Canadians are domestic league wide in NASL

[matty]

2 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Even when we have been told that they want a domestic quota of 3 or 4 players? Think the reality is that the domestic player issue is now pretty much irrelevant as an argument for needing a domestic pro league, although it would be good from an optics standpoint to get MLS to go all the way like the NASL and USL have done.

My god you're dense. Beyond needing Canadians to play, the CPL is needed to prepare Canadian youngsters via proper pro team-linked academies in regions without access to one (which was mentioned on the TSN radio interview last night). Without this league, you have over a third of this country without access to a pro team/academy within a 2 and a half hour commute and the MLS is not expanding here and no one is interested in bringing more NASL clubs in. The CPL solves this problem if the rumours of Calgary, Regina, Winnipeg and Halifax are true.

The league would also provide a chance to train Canadian coaches and officials better.

And contrary to what you think, the GA deals will not be dealt out like candy (we'll see maybe 1 to 3 a year on average), the 3 MLS teams will not sign 5-10 young stars a year to the first team and offer them decent minutes and the NASL will still just offer a living wage (the USL will not). There is also still is no certainty that the NASL will survive long term as well. Canadians will still have very limited options about where they can play even under these new rules.

When it comes to the quota of how many players are there day 1: I posted said comment a goddamn hour before the TSN radio interview went up that reinforced the low quota (which still seems negotiable BTW) but also mentioned an interest in reaching a greater number of Canadians over time. We are not going to see every US MLS/NASL teams with 4 to 10 Canadian players, however we will likely see it on every CPL team.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

40 minutes ago, matty said:

My god you're dense... And contrary to what you think,...

Very mature and I seriously doubt you know what I really think.

40 minutes ago, matty said:

Without this league, you have over a third of this country without access to a pro team/academy within a 2 and a half hour commute...

Really? I don't follow your logic on that. It's not all or nothing on this, if the CSA simply lifts the moratorium on further expansion by USSF D2 level leagues into Canada. What happens if the interested parties in the new domestic league joined the USL and/or the NASL instead? Probably pretty much the same outcome as there would be with "CPL" where academies are concerned and both leagues classify Canadians as domestics, so even as things stand at the moment are providing almost 40 clubs that Canadians can sign for without being part of an import quota. It's not at all clear why the future of Canadian soccer automatically needs to be handed over to the Hamilton Ticats lock, stock and barrel at this point, if they are struggling to find suitable investors for their vision of the way ahead.

[matty]

42 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Very mature and I seriously doubt you know what I really think.

You have this very limited view of why people are interested in the CPL. So I stand by dense on this topic.

42 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Really? I don't think you have fully thought that through. It's not all or nothing on this, if the CSA simply lifts the moratorium on further expansion by USSF D2 level leagues into Canada. What happens if the interested parties in the new domestic league joined the USL and/or the NASL instead? Probably pretty much the same outcome as there would be with "CPL" where academies are concerned and both leagues classify Canadians as domestics, so even as things stand at the moment are providing almost 40 clubs that Canadians can sign for without being part of an import quota.

Prior to the CSA making it more difficult for D2 to expand in Canada, there was zero interest in doing so. The money isn't there and the odds seem to favour a Canadian league rather than jumping into an American one. Stop acting like they'd be smarter to switch.

While a CPL academy might not be this amazing thing, it's still a thing that will be graduating players to the pro level and if they sign deals with the smaller boutique academies, they will arguably be giving the best trained players in Canada a chance that they might not have.

You mention 40 clubs but there are things that make signing with a NASL club risky. The wages are generally too low to live alone and can make having a family more difficult. Most guys need to get second jobs come the off-season. The USL wages are even lower. CPL will still have issues here but if pay is closer to the CFL level players will be ok financially. Not to mention the low level of play could harm national team careers.

42 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

It's not at all clear why the future of Canadian soccer automatically needs to be handed over to the Hamilton Ticats lock, stock and barrel at this point, if they are struggling to find suitable investors for their vision of the way ahead.

No one is saying hand it over to the TiCats, they're saying hand it over to the CPL and MLS together. People want the MLS clubs to keep doing what they're doing but also want a Canadian league to aid the process of player and coach development and help this sport go mainstream at a local level in beyond 3 cities (that last one is something the USL and NASL don't seem to be able to do).

Also there is no real indication they are struggling to find willing investors that fit the leagues needs. It seems that there are 6 that are on board and have the money to go at this and a 7th that's halfway on the money side of things. The only places we've heard struggles for ownership are in Halifax (where the push for a team seems to have blindsided everyone) and Quebec (which is a market everyone seems sketchy about when going outside of Montreal).

Anyways if you wanna debate this tag me in the CPL thread so we don't turn this joyful one into a pile of junk.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

33 minutes ago, matty said:

Prior to the CSA making it more difficult for D2 to expand in Canada, there was zero interest in doing so

Not true. The moratorium was imposed precisely because there was interest in moving into USL Pro in London (FC London), Victoria (Victoria Highlanders) and Hamilton (from the investors that started Hamilton FC Rage in PDL by taking over a W League franchise) and Tony Waiters had been hired as a consultant to push for Canadian expansion in that context.

[smeghead]

I thought i read somewhere that the ussf limits the number of canadian teams in there leagues . why wouldnt we want a domestic pro league? Total control instead of accepting bread crumbs from a foreign federation

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Wanting something isn't enough. Somebody needs to pay for it. The CSA doesn't have the money to make the league happen, so they need to find people who actually want to invest in it. The reason the big announcement never materializes is because that has been a major problem. Investors usually make rational business investment decisions rather than being driven by an altruistic sense of patriotism.

[matty]

29 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Not true. The moratorium was imposed precisely because there was interest in moving into USL Pro in London (FC London), Victoria (Victoria Highlanders) and Hamilton (from the investors that started Hamilton FC Rage in PDL by taking over a W League franchise) and Tony Waiters had been hired as a consultant to push for Canadian expansion in that context.

The ban was put in place on independent D3 teams (the USL at the time) in 2015 (if my memory is correct) and the USL was already facing issues of cities not wanting D3. Also Bill Peterson said in late 2015 there was no interest from Canadians in bringing more NASL clubs to Canada. Prior to that yes there had been interest in Hamilton, Regina and Victoria to bring the NASL in but that interest was gone by 2015.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

The moratorium was put in place in November 2010.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_soccer_league_system

In order to limit the Americanization of all of Canada's professional soccer clubs, the CSA issued a moratorium on the sanctioning of any new Division 2, 3, or 4 teams on November 15, 2010,...

[Bison44]

Something that always bugs me is that front office people have always been "domestic".  We need more coaches, gm etc, and I dont think we are going to get them from MLS/NASL etc.  CPL with (I hope!) 50% CDN Managers/coaches and 100% GM should be a fertile breeding ground for CDN talent.  More and more I am thinking this is what we really are lacking.  Look at Dos Santos in SKC.  He was able to bring along a bunch of CDN boys and help them develop in the USL/MLS system.  And he was successful doing it.  It seems like he going to continue that and is stockpiling CDN at SAN FRAN.  We have players with talent, but no front office types willing to give them a chance in MLS, NASL USL etc.  Hopefully CPL can change that.  

[matty]

1 hour ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

The moratorium was put in place in November 2010.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_soccer_league_system

In order to limit the Americanization of all of Canada's professional soccer clubs, the CSA issued a moratorium on the sanctioning of any new Division 2, 3, or 4 teams on November 15, 2010,...

...with the ban set to last until September 30, 2011. Despite the moratorium, the NASL announced that Ottawa had been awarded a franchise on June 20, 2011.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Exactly how long have you been a soccer fan? Ottawa were grandfathered in as they had already started the move to landing an NASL expansion franchise and the moratorium has been in place ever since where USL and NASL are concerned with the only exceptions being PDL teams in provinces with no D3 level league and MLS teams being allowed to have reserve sides in USL. It's still not entirely clear why Ottawa were allowed to get into USL, so it may be directly linked to being Montreal's affiliate and they may well have purchased Montreal's franchise.

[matty]

11 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Exactly how long have you been a soccer fan? Ottawa were grandfathered in as they had already started the move to landing an NASL expansion franchise and the moratorium has been in place ever since where USL and NASL are concerned with the only exceptions being PDL teams in provinces with no D3 level league and MLS teams being allowed to have reserve sides in USL. It's still not entirely clear why Ottawa were allowed to get into USL, so it may be directly linked to being Montreal's affiliate and they may well have purchased Montreal's franchise.

All i literally did was finish your paragraph.

[Complete Homer]

29 minutes ago, matty said:

...with the ban set to last until September 30, 2011. Despite the moratorium, the NASL announced that Ottawa had been awarded a franchise on June 20, 2011.

You're ignoring the #alternativefacts that the moratorium ended  2011

But hey, this is about NASL making a good move for us. Any Unnattached FC stick out as good candidates to move to NASL?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

...because it appears you have no clue what happened in Canadian soccer as recently as six years ago and probably thought it contradicted what I chose to highlight. As someone who has had more than a passing interest and involvement in London, Ont soccer over the years, it sticks in the craw that London now doesn't even have a PDL team after winning a continent wide D4 level championship because of this never ending domestic pro league saga when maybe FC London could have moved on to be Canada's version of the Charleston Battery. Not allowed into USL and no doubt too small to be a desirable fit for what the Ticats want.

[matty]

No i finished it because the ban was soft on the nasl which was the d2.

[Complete Homer]

8 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

...because it appears you have no clue what happened in Canadian soccer as recently as six years ago and probably thought it contradicted what I chose to highlight. As someone who has had more than a passing interest and involvement in London, Ont soccer over the years, it sticks in the craw that London now doesn't even have a PDL team after winning a continent wide D4 level championship because of this never ending domestic pro league saga when maybe FC London could have moved on to be Canada's version of the Charleston Battery. Not allowed into USL and no doubt too small to be a desirable fit for what the Ticats want.

Blizzard, you cut off the end of the quotation, presumably because it did not fit your narrative. Matty was just finishing the quote, and now you are now using the same old "I've been around longer than you" logical fallacy that you fall into whenever someone disagrees with you. 

The full quote, which is fully backed up by published CSA documents, states

In order to limit the Americanization of all of Canada's professional soccer clubs, the CSA issued a moratorium on the sanctioning of any new Division 2, 3, or 4 teams on November 15, 2010, with the ban set to last until September 30, 2011.[14] 

 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Joined in September 2015 and March 2016 and probably not even paying any attention to this stuff back in 2010 when the moratorium was put in place.

[Complete Homer]

16 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Joined in September 2015 and March 2016 and probably not even paying any attention to this stuff back in 2010 when the moratorium was put in place.

Please. You got caught lying by omission and are grasping 

If you have some secret knowledge of the moratorium, go ahead, enlighten us. 

[Alex D]

Realistically the moratorium has cost us zero pro teams. Ottawa still got into NASL, and the big three got their USL reserve teams. 

Victoria mused about going pro then went broke because they couldn't support a W-League team. Winnipeg has lots of aspiration but no cash. FC London would have also needed a sudden influx of cash to make the jump. It's possible that they are happy in L1O. They get more games (revenue) and less travel.

The only PDL club with deep pockets is KW and they are alligned with the CPL.  

[shermanator]

13 hours ago, Olympique_de_Marseille said:

1) Don Garbage is full of shit - well you already knew that.

2) The day that Canadians count as domestics in MLS, NASL & USL I see no need for the CPL. (Others will disagree)

I would definitely disagree on point 2. Having Canadians as domestics would definitely be a step in the right direction, but I think more would have to be done to widen and deepen the talent pool of players produced by this country. Remember that there are only 4 professional clubs with pro academies in the entire country, and none of them have produced talent that have helped the national team yet (yet being the key word here; there are some good young players who's impact are to be determined). A CPL with even 8 teams, all with academies, triples this number and gets more eyes on more places.

What point 2 would do, however, is make the immediate need for a domestic league lower, meaning that a CPL can find the right committed ownership groups who will be willing to put real money into the league. As opposed to ownership groups like OSEG, who put big money into NASL, then panic when they lose money, and begin to hack away at the talent on the pitch and get rid of the academy.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Ridiculous stuff given I was the one who provided the link and clearly expected people to follow it. None of this stuff is some kind of secret if you have been following the sport for more than two or three years. The CSA's moratorium on expansion into USSF leagues and the whole renewed push for a domestic pro league started in November 2010 rather than 2015 as Matty claimed. Ottawa were grandfathered in, because they were already working on their application with the CSA by that point. The moves to have pro teams in London, Victoria and Hamilton that were not so far along and were at the stage of mentions in local newspaper articles were actively blocked. Over six years on and still no league and give it a few months and it will probably still be two years away with the launch moving back yet again to 2018. Over and out for this thread as I have better things to do with my time.

[Complete Homer]

12 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Ridiculous stuff given I was the one who provided the link and clearly expected people to follow it. None of this stuff is some kind of secret if you have been following the sport for more than two or three years. The CSA's moratorium on expansion into USSF leagues and the whole renewed push for a domestic pro league started in November 2010 rather than 2015 as Matty claimed. Ottawa were grandfathered in, because they were already working on their application with the CSA by that point. The moves to have pro teams in London, Victoria and Hamilton that were not so far along and were at the stage of mentions in local newspaper articles were actively blocked. Over six years on and still no league and give it a few months and it will probably still be two years away with the launch moving back yet again to 2018. Over and out for this thread as I have better things to do with my time.

Except that you've repeatedly used the moratorium as a talking on how the CSA has blocked expansion the entire time it has pursued CPL, while in reality they pumped the brakes for a year to give the association time to work on a coherent plan for what soccer in Canada will look like going forward. 

MLS took approximately 8 years to get off the ground, so that too is not much of a criticism

[Alex D]

I don't recall there ever being any actual plans for FC London to move up to USL pro. Just a lot of "oh wouldn't that be nice" and "maybe someday" talk. 

If I'm wrong then prove me wrong but I remember it being a bit more pie in the sky than you do. 

[Rheo]

Guess we can all take a time out now until the next sh*t storm lol

14 hours ago, Olympique_de_Marseille said:

2) The day that Canadians count as domestics in MLS, NASL & USL I see no need for the CPL. (Others will disagree)

Totally missed that when catching up this morning.  Yeah I have to disagree.  I don't see what one has to do with the other.  We need as many oppourtunites for Canadians to play as we can get and the NASL and USL counting them as domestics is part of this.  Even if MLS one day follows suit it wouldn't diminish the need for the CPL.  It would just allow more players the chance to continue on.  It's like Lawrence and Buchanon going to Europe opens spots in the NWSL that wouldn't be there.  We need as many paths, at every level possible.

[Levi Oakey]

31 minutes ago, Rheo said:

Guess we can all take a time out now until the next sh*t storm lol

Totally missed that when catching up this morning.  Yeah I have to disagree.  I don't see what one has to do with the other.  We need as many oppourtunites for Canadians to play as we can get and the NASL and USL counting them as domestics is part of this.  Even if MLS one day follows suit it wouldn't diminish the need for the CPL.  It would just allow more players the chance to continue on.  It's like Lawrence and Buchanon going to Europe opens spots in the NWSL that wouldn't be there.  We need as many paths, at every level possible.

Yeah, this isn't just about players too. Which is critical. This is about GM's, coaches, scouts. The whole thing. Right now most former Canadian players become technical directors at best for smaller clubs. Think Carlo Corrazin, Mark Rogers, Chris Pozniak. Chris Pozniak is a great example, he was coaching York University when KW United stepped in and asked him to join up. Led the team to a PDL championship and then won the CIS championship and thanks to those experiences, TFC asked him to join. We need way more opportunities for these kinds of people to remain in the game.