Belinda

[analyst]

The Conservatives have some real reactionary unpleasant MPs, like Darrell Stinson, some foolish people like Germant Grewal, and many right wing idealogues who will destroy social programs in Canada - like the American born key advisor Tom Flanagan and his disciples Stockwell Day and Stephen Harper. They would destroy Canada, much as the Bloc would do if given a chance.

The Liberals need to be punished for their corruption, and the best way is to put a bunch of the guilty ones behind bars. White collar criminals also deserve jail time. A fine or being defeated in an election is not enough punishment for white collar criminals, who are educated, well-off to start with, and who should know better. Jail sentences will deter future abuse.

[The Beaver]

quote:Originally posted by analyst

The Conservatives have some real reactionary unpleasant MPs, like Darrell Stinson, some foolish people like Germant Grewal, and many right wing idealogues who will destroy social programs in Canada - like the American born key advisor Tom Flanagan and his disciples Stockwell Day and Stephen Harper. They would destroy Canada, much as the Bloc would do if given a chance.

The Liberals need to be punished for their corruption, and the best way is to put a bunch of the guilty ones behind bars. White collar criminals also deserve jail time. A fine or being defeated in an election is not enough punishment for white collar criminals, who are educated, well-off to start with, and who should know better. Jail sentences will deter future abuse.

Very good points! I've always wondered how it made any sense to punish the Liberals by voting for the current brand of Conservatives when in fact all we'd be doing is punishing ourselves. And, considering that Harper and his Conservatives are always on about personal responsibility and accountability, it gets a bit tiresome hearing the claim that all Liberals must be punished for the criminal action of a few. Does not seem to be fair even in terms of their own ideology. But then again, can we fault them for playing politics?

It gives me the shivers hearing that Harper's key advisor is Flanagan.

[Reza]

I actually think Rona Ambrose is Conservative's best chance. Not sure if she speaks French, but she totally goes against the Conservative image. It is no wonder she is now the face of the party. Also, unlike Belinda who at times seems a bit clueless or out of touch, Rona seems very capable.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by The Beaver

Well, as unfortunate and as unfair as DoyleG and many others will find this, it is pretty clear that the Conservative Party has not done a good job of changing how Canadians in general perceive them, and as a result need to do more to change this perception, which means electing a leader who is not from Alberta for starters, and likely not from anywhere in the west unless you pick some interesting character from urban Vancouver--none of the existing BC Conservative MPs fit the bill--somebody like the Premier, Gordon Campbell. Problem with Campbell is that he barely has the chops to pull it off in BC; he won't succeed at the Federal level. He's too thin.

The only people need changing are Canadians. Anytime a debate from health care to military isssues comes up, Canadians have no freakin clue about reality. Martin won the 2004 election on paranoia and never offered anything credible.

Harper was considered the biggeest winner in the 2004 debates. Seems Canadians are afraid of reality.

quote:Originally posted by The Beaver

So, if how the Conservatives are perceived cannot be truly mended by electing a leader from the West--and I cannot see how it can, unfortunately--then I'd recommend that the party look to Ontario or the Maritimes. I know this may seem really unfair, but we are dealing with the realities of perception. Remember, despite the weak leadership so far from Martin, and the Sponsorship Scandal and the Gomery Commission, Harper's Conservatives have not made any real gains in the polls. And the biggest reason--perhaps the only reason of heft and merit--is because Canadians say they do not trust or like Mr Harper and what he represents. It doesn't even matter that the Conservatives are trying to take a moderate stance, nobody believes Harper and thus they do not believe the party. They feel that this is an Alberta party focussed on Alberta values. That is the perception. And people vote based on that alone: perception.

No. It's all about paranoia. Canadians know nothing about their true selves. Once again, it's so sad to see how stupid Canadians are.

quote:Originally posted by The BeaverThis is damned simple stuff: Harper needs to step down soon and the party needs to find somebody like Bernard Lord or some other non-Western, respected Tory. Stronach could have been that. McKay does not have the je ne sais quoi to be it. Harper is a dead wrong choice. David Orchard would have been a very interesting leader: The sort that would make both the Liberals AND NDP nervous. But the Conservatives showed him what they thought of his brand of moderate (and often visionary) Conservatism. Too bad; he could have been interesting.

Orhard is a self serving little bastard. he went around ruing the PC leadership selling memberships to anyone who wanted one. All Orchard would've done would be to send the bulk of the PC's support, which has always been Blue Tory, right into the hands of the Alliance.

[WilfPTheReal99]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

The only people need changing are Canadians. Anytime a debate from health care to military isssues comes up, Canadians have no freakin clue about reality. Martin won the 2004 election on paranoia and never offered anything credible.

Harper was considered the biggeest winner in the 2004 debates. Seems Canadians are afraid of reality.

No. It's all about paranoia. Canadians know nothing about their true selves. Once again, it's so sad to see how stupid Canadians are.

Orhard is a self serving little bastard. he went around ruing the PC leadership selling memberships to anyone who wanted one. All Orchard would've done would be to send the bulk of the PC's support, which has always been Blue Tory, right into the hands of the Alliance.

Funny how the majority of Canadians are just too 'stupid' to get 'reality'. A bit ironic, no?

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by WilfPTheReal99

Funny how the majority of Canadians are just too 'stupid' to get 'reality'. A bit ironic, no?

Yes. Luckily for Canada he's got it all figured out.

DoyleG for PM! [8)]

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by Reza

I actually think Rona Ambrose is Conservative's best chance. Not sure if she speaks French, but she totally goes against the Conservative image. It is no wonder she is now the face of the party. Also, unlike Belinda who at times seems a bit clueless or out of touch, Rona seems very capable.

Its not just "now" though. Harper has been pushing out Stronach for some time and using Ambrose in the role that Stronach would reasonably have expected for herself. The more I here about the relationship between HArpers and Stronach it is clear that while Stronach clearly had ambitions to lead, Harper seems to have been amazingly insecure about those ambitions - either because he is an insecure person, or he was afraid of the moderate element of Ms. Stronach's politics.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

No. It's all about paranoia. Canadians know nothing about their true selves. Once again, it's so sad to see how stupid Canadians are.

I think you've just summed up why this version of the Conservatives can't do squat. We have practically the perfect storm for sweeping out the the Liberals yet the Conservatives continue to languish behind the liberals. Part of that is the Quebec Legacy of the last time the Conservatives decided to play with the seperatists and part of that is this notion that the rest of us (70%) are stupid and have no idea of our real selves. When the Conservatives can get past that as a party, perhaps then Canadians will put their trust in them.

From were I am sitting, Canadians seem much smarter than the Conservatives. They want to wait until the facts are in before passing judgement, they had suspicions that the conservatives were not in tune with their values, and the last 2 weeks have proven them right, and they recognize that ad scam - the allegations and the taint - were present during the last election so the umbrage coming out now is more about oportunism and finally they can do the math and see that there is no way that Steven Harper can win enough seats under event the most optimistic scenario to form a minority government without relying on the Bloc. If Canadians are stupid, we are stup[id like a fox.

[Reza]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

Its not just "now" though. Harper has been pushing out Stronach for some time and using Ambrose in the role that Stronach would reasonably have expected for herself. The more I here about the relationship between HArpers and Stronach it is clear that while Stronach clearly had ambitions to lead, Harper seems to have been amazingly insecure about those ambitions - either because he is an insecure person, or he was afraid of the moderate element of Ms. Stronach's politics.

They probably had quite a bit of rivalry, much like Chretien and Martin, and they probably had people like Kinsella and the Martin mob adding fuel to the fire. Off course, for Belinda to come out of nowhere and demand respect/power when some people in that party had spent over a decade building it, was off course going to cause friction. It was the same problem with Chretien and Martin in 1989 , one being a party stalwart with 30 years of experience and the other demanding power because of his father's name. That, coupled with her socially liberal views probably helped the move.

[RealGooner]

Dont worry dumb Canadians, father Doyle G knows best. Lets just let Harper set up a wonderful paternalistic neo-fascist regime and all will be well.

[The Beaver]

"If Canadians are stupid, we are stup[id like a fox." -- Gordon

Hey, this is my choice for quote of the week.

By the way, does anybody here know that the Conservatives really stand for? They has a policy convention a couple of months ago and I still have not heard a single thing about what their policy platform will look like. All I know is that they feel the Liberals have lost their moral authority to govern, that the deal made with the NDP is a deal with the devil, that Stronach is an attractive ditz, whore, and that they wanted to force an election (but not out of ambition).

yes, Ambrose seems a much stronger thinker--on the surface--than Stronach, but once again she is an Alberta Conservative, and even if she is more PC than Alliance, she will have quite the up hill battle to prove that she isn't "just another one of those Alberta Conservatives."

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

I think you've just summed up why this version of the Conservatives can't do squat. We have practically the perfect storm for sweeping out the the Liberals yet the Conservatives continue to languish behind the liberals. Part of that is the Quebec Legacy of the last time the Conservatives decided to play with the seperatists and part of that is this notion that the rest of us (70%) are stupid and have no idea of our real selves. When the Conservatives can get past that as a party, perhaps then Canadians will put their trust in them.

The Conservatives can change all they want but it won't do a matter of difference as long as the Liberals continue to play the paranoia card. Sepratisim in Quebec is built on the ideal that they still will have some "association" with Canada. Sepratists fear more from a Conservative gov't since such a government would concede to their demands for such an association.

Duceppe, unlike Parzeau and Laundry, knows that an independent Quebec is a difficult sell since in order forit to work, they would have get the support of Anglophone and Allophone elements. So what does Duceppe do? He turns the BQ into a Quebec version of the Reform Party. Quebec and the West have a lot in common and feel they don't need to be under one banner in order to achieve it. They certainly feel better being represented by the Bloc rather than the Liberals or even a Red Tory Conservative gov't.

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

From were I am sitting, Canadians seem much smarter than the Conservatives. They want to wait until the facts are in before passing judgement, they had suspicions that the conservatives were not in tune with their values, and the last 2 weeks have proven them right, and they recognize that ad scam - the allegations and the taint - were present during the last election so the umbrage coming out now is more about oportunism and finally they can do the math and see that there is no way that Steven Harper can win enough seats under event the most optimistic scenario to form a minority government without relying on the Bloc. If Canadians are stupid, we are stup[id like a fox.

Canadians are stupid was one can be. Canadians eat up the fear of "two tier health care" from Martin's Liberals and Layton's NDP. Yet the kind of health care thet Layton and Martin fear as being "American" is actually a widespread practice in the western world. "Two Tier Health Care" is about improving services and the current system only ensures that improvements in quality aren't made and problems continue.

The Conservatives destroy health care? The NDP slashed health care in Saskatchewan and allowed private facilities to flourish in BC. Do we need to go into how the Provincial Liberal governments also slash funding to hospitals. But I guess they wouldn't make good scapegoats like a Conservatvie now would they?

And how much do Canadian know about military matters? Not much it seems. They by into the stupid myth of "peacekeeping" and end up looking like fools when they find out that a solider is killed on such a mission. They cry that things like this shouldn't happen on a "peacekeeping" mission. Canadians certainly don't like the idea of Canadian soldiers killing to protect people from slaughter. Where was the outcry from the public when the Liberals covered up the work that 2 PPCLI did in Medak when they stopped a act of genocide by killing Croat soldiers? This is the same Canadian public that treats Rememberance Day as nothing more than a day off from school or work.

The Liberals disband the Airborne Regiment over a bunch of old videotapes featuring people who were long booted out of the Airborne before the tapes even surfaced. Yet the Liberals dibanded it and basically wrecked the morale of the armed forces. They never also explained why they used the Airborne Regiment as guinea pigs for testing a new anti-Malarial drug. Canadian soldiers will be reminded of that regardless of how many years go by. Sadly, Canadians don't want to believe that adn decide to have artwork of the Somalia put into the War Museum.

Much like the EH-101 helicopters, the Liberals have yet explain why they screwed up on either account. The Liberals even went to the point of "dumbing down" the requirements for a Maritime Helicopter when the orginal standards saw the EH-101 come out as the winner.

[RealGooner]

Doyle, it appears that many in the Conservative hierarchy share your view that Canadians are stupid. Why else would they think people in Central Canada would flock to a party they know little about other than that they are not the Liberals, and they like to make deals with the party that hates Canada. We may be stupid but Conservatives are complete idiots for thinking that ploy would work.

[The Beaver]

"Canadians are stupid was one can be. Canadians eat up the fear of "two tier health care" from Martin's Liberals and Layton's NDP. Yet the kind of health care thet Layton and Martin fear as being "American" is actually a widespread practice in the western world. "Two Tier Health Care" is about improving services and the current system only ensures that improvements in quality aren't made and problems continue." -- DoyleG

You know what, I don't think Canadians are as scared of a two-tier health system as one might think. In fact, I know many liberal thinkers who feel that just such a system may prove beneficial for ALL Canadians, and I for one wish we could examine and debate the realities more fully. The difficulty with the Conservatives, however, is that many Canadians perceive that they want to privatize healthy entirely. Just because many countries in the Western world practice some variation of a two-tier system does not necessarily make it good or useful or right for ALL Canadians. The US system, which is primarily privatized, is an abomination when it comes to providing health care for ALL Americans. Only the wealthy or those with good company plans can afford care. More than 45% of Americans have no coverage, and the single largest reason individuals in the US are forced to claim personal bankrupty is because of health care costs. The US always claims that it takes care of its own, but this is not remotely true when it comes to health care. A well-regulated and often reformed two-tier system could benefit ALL Canadians, but a hell of a lot more thought and planning has to go into this.

One note: The BC Liberals are NOT even remotely similar to the Federal Liberals. Perhaps the Ontario Liberals share more in common with the Federal brand, but Gordon Campbell's Liberals are barely a hair to the left of the likes of Mr Klein. They are, in a manner of speaking, wolves in sheeps clothing.

[RealGooner]

Beaver, due to the recent very public spat between the McGuinty Liberals and the Feds over equalization, there is a great deal of bad blood between the Fed libs and the Ontario Libs.

[Marc]

quote:Originally posted by The Beaver

"The difficulty with the Conservatives, however, is that many Canadians perceive that they want to privatize healthy entirely.

The difficulty with the Conservatives is that they don't even know what they stand for.

Harper said he’d uphold the principles of the Canada Health Act. However, before that he was in favour of improving the system, not necessarily privatization, but maybe, if it worked (during the debate IIRC.) Yet his history shows that he has been avowedly in favour of two-tiered health care and even outright privatization. Yet before that, Stockwell Day specifically held up a that ‘sign’ stating no to two tiered health care.

Same with Kyoto…news is that Harper supports it. Yet before, he was spouting a ‘made-in-Canada’ solution, which had no details. And before that, he really wasn’t advocating for greenhouse gas emission solutions at all.

So what's the plan?

[Marc]

The Conservatives label the Lib-NDP deal as a fiscally-irresponsible deal with the devil. Yet Harper confirms with the Premiers that the provincially-focused Lib-NDP spending items will continue to be funded as per the agreements.

The whole Lib-NDP deal was of the Conservatives’ own making. In the end, they voted in favour of the budget to which they originally agreed – making the whole Lib-NDP deal unnecessary!

If they hadn’t played parliamentary chicken trying to capitalize on a perceived chance of governing, they wouldn’t have had this ‘irresponsible fiscal spending’ that they disapprove of (but promise not to scrap if elected.)

[brandon]

i have to laugh when i hear people talking about a two-tier health care system in this country -- oh no the evil conservatives will bring in that system. Please! national health care is the sacred cow that no party with plans to form government would ever touch. simply because the vast vast majority would not accept any moves to a private system. in fact the liberals have done more harm to healthcare over the last 10 years by reducing money to the provinces than any previous government since its inception fifty years ago. oh and by the way when you actually think about it, all the rich people in this country have to do when they dont want to be put on a waiting list for a necessary surgery, a cosmetic surgery or be treated in decrepit old hospitals with outdated or insufficient diagnostic machinery is hop in their car, drive across the line and shell out the money--kinda sounds like a two-tiered system doesnt it? and lets see, under who's watch has it been that the healthcare system in this country has gotten to the point that this is happening? that would be the liberal party of canada

[Loud Mouth Soup]

There already is two-tier health care in this country, to support brandon's comments. Anyone who believes there isn't is only fooling themself.

The Liberals would have you believe there isn't and anyone else in power would be bad for health care.

What a load of bull-poopy-they say that to cling on to power at any cost.

[brandon]

....the rant continues....on the topic of mp's switching parties this pisses me off, when i vote for someone i dont want them going to ottawa and representing their polical party they are there to represent their constituents and to do right by them not what the party thinks is poltically expedient i dont give a rats ass about what some schmoe in the greater toronto area feels is best for their interests or what some guy in butt fuq alberta feels is the best direction to take a politcal party the parliamentary system does not allow for any sort of individualism you tow the party line and vote for whats in the best interest of ontario and quebec or youre history. thats why i cant believe anybody in this province would ever vote liberal or for a mulroney style conservative party. even this particular brand of conservatives will only have a very short shelf life because a: the leader is way to right of centre for the majority of canadians and b: he is not from central canada which rules him out of the old boys clubs to which the media establishment and old politcal money belong to. phewww ....when is the next Canada game? i need to read something on this board thats gonna make me slightly</u> less angry;)

[argh1]

What I'll take away from all this is the Peter McKay quote: "I'm going home to take the dog for a walk...at least dogs are loyal". Priceless as rememberable as Trudeau's "I went for a walk in the snow"

If I was you Pete, I'd get me a diplomatic or Crown Corp appointment, bud.

Daddys coat-tails got you here but......ya f***ked up mister. You've shown you can be bought in that whole unite the right fiasco or start being a practicing whatever degree you have. You and Dominic LeBlanc have gone as far as daddys connections can take ya. Maybe you guys should partner up.

EDIT: Also I'm sure in this whole McKay/Stronach thing. That it's mostly playing to the press and or grass roots memebers. Does any-one truly believe it was all a secret or did all of a sudden did they stop talking.My domestic Minister of Finance can't buy toilet paper with-out talking about it.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by Reza

They probably had quite a bit of rivalry, much like Chretien and Martin, and they probably had people like Kinsella and the Martin mob adding fuel to the fire. Off course, for Belinda to come out of nowhere and demand respect/power when some people in that party had spent over a decade building it, was off course going to cause friction.

See, I think that is the real reason, the part about the decade building the party I mean. But that gets to the gist of why Canadians don't trust the Conservatives though doesn't it? This was allegedly a merger between a party of 150 years and a party fo 20 years. The "over a decade building it" only applies if the Reform party was co-opting the progressive conservatives. Which I think was the real agenda. However, if it wasn't, then Belinda, who was a integral part of mkaing the merger happen, where Manning, Day and Harper had all failed, and whom ran a decent second in the leadsership race was entitled to respect and power. That is the way politics works: if you deliver the bacon, you get to share in the meal.

As for Rona, I saw her on a panel discussion on newsworld the other day, and if she the face of "moderate" conservatism and the best they have to offer, then the conservatives are in deep deep trouble.

[Reza]

But lately it seems that politics has changed. I hope the next group doesn't follow the Martin or Harper lead though and I deeply believe that in 2-3 years time, there will be new faces in these two parties. Martin rolled over everyone, practically kicked a lot of people out of the party, while he himself was rewarded with the 2nd highest position in the government by his old rival in '93. Harper pretty much did the same I feel, to his main leadership rival.

As for merger, it's hard to reaslistically expect a real merger. Even in corporate world, most mergers are really take-overs. When you have a party of 14 MPs with three or four key ones leaving and party of 60 people (all staying), it's clearly a takeover.

As for Rona, well, at least she is attractive :-) and doesn't have the cold mean style in her approach. She does seem to be quite a bit better than some of the other alternatives, i think.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

The Conservatives can change all they want but it won't do a matter of difference as long as the Liberals continue to play the paranoia card. Sepratisim in Quebec is built on the ideal that they still will have some "association" with Canada. Sepratists fear more from a Conservative gov't since such a government would concede to their demands for such an association.</u>

No Gavin, they just have to make a clean break and stop with the continual statements, policies and general "there's smoke, there's flames but there ain't no fire" misdirection.

As for the sentence in your quote that I have choosen to underline and italicized, I too think that to be the case. As, apparently do most canadians. Hence the failure of the conservatives to make any gains despite the obvious Liberal corruption. Read it Gavin, think about what that actually means, then come here and try to explain how that is in touch with most canadians.

You see Gavin, when th old PCs existed, they occasionally gained power. That is because they were close enough to where Canadains were that they were not a threat. I am pretty sure that most canadian wish there was a palatable alternative to the liberals, because contrary to your delusions of intellectual superiority over the rest of canada, nonone is going to be too happy about voting for a party that has stolen $30-40 million from us. But out core values are woth more to us than S30-40 millions and that is what the conservatives threaten.

Now Doyle, it is no secret that I am a New Democrat. And I don't really give a rats a$$ what you think about that or the party generally. But one thing I have realized is that the NDP runs ahead of canadians in a lot of the values and social issues. That means we will perpetually be on the outside looking in. I am OK with that. That isn't about intelligence, its about recognizing and respecting the views, values and comfort zones of others. I don't think that people who don't vote NDP are morons, although there are those in the party that do, simply because I recognize that even though we are "right", and even though all of the economic hooey that gets tossed at us by the conservatives and liberals is deada$$ wrong, the bottom line is that Canadians are not wanting to buy what we are selling.

I've lived in every province from Ontario west, I've lived in the Us and I've lived in England, and I've seen good and bad governements of all political stripes. The two best being Peter Lougheed in Alberta and Alan Blakney in Saskatchewan. Opposite ends of the Canadian spectrum, but both doing a very good job running a government. I've seen fiscal conservative rack up the wrost budget deficits in Canada, and I've seen the media and business community go to town on Bob Rae's "record deficit" while 6 other provinces - all conservative - and the federal governement ran up worst in per capita terms, including your beloved Alberta. I've seen far to many things to get all bent out of shape over a defection, endless Liberal governments or rage against the stupidity of canadians. Really Doyle, you need a reality check. The issues you list as importanat to you are all legit concerns - and hardly unique to the conservatives. But there is no way that you are going to get a conservative party elected until the conservatives get believably in line with the rest of canada on social issues. Two-tier healthcare is a red herring. It already exists, it always has. We just don't trust the conservatives with the health care file because of endless policy statements, verbal statements, written statements that makes it clear that the conservatives will go further down that path than we want. And that is just prudence, not paranoia.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by Reza

But lately it seems that politics has changed. I hope the next group doesn't follow the Martin or Harper lead though and I deeply believe that in 2-3 years time, there will be new faces in these two parties. Martin rolled over everyone, practically kicked a lot of people out of the party, while he himself was rewarded with the 2nd highest position in the government by his old rival in '93. Harper pretty much did the same I feel, to his main leadership rival.

That is true, but the good thing is that neither has benefitted from such a style. Martin, who should have been able to ride his Finance Minister performance to the leadership and comfortable majorities and Harper who has basically ensured that he will never be Prime Minister. Half the old PC support did not come over after the meger. 20 lucky seats and offical opposition status only hides the piss poor performance in that regard. Both have been vindictive winners, and both have paid for it. Surely there are people in the two parties smart enough to figure that out?