have had more respect for Stronach if she'd left the Conservative caucus to sit as an independent. Guess that's just not how the business of parliament is done in Canada, though.

I think the shenanigans of the Conservatives and Bloc have done a hell of a lot more towards breeding cynicism than this. In fact, I think she will come off as principled and show well as a result, unlike his bitterness, Steven Harper ("I was just telling my wife Belinda is power mad").

And canso, I am thinking expensive french silk, very naughty, but tasteful. We will know for sure if her boyfriend, Peter McKay, follows her. Any man can resist an attractive millionaire daughter of a billionaire, but none can resist an attractive miilionaire daughter of a billionaire who wears naughty french lingerie.

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Amen Massive Attack. What the conservative party needs is a John Tory type of character at the Federal level. A reasonable person who can make decisions by evaluating situations and making common sense decisions. Not this one-right-wing size fits all approach of Harper. The Ontario Conservatives have seen the light, its time the Federal Reform oh sorry Conservative party does the same. Belinda SHOULD have been the perfect Conservative leader but as usual they blew it with their hardline partisan wannabe-Republican approach to everthing. Will they ever learn?

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quote:Originally posted by RealGooner

Amen Massive Attack. What the conservative party needs is a John Tory type of character at the Federal level. A reasonable person who can make decisions by evaluating situations and making common sense decisions. Not this one-right-wing size fits all approach of Harper. The Ontario Conservatives have seen the light, its time the Federal Reform oh sorry Conservative party does the same. Belinda SHOULD have been the perfect Conservative leader but as usual they blew it with their hardline partisan wannabe-Republican approach to everthing. Will they ever learn?

Yeah but she wasn't ready to be leader when she ran. I don't like Harper in the least but between him, her and two-tier Tony, he was the best candidate IMHO.

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BC Supporter, calm down its just a question of size both economic and population wise. Ontario is bigger than the entire West population wise, and probably economically too. More people (numbers) will be affected by the country breaking up here than in say, Saskatchewan. Is that difficult for you to comprehend? Its not meant as a slight, its just reality, even if u can't handle it.

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quote:Originally posted by RealGooner

BC Supporter, calm down its just a question of size both economic and population wise. Ontario is bigger than the entire West population wise, and probably economically too. More people (numbers) will be affected by the country breaking up here than in say, Saskatchewan. Is that difficult for you to comprehend? Its not meant as a slight, its just reality, even if u can't handle it.

Hey, its about quality rather than quantity and the net harm to 1 million fine saskatchewanites will always be greater than the net harm done to 13 million mediocre Ontarians. In anything. :D[^]

Woah, easy there guys, just a little humour! Put down the torches! And the pitchforks! Oh you greating peasants and your resistence to progress. No don't kill the monster! No he just looks scary. Really, he is a nice guy once you scrape of the neo-con veneer. He's not bad, he's just drawn that way!

Edit: Since when does F**king come out as "greating" in a text editor? I'll agree, F**king is great - nothing better really, but F**king does not = Greating. So "greating peasants" equals "F**cking peasants" when you read (if you didn't give up at the lame humour attempt already.

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Is it possible to properly say, "I respect an individual woman because of her brains, character and qualities as a human being" AND then say, "I'd love to see her in french underwear?"

I certainly hope so.

--------------

To be clear, even if the Liberal's lose the next election, they will not become extinct. They will form government again, and I suspect it will not take very long for that to happen. Primarily, of course, because few see Harper or Layton (or their parties) as a good alternative. Most of us find the Liberals suspect and may feel that Martin has dithered too long and in too many areas, but many of us cannot vote for a Conservative party led by Harper. We need a Progressive Conservative party again. A real alternative that gives a damn about the entire country, that has the sort of self-esteem that fights for Canada for the sake of Canada with Canadian ideas and Canadian solutions, not a party that is a blander subsidiary of the Republican Part of the US of A. (this is the perception of Harper and his party. If this is NOT what they are, then they've done a very poor job of getting their brand across.) Anyhow, Stronach's move could be seen years from now as the sort of step that fended off the splitting of the country, that curbed very dangerous Separatist momentum. She is socially progressive and fiscally conservative: sounds exactly like the Mr Martin, doesn't it? Sounds like a better fit for her in many ways.

Prediction: Two elections from now, when Mr Manley or Mckenna or Tobin or Rock become the Prime Minister of Canada, Belinda Stronach will become the Minister of Finance.

This is a good discussion, guys. Thanks.

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I'm thinking she dumped McKay before she crossed over. Woman with that much ambition needs to be on top...of the situation that is. Unless he comes crawling after her cap in hand, my guess she's making new friends. One glimpse of thigh and Jack Layton is saying Ciao Olivia, I'm gonna paint my moustache a new color!

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Its when I hear about stuff like this that I become further apolitical. I have to agree with BC Supporter, I (and from what I've heard thus far, most people) would have more respect for her if she resigned and became an independant rather than jumping parties (and presumably political ideologies & philosophies) at the drop of a hat in a cynical move to gain personal power.

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Beaver and others,

I agree with you, the right in this country has rarely cared much about the Quebec question, nor the consequences of its actions in that regard. But I disagree that the Conservatives have a monopoly on dangerous politicking in the face of heightened sovereigntist sentiment.

The Liberals have always been more pragmatic than ideological. We know this. But that pragmatism has often (and especially more recently) come at the expense of national unity. The Liberals *love* to dangle separatism in front of left-leaning Canadians in order to scare them into voting Liberal. It's easy to label the Conservatives as cold-heated bastards who would be willing to *gasp* get cozy with the separatists for their own power-hungry needs. But what is not touched upon is how these scare tactics affect separatism.

Chantal Hebert wrote a good piece a few weeks ago touching on this. She talked about how the Liberals scare tactics, and their ultimate aim of retaining power by scaring the country into voting Liberal by pointing to the Bloc and Cons, will probably do more to hurt national unity then anything else. Martin isn't thinking about the good of the country. He's thinking about the good of the Liberals. His labelling the Conservatives as a party hostile to Quebec and unworthy of representing Quebec values puts Quebec in severe jeapordy considering it could be the Conservatives who will be the Fedarlist representatives when the next referendum is called. In other words, in trying to induce the scare card, Martin is single handidly destroying the Federal cause under the scope of: If the Liberals don't represent Fedarlism, then no one can - even if it means the separation of Quebec.

The Liberals show a dangerous lack of foresight in their labelling of the Conservatives as enemies of Quebec. Even just bringing Separation and national unity back into the public dialogic is dangerous.

Whether or not Quebeckers are actually talking about separation seems unimportant to the Liberals. What really matters is the *idea* that they are talking about it, and how that affects the Rest of Canada. My view is that, if separation is not on the minds of Quebeckers, keep it that way! Yet the Liberals, whenever they are in a bind, are intent on resuming the national unity debate whenever it fits their needs, whether or not it it is good for the Fedaralist cause in Quebec or not.

Stephen Dion put it best when he characterized the Liberal agenda as it was around the last referendum. I'm heavily paraphrasing here, but if I remember correctly, he said something along the lines of, While many Quebeckers wern't warm to the idea of separation, the Liberals, in playing up the threat of separation, basically convinced these people that separation was a good thing. In other words, if the government says we should be close to separating, well, maybe we should!

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