The Coach Posted June 7, 2003 Share Posted June 7, 2003 quote:Originally posted by DoyleG You have two good examples looking at the German team of this. Gerald Asamoah could have played with Ghana. Klose could have chosen to play with Poland. Vieri with Australia and Olisadebe with Nigeria. Some of the American players could have decided to play with their birth country. Just to add a little on the German team, Oliver Neuville could have play for Switzerland. He was born in Locarno and played for Servette Genève from 92 to 96. The Coach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alberto7 Posted June 7, 2003 Share Posted June 7, 2003 Hi all, Ronald King told me at tonight's game that the rumors are true and that the CSA will ask FIFA for an exemption. The thinking is that He defected from Cuba and is now a Canadian citizen and has no intention of ever going back there. If what he told me is indeed true, I fear the CSA will become the laughingstock of the soccer world. How can FIFA make an exception? If they allowed this, every Tom, Dick or Harry would ask for an exemption and try to play for a "better" country. Totally ridiculous if you ask me. Albert Albert Ohayon Montreal match reporter, a-league.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimglow Posted June 7, 2003 Share Posted June 7, 2003 No, I wasnt' getting confused, I was just making the point that FIFA's eligibility rules have become a joke, and many of you have supplied numerous examples of this. I badly worded the Veron thing. He never claimed to be Italian but claimed he had Italian heritage. Well, I have French heritage but they came over with Jacques Cartier...does that mean I can play for France? (rhetorical question) Mimglow, Ottawa _________________________ Where are the weapons of mass destruction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted June 7, 2003 Share Posted June 7, 2003 From what I read, Marcel DeJong was Born in Newmarket, Ontario and moved to the Netherlands sometime before his 5th Birthday. His parents had been in Canada for about 20 years prior to that. so it is not the same as Bircham. But it is an interesting subject. Who should we be most upset about losing to other countries and who should we consider Canadian enough to consider for our national team? The converse of De Jonge is Johnny Van t'Schip who was born in Canada and moved to the Netherlands at 10 and then played for the Netherlands in the late '80s and early '90s. The next question is would we be so upset with Hargreaves if at 18, he moved to the UK with his family? My sense is that we all have a notion of who is Canadian and who is not. My sense is that if the rules allow a player to qualify for Canada, let him play. There is always going to be controversy and differences of opinion. quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack I think Mimglow is getting confused with playing in a national league, and playing for a national team. Veron used an Italian heritage line (wrongfully) so that he wouldn't be counted as a foriegner on Lazio's line up. A lot of players gain EU passports because their parents or grandparents were from Europe. A lot of Canadians get into Europe this way. But this case is for rules clubs must adhere to because of their own FA. Camoranesi, or Bircham, played for countries they weren't born in (just like that WHORE from Calgary). Recently, hasn't Canada relied on a few more players like Bircham. Marcel De Jong from the PSV youth system played in the U-20 qualifying tournament in B.C. I believe that was his first time in Canada. If Sebrango now lives in Canada, then let him play for Canada (if he earns it) "It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees." Emiliano Zapata Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dave Posted June 7, 2003 Share Posted June 7, 2003 I've never seen Sebrango play, so let me ask this: How good is he, really? In other words, why even bother trying to get him for the nats? Obviously he isn't moving ahead of Rad or DD on the depth chart. In my opinion, I can't see him being chosen ahead of McKenna as a striker either. Then you have Pesch, who is about the same age and plays at a higher level. So at best, and this is nothing for sure (again, I haven't seen him play so I can't really judge)... at best he MIGHT be fifth on the depth chart. So we might have called him for the Germany game... but is he really any better than JJ or Budalic? I hope this is not a case of CSA cronyism, where they are trying to do a special favour for someone who married into the family, as it were. Asking for something like this from FIFA may have repercussions later on, regarding more significant players, so I wonder if it is a good idea. I'd welcome any opinions from those who have seen this guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted June 7, 2003 Share Posted June 7, 2003 My first thought was that as well. How good is he? I would agree. Even if he would qualify for Canada, where would he stand on the depth chart? Sensing this is just an academic debate. It would be a different story if he was a leading scorer in one of the Big five European leagues. quote:Originally posted by Dave I've never seen Sebrango play, so let me ask this: How good is he, really? In other words, why even bother trying to get him for the nats? Obviously he isn't moving ahead of Rad or DD on the depth chart. In my opinion, I can't see him being chosen ahead of McKenna as a striker either. Then you have Pesch, who is about the same age and plays at a higher level. So at best, and this is nothing for sure (again, I haven't seen him play so I can't really judge)... at best he MIGHT be fifth on the depth chart. So we might have called him for the Germany game... but is he really any better than JJ or Budalic? I hope this is not a case of CSA cronyism, where they are trying to do a special favour for someone who married into the family, as it were. Asking for something like this from FIFA may have repercussions later on, regarding more significant players, so I wonder if it is a good idea. I'd welcome any opinions from those who have seen this guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeta Posted June 7, 2003 Share Posted June 7, 2003 I could care less who you've played for in the past (if you have). If you can get citizenship you should be allowed to play for your Nation. It may sound a bit mercenary but every day there are regular immegrants who end up on the factory floor, or driving cabs, or in resteraunts who are all looking to make a buck and provide a better life. So that's suppose to be okay so long as you're not playing football. Can't agree with that. Too close to classist to my way of thinking and we've enough of that. Economic reason or political reasons dosen't seem to make any difference to me. If you're going to do something so dramatic as to strike your colours and start a-new abroad there has to be some credit to that individual and he must have something to offer his new home (ambition at least). P.S. If work ever took me and my family abroad for extended periods stand assured that the Cheeta cubs would be brought up as Canadians even if they'd only see the Great White every decade or so. Minority of one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Georgio Posted June 7, 2003 Share Posted June 7, 2003 quote: My first thought was that as well. How good is he? I would agree. Even if he would qualify for Canada, where would he stand on the depth chart? Sensing this is just an academic debate. It would be a different story if he was a leading scorer in one of the Big five European leagues. I was thinking the exact same thing and then I thought of Aguiar. Not that the two situations are related at all. It just doesn't make sense how the CSA as a whole are making such an effort to include Sebrango in the player pool but we never hear CSA comments about Aguiar. A-League is second tier U.S. and Aguiar is playing in a top ten/top flight European League. I was also unaware of the defecting situation and if that is the case then Sebrango has adopted Canada and rejected his old country. He doesn't have a choice for allegience. I am sure when listening to the Canadian anthem he can sing along with pride (if he knows the words)knowing full well what our gov't and people stand for and the difference in values. Georgio P.S. I'd be curious to know what you guys think are the top 5 leagues in Europe. Italy has proven they are number one for 2003 but I prefer to watch other leagues myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoyleG Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack There is precedence for this sort of thing in the Olympics. Wasn't there an African (I think Nigeria) wrestler whow became a Canadian refugee, and was allowed to represent his new homeland. I can't think of any examples of this in soccer though. "It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees." Emiliano Zapata That would be Daniel Igali The problem with the IOC is that the athletes former country can block him/her from competing for a new one. A Cuban diver who competes for Canada was blocked from Sydney 2000 because of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 The rules for the Olympics I think are different. I think there are more cases where that may have happened with regard to olympic athletes. quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack There is precedence for this sort of thing in the Olympics. Wasn't there an African (I think Nigeria) wrestler whow became a Canadian refugee, and was allowed to represent his new homeland. I can't think of any examples of this in soccer though. "It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees." Emiliano Zapata Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 Did Igali even compete internationally for Nigeria? quote:Originally posted by DoyleG That would be Daniel Igali The problem with the IOC is that the athletes former country can block him/her from competing for a new one. A Cuban diver who competes for Canada was blocked from Sydney 2000 because of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted June 8, 2003 Author Share Posted June 8, 2003 Just to answer the "how good is he" question: He was joint top-scorer in the A-League in 2002 with 18 goals in like 26 games. He's a very efficient target man, and I think he's better at it than McKenna who, for example in the Germany game, scores a goal and then jogs around the pitch for 89 minutes or whatever. Sebrango actually puts pressure on the defense and such. Allez l'Impact! Allez les Rouges! Allons Ultras! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoyleG Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Canuck Oranje Did Igali even compete internationally for Nigeria? In the 1994 Commonwealth Games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dave Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 Daniel said: "He's a very efficient target man, and I think he's better at it than McKenna who, for example in the Germany game, scores a goal and then jogs around the pitch for 89 minutes or whatever. Sebrango actually puts pressure on the defense and such." Daniel, why the gratuitous criticism of Kevin McKenna? I must strongly diagree with you there. Perhaps Kevin does not fit your notion of how a striker should play, but in my book the guy has had nothing but success. Remember that he hasn't played up front for Canada very often (more often than not he has been a defender.) When he does play as a target man for the nats, his strike rate is phenomenal, better than anyone in Canadian history. Would you rather play a pretty game, or an effective game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 I guess I stand where I was in my first post on this subject, if a case is made that fits the rules and FIFA accepts, it's fine with me. Rules are rules. There will always be controversy. But while I understand there may be extenuating circumstances, the big clubs in Europe tend not to miss obvious talents. I don't trust my own abilities to identify talent; but, I think the network of professional clubs in Europe can be relied upon to identify most of the best talent. My reasons for thinking that de Guzman may be the most underrated Canadian talent by Canadians because he has been playing in the German Bundesliga but still many on this board wouldn't have put him in our ideal starting eleven. I hope the optimism about Sebrango is real and not simply flashy play in a lower division. quote:Originally posted by Dave Daniel said: "He's a very efficient target man, and I think he's better at it than McKenna who, for example in the Germany game, scores a goal and then jogs around the pitch for 89 minutes or whatever. Sebrango actually puts pressure on the defense and such." Daniel, why the gratuitous criticism of Kevin McKenna? I must strongly diagree with you there. Perhaps Kevin does not fit your notion of how a striker should play, but in my book the guy has had nothing but success. Remember that he hasn't played up front for Canada very often (more often than not he has been a defender.) When he does play as a target man for the nats, his strike rate is phenomenal, better than anyone in Canadian history. Would you rather play a pretty game, or an effective game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 Re: De Guzman, I think most of us would put him in the starting 11, if not before the Germany match, than certainly you will see more people do that after the Germany match. I think there is a case that De Guzman is probably the most underrated player in all of Concacaf, mind you. I don't think our Concacaf rivals (& their fans) have ever heard of him. Outside of 15 minutes against Martinique, he has never played against a Concacaf team at the senior level. There is also a case for Canada to be considered the most under-rated team in Concacaf, but that's probably a discussion for another thread. Well a lot of things can happen, when you're walking down the street, and it never fails to amaze me, the people that I meet. They all say "See you later" and I just answer "How? How will you see me later, when you can't see me now?" - Kevin Ayers, The Confessions of Dr. Dream & Other Stories (1974) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 I was thinking prior to the Germany match... quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca Re: De Guzman, I think most of us would put him in the starting 11, if not before the Germany match, than certainly you will see more people do that after the Germany match. I think there is a case that De Guzman is probably the most underrated player in all of Concacaf, mind you. I don't think our Concacaf rivals (& their fans) have ever heard of him. Outside of 15 minutes against Martinique, he has never played against a Concacaf team at the senior level. There is also a case for Canada to be considered the most under-rated team in Concacaf, but that's probably a discussion for another thread. Well a lot of things can happen, when you're walking down the street, and it never fails to amaze me, the people that I meet. They all say "See you later" and I just answer "How? How will you see me later, when you can't see me now?" - Kevin Ayers, The Confessions of Dr. Dream & Other Stories (1974) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 I was thinking prior to the Germany match... quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca Re: De Guzman, I think most of us would put him in the starting 11, if not before the Germany match, than certainly you will see more people do that after the Germany match. I think there is a case that De Guzman is probably the most underrated player in all of Concacaf, mind you. I don't think our Concacaf rivals (& their fans) have ever heard of him. Outside of 15 minutes against Martinique, he has never played against a Concacaf team at the senior level. There is also a case for Canada to be considered the most under-rated team in Concacaf, but that's probably a discussion for another thread. Well a lot of things can happen, when you're walking down the street, and it never fails to amaze me, the people that I meet. They all say "See you later" and I just answer "How? How will you see me later, when you can't see me now?" - Kevin Ayers, The Confessions of Dr. Dream & Other Stories (1974) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted June 8, 2003 Author Share Posted June 8, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Dave Daniel, why the gratuitous criticism of Kevin McKenna? I must strongly diagree with you there. Perhaps Kevin does not fit your notion of how a striker should play, but in my book the guy has had nothing but success. Remember that he hasn't played up front for Canada very often (more often than not he has been a defender.) When he does play as a target man for the nats, his strike rate is phenomenal, better than anyone in Canadian history. Would you rather play a pretty game, or an effective game? It's not gratuitous at all, because Sebrango's style is that of a target man, a role currently assumed by McKenna on the Nats. McKenna has a great strike rate, but it seems to me that he's scored mainly on headers from crosses or set plays, which he could do from midfield or defense (see DeVos). His tenure during the run of play has hardly impressed and I think that Sebrango would do a better job playing a two-way game. And he could be a good complement to Radz. All in all, however, I don't rate him all that high in the grand scheme of things and I think he'd be more of a temp fix than a solution to our strike problems. Allez l'Impact! Allez les Rouges! Allons Ultras! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack There is precedence for this sort of thing in the Olympics. Wasn't there an African (I think Nigeria) wrestler whow became a Canadian refugee, and was allowed to represent his new homeland. I can't think of any examples of this in soccer though. FIFA rules are different from most other world sports. I think the rule for most Olympic sports is that you can represent another country if a) the originating country gives you official written permission to represent another land b)or after a certain minimum period as a resident or citizen you are released from the previous nation's obligations. Mark McKoy the Canadian hurdler went on to represent Austria, I think as he got permission from Canada, we did not object. Cubans are entirely different. Quite a few compete for Spain (Montalvo, the female longjumper, some waterpolo players), and have had to wait a long period before winning medals for Spain, though often they can compete in championships as independents. This is because Cuba will never give anyone permission if they have left the country, you always have to wait out the minimum period. Then the IOC or the relevant international sport federation will allow you to represent a new nation. I think trying to get Sebrango onto our national team is a bit silly, in the end it just pisses off a rival in CONCACAF. Now if he had only competed a few times for them, or only very young, or if he was a great player, a sure starter, I might consider it worthwhile. Otherwise, let him enjoy his new nation and don't rock the boat, since it is FIFA's boat and it will always take a different tack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 I'm coming into this a little late, but I wanted to add my voice in favour of calling up Sebrango for a look. The poor guy can't play for Cuba any more because he defected, so I'm glad FIFA makes an exception to the cap tie rules for political refugees. I have no idea if he's good enough but, if the Germany match showed us anything, we need more depth. (Perhaps his Montreal Impact team mates Martin Nash and/or Nevio Pizzolitto but in a good word for him with Holger.) Sebrango may be older than Budalic and Jordan, meaning his long-term usefulness to the national team may be limited, but he's got international experience so he could be an asset in upcoming World Cup qualifying. As for his citizenship, if you marry a Canadian then you're Canadian. Kudos to the CSA for intervening to help him get through the red tape. Mike D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ed Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 The people who think de Guzman shouldn't have started (prior to the Germany match, as you all insist) base the quality of players on the 'insight' of our soccer commentators. Sad really. Probably think Paul James was a good coach too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Oranje Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 I don't think FIFA has made a decision yet. From what I read, it is still far from a certainty. quote:Originally posted by MikeD I'm coming into this a little late, but I wanted to add my voice in favour of calling up Sebrango for a look. The poor guy can't play for Cuba any more because he defected, so I'm glad FIFA makes an exception to the cap tie rules for political refugees. I have no idea if he's good enough but, if the Germany match showed us anything, we need more depth. (Perhaps his Montreal Impact team mates Martin Nash and/or Nevio Pizzolitto but in a good word for him with Holger.) Sebrango may be older than Budalic and Jordan, meaning his long-term usefulness to the national team may be limited, but he's got international experience so he could be an asset in upcoming World Cup qualifying. As for his citizenship, if you marry a Canadian then you're Canadian. Kudos to the CSA for intervening to help him get through the red tape. Mike D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vicenç Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Just in case some one want to know, you can find a profile of Sebrango here http://www.canada.com/montreal/sports/teams/impact/story.html?id=D1237146-C129-48AE-BAF9-ED3AC6C04775 the name of this article is: "Call him citizen Sebrango". So you'll find some answers. A profile of Greg Sutton is also available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimglow Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Good article. Thank you. Mimglow, Ottawa _________________________ Where are the weapons of mass destruction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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