Gound Share... Ottawa, Hamilton... on Artificial Turf.... doomed to fail

[Trillium]

A simple prediction at the second division level any ground share deal with a CFL franchise playing on artificial turf in stadia over 12,000 in size will fail within three years.

I just do not get how smart business men can think they can run a second division club as a money maker in a facility that will not give the clients a full experience of soccer in a intimate setting, and what is worse the stadia will be done for CFL football and will not..have appropriate KOP standing areas or the type of concessions etc. needed to really make the game a entertainment value for casual fans who are in the target age of 18 to 30.

Any owner who trots out the number of registered youth players as his market and thinks he can sell tickets to them at full face value is ... dead wrong.

I hope the folks here reading this as fans of the game will take blinkers off when discussing new teams in Edmonton, Ottawa and Hamilton.

If you dont control your stadia and its not an SSS. It just will not fly.

[PJSweet]

I totally agree with you 100%... I've been saying this time after time.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Seattle shows that in some circumstances it can be made to work but I share some of Trillium's fears on this. The other angle that needs to be remembered here is that the soccer team in both Ottawa and Hamilton looks like something that was tacked on to increase political support for getting the stadium money in a similar sort of way to the winter bubble public access stuff at BMO Field. Three seasons then well we tried but we are losing lots of money and the soccer community haven't really responded in the numbers we anticipated so we are folding the team is definitely one way things could go. The best bet for a fourth stable fully pro team emerging at D2 level is definitely FC Edmonton if they actually do build the SSS in the three to five year timescale.

I think D2 teams will probably need to push the MLS expansion as the long term goal angle to make things work and I'm not sure that's credible in a Hamilton context given the proximity of Toronto and I question whether it is something that CFL owners and even the local media are ever likely to want to push too hard for elsewhere given their core focus is elsewhere and it is debatable whether a relatively small media market in major league sports terms like Ottawa could sustain both MLS and the CFL at the same time.

[Alex D]

-So long as there are no grid-iron lines nobody cares about turf except us soccer nerds

-The teams will control the stadiums

-The key for these teams to work is doing well in the Voyageurs Cup and getting the visibility from the TV time.

[dmont]

The Whitecaps MLS team will be sharing both the temporary and permanent stadiums currently occupied by the BC Lions, playing on artificial turf. Furthermore, BC Place is enormous, no matter what kind of creative things are done with screens.

The stadiums being built in Ottawa and Hamilton will be only a little bigger than BMO field. No, not quite as intimate, but if soccer fans aren't coming out because they need to sit a couple metres back from the field, they're not worth the effort.

Partnering with CFL teams is the best thing second division soccer can do in this country. 1) Economies of scale. The football teams already have a dedicated sales department, established lists of season ticket holders and opportunities to get creative with ticket packages. 2) Experience. These are organisations who are experts at selling a second-division sport. 3) Football is probably the worst kind of sports team to run, in terms of cost. Teams and coaching staffs are huge, equipment is expensive, and they play less than ten times. If CFL teams have figured out how to at least break even with football, they are going to be able to run a soccer franchise efficiently. 4) Advertising. CFL teams have existing relationships with advertisers. Also, during football games, the team can advertise their soccer team to a captive audience. 5) Broadcasting. TSN is the CFL's exclusive broadcaster, and has been looking to get into the soccer game recently. The relationship exists.

I admit, the offer of soccer could be used as a way to get stadium funding. But don't forget, 2/5 of the Ottawa ownership group currently already own soccer franchises, and I suspect the reason Bob Young got rid of his ownership share in Carolina was to pursue a Hamilton one. So yes, view these offers with some sketicism, but at least the Ottawa and Hamilton cases can back up their relationships with pro soccer.

[paul-collins]

Partnering with CFL teams is the best thing second division soccer can do in this country. 1) Economies of scale. The football teams already have a dedicated sales department, established lists of season ticket holders and opportunities to get creative with ticket packages. 2) Experience. These are organisations who are experts at selling a second-division sport.

I was living in Ottawa when CFL failed the last time. There is no CFL organization in that town that is expert at selling second-division sport.

Now, if you were talking junior hockey, yes, Jeff Hunt has a clue.

[brettinhalifax]

The stadiums being built in Ottawa and Hamilton will be only a little bigger than BMO field. No, not quite as intimate, but if soccer fans aren't coming out because they need to sit a couple metres back from the field, they're not worth the effort.

Excellent point. And further to what dmont said, the NBA came about because NHL owners wanted something to fill empty dates in their arenas.

[brettinhalifax]

I was living in Ottawa when CFL failed the last time. There is no CFL organization in that town that is expert at selling second-division sport.

Now, if you were talking junior hockey, yes, Jeff Hunt has a clue.

Are you aware that Jeff Hunt is part of the ownership group for the new Ottawa CFL team?

Regardless, IMO the quality of CFL ownership and management has risen in the last 5-10 years.

[paul-collins]

Are you aware that Jeff Hunt is part of the ownership group for the new Ottawa CFL team?

Yes. However, I consider him to be part of an OHL organization, not a CFL organization. I'm not convinced that hockey is as tough a sell even as a tier two sport as soccer is for a tier one sport.

I remember the last games in the Darwin days and the first games that Jeff Hunt sold (sold out) and it was night and day, which is why I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

[tovan1]

It looks like the ownership group in Ottawa is willing to learn.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/story_print.html?id=4160609&sponsor=

'Football' field trip for Dream Team

BY RICHARD STARNES, OTTAWA CITIZENJANUARY 25, 2011

Almost 36,000 fans squeezed into White Hart Lane stadium recently to watch Tottenham play Manchester United in one of the biggest Premier League matches of the English soccer season. Among them was a small band of wide-eyed Ottawans who confess to being serious football fans -- football with an oblong ball, not a round one.

I am unsure whether John Ruddy has ever attended a soccer game. Roger Greenberg confesses he hasn't seen one since the Montreal Olympics and Jeff Hunt has only recently been blooded in the game.

The same cannot be said of Bill Shenkman, a major shareholder in Millwall, a South London championship team (that's one division down from the Premier League). And it most certainly cannot be said of John Pugh, the Ottawa Fury owner, who played the game at a serious level and, at various stages, got paid for his passion. So what on earth were the men who make up what Shenkman likes to call the Dream Team doing spending two days soaking in the sporting culture that is English soccer?

I am guessing it started out as a due diligence trip for this Ottawa Sports and Entertainment Group that is hell bent on restoring decrepit Frank Clair Stadium, revitalizing Lansdowne Park and, among other things, establishing an entertainment centre that includes Hunt's junior hockey Ottawa 67's, the new version of the CFL Rough Riders and a professional North American soccer franchise.

I also have no reason to doubt it turned into much more than that.

"People have been calling it a soccer fan's dream," Hunt said of a visit that included watching Shenkman's Millwall defeat Ipswich Town on Saturday and Tottenham and Man U playing to a 0-0 draw (they, of course, might call that a tie).

"But I have to broaden that into it being any sports fan's dream trip," Hunt said. "Even if you had a very modest interest in the game, you couldn't help but enjoy it."

For me, the most pleasing aspect of this weekend was that these men were eager to know exactly why soccer is the world's game, to know what they might expect when pro soccer hits Bank Street, to realize it is far more than makeweight for a CFL revival.

It may sound banal to suggest these wealthy men, three of whom are arguably the most successful developers in our city, are self-confessed sports jocks. But it is clear they are and it is also clear they mean business when it comes to successful franchises in the stadium they are helping to revitalize.

So what memories did Greenberg come away with?

On Saturday, impeccable host Shenkman had arranged for the group to be part of the centre-field ceremonies before the Millwall game. They were treated to lunch, soaked up the atmosphere and watched as even a club that attracts maybe 7,000 for a game took great pains to treat its fans well.

On Sunday, at Spurs, it was even more evident. They got a tour of the dressing rooms, they were given a tremendous lunch and then they made their way into the crowd at one end of the stadium for the real experience. All the while, they were being escorted around by "a nice, older gentleman" who answered all of their questions.

To Greenberg's horror, he later learned -- probably because Pugh had whispered in his ear -- that his escort was Alan Mullery, a tough midfielder who played 312 times for Spurs and 35 times for England.

"I felt badly," Greenberg said. "I was being introduced to a Wayne Gretzky or a Punch Imlach and all I thought was this was a nice older gentleman. I had no idea of his significance. The fact is, 99 per cent of those there would have been blown away to have him as an escort."

Also mingling was Ossie Ardiles, another former Spurs great who won a World Cup with Argentina. "I was so impressed seeing the respect and homage paid to returning players," Greenberg said.

It was Pugh who had made the Spurs arrangements and he deliberately wanted the "new" boys to sit in the crowd and soak in the atmosphere instead of being isolated in a box somewhere. For Greenberg, it was a beautiful experience.

Understandably, he was amazed at the way in which the fans are part of the entertainment with their singing -- much of which he didn't understand -- and the "colourful" language littered within. He was also surprised by the physicality, the toughness of the game that does not come over so much on television. "This isn't rugby, he said, "but it certainly is a game of physical contact."

Hunt was also full of tangible memories. He talked to Mullery about why soccer fans are perfectly content with a drawn game. He pointed out that there isn't a sport in North America in which a game finishes in a tie.

"Many fans in North America say they would be fine with a tied hockey game," he said. "Others would want to know how you could play a sport that ends with no winner."

Hunt wanted to know whether there had been talk of changing that in soccer. The answer here lies in the deep traditions of a game that goes back to the 1800s. They are fundamental to the game and excess tinkering would not be tolerated.

I suspect Pugh and Shenkman were often called upon to explain the intricacies of the game to their Dream Team buddies.

Pugh even confessed there was one question he could not answer. Why was Tottenham called Tottenham Hotspur and what was a cockerel doing as the club crest?

The answer speaks to those traditions. The club was named after Sir Harry Percy, known by the people of England as Harry Hotspur. He was a tough soldier who fought in the 1403 rebellion against Henry IV. The man wore spurs and put spurs on his gamecocks in cockfighting contests of the day. He died at the Battle of Shrewsbury when he lifted his visor to get some air and was hit between the eyes by an arrow. I still haven't discovered why he was picked as the symbol of the club, especially since his family came from the north of England.

On the trip home, I am told, Dream Team members could be spotted reading soccer on the sports pages and marvelling at why English newspapers carried 10 pages of soccer news.

I like to consider this a true indication that these men are now hooked on another game as well as hockey and football. Thanks for going gentlemen and welcome to the world's game!

[foreverthursday]

Awesome, awesome, awesome article! Thank you for posting it.

[Trillium]

-So long as there are no grid-iron lines nobody cares about turf except us soccer nerds

I think a lot of people ... casual fans newly created fans for a D2 franchise will see it as a symbolic thing.... and I think it will affect attendance, grass will draw more fans in the long term.... even if you lose 10% of potential fans on a average of 5000 attendance base.. that 500 tickets a game over 20 home games is 10,000 sales at 15.00 plus an easy $20.00 per from concessions... it become serious money in this case $350,000 in lost revenue.

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-The teams will control the stadiums

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Not a given in Hamilton the stadia will be owned by the city... and rented to the Tiger Cat ownership group... you can bet the city will want to control concessions etc. Its not clear in Ottawa just what kind of concession contract will be developed and what the restrictions are going to be.... remember the Ownership group is essentially taking on management of the stadia but it will owned by the city and subject to oversite... not a clean situation like Saputo has.

.

-The key for these teams to work is doing well in the Voyageurs Cup

Agreed... and importantly developing players who get bought by the MLS franchises then come back to play ... even better if the div2 teams get to Concacaf every three our four times .... and do well.

[Alex D]

I think a lot of people ... casual fans newly created fans for a D2 franchise will see it as a symbolic thing.... and I think it will affect attendance, grass will draw more fans in the long term.... even if you lose 10% of potential fans on a average of 5000 attendance base.. that 500 tickets a game over 20 home games is 10,000 sales at 15.00 plus an easy $20.00 per from concessions... it become serious money in this case $350,000 in lost revenue.

Ya, we all saw how Toronto's turf drove fans away.

Sure a lot of soccer fans *****ed on message boards about it but that's what us soccer fans do. Nobody was boycotting games because of Field Turf.

[Cyrus]

You know, I never really understood the visceral anger against Fieldturf. I've been to Leyton Orient, in an English spring, with the grass being a particularly nasty shade of brown, and remember thinking that artificial turf would make sense. Same thing with what they used to call grass at Commonwealth in Edmonton. Some climates, some stadiums, artificial turf makes sense. The Whitecaps are going to play on it, and I don't think that turf is going to be what makes or breaks the franchise.

On the other hand, gridiron lines on the pitch? That's an issue. A bigger issue, in my opinion, than what the pitch is made of.

[dbailey62]

You know, I never really understood the visceral anger against Fieldturf. I've been to Leyton Orient, in an English spring, with the grass being a particularly nasty shade of brown, and remember thinking that artificial turf would make sense. Same thing with what they used to call grass at Commonwealth in Edmonton. Some climates, some stadiums, artificial turf makes sense. The Whitecaps are going to play on it, and I don't think that turf is going to be what makes or breaks the franchise.

On the other hand, gridiron lines on the pitch? That's an issue. A bigger issue, in my opinion, than what the pitch is made of.

CFL football lines are definitely a problem but FieldTurf can be even a bigger problem IF you wear it out as they did in Toronto with the community usage provision. Of course, Vancouver won't have that problem as such but Seattle fans have stated their concern that the constant scrubbing off of the NFL lines has taken a major toll on the quality of their field so the two issues do go hand in hand to some degree.

As for it breaking the franchise, no it won't but as for the occasional soft tissue/ligament/cartilage injury (not to mention the increased impact's toll on the back), don't totally discount those factors as having an impact on the health and fitness of your club.

[jloome]

but if soccer fans aren't coming out because they need to sit a couple metres back from the field, they're not worth the effort.

While perhaps theoretically true, telling the customer base they aren't worth it doesn't generally help sell tickets.

[Trillium]

City of Ottawa staff have released a recomendation to city council to shift use of the Lynx baseball stadia to a concert bowl and build condos around it in the parking space.

This is in line with the long term goal of city staff to have the stadia torn down, what they fail to mention to city council is a concert bowl can only be used four months a year and if you have condos around they sound will have to be turned off at ten ...or eleven at night.... not a good prospect for a promoter to have only a 80db sound level and shut down at ten at night.

City staff have not addressed using the stadia as a soccer stadium, just argued baseball is dead.

[tmcmurph]

One of the overlooked problems in sharing a stadium is the slope of the pitch. I don't know about other stadiums but here in Calgary when I was at ground level in McMahon stadium I was shocked at how much slope there is from the center to the sides. We are talking 6 inches at least. Now for a pointy ball game it might not matter but for soccer the slope will affect the roll of the ball. Hopefully they keep the field level.

I am hoping that by year 2 the Caps will have an agreement to finally build their own stadium. As MLS has determined through their experience there is no substitute for owning your own stadium. From a financial stability angle it just can't be beat.

[argh1]

One of the overlooked problems in sharing a stadium is the slope of the pitch. I don't know about other stadiums but here in Calgary when I was at ground level in McMahon stadium I was shocked at how much slope there is from the center to the sides. We are talking 6 inches at least. Now for a pointy ball game it might not matter but for soccer the slope will affect the roll of the ball. Hopefully they keep the field level.

I am hoping that by year 2 the Caps will have an agreement to finally build their own stadium. As MLS has determined through their experience there is no substitute for owning your own stadium. From a financial stability angle it just can't be beat.

It's a common practice in building sports fields.

It's called crowning the field for drainage after rain. The centre of the field is higher and slopes towards the sides. This way water does not sit on the field and doesn't require expensive underground drainage pipes since gravity will keep the water flowing to the side lines.

In some baseball fields if you sit behind home plate you can only see the out fielders from the knees up.

[Richard]

The Whitecaps are sharing Empire Field and BC Place with the BC Lions, both pitches are FieldTurf. The pitch at Empire is spectacular frankly and there is no sign whatsoever of the football gridiron markings on Whitecaps match days. The same will undoubtedly apply at BC Place later this year. Sharing the facility and FieldTurf sure doesn't seem to affect fan enthusiasm or ticket sales for either club. I don't know of any fans who refuse to buy tickets or attend games because they are played on FieldTurf and not natural grass. This is a bogus argument, even at the D2 level.

[Trillium]

The Whitecaps are sharing Empire Field and BC Place with the BC Lions, both pitches are FieldTurf. The pitch at Empire is spectacular frankly and there is no sign whatsoever of the football gridiron markings on Whitecaps match days. The same will undoubtedly apply at BC Place later this year. Sharing the facility and FieldTurf sure doesn't seem to affect fan enthusiasm or ticket sales for either club. I don't know of any fans who refuse to buy tickets or attend games because they are played on FieldTurf and not natural grass. This is a bogus argument, even at the D2 level.

The fan base even your casual lotus eater fan in Van, will realize its a temporary stadia to be torn down, three years from now in BC place with a worn out carpet....mmm not so sure.

I love field turf for community fields it is the solution and for universitys etc. but for soccer specific venues nothing beats natural turf with a artificial training field near by, that should be the standard to develop... especially at the Div 2 Level if t14 he citys and ownerships have bigger visions.... Saputo ... 14 million to build natural turf.. next year 20k natural turf and space to put in a field turf training field within fifty metres of the small stadium and a full size winter stadia with 55k seating... no one in Canada can match that at present.

When the FSQ gets its act together its going to be a lovely site for international matches.

[tmcmurph]

It's a common practice in building sports fields. It's called crowning the field for drainage after rain. The centre of the field is higher and slopes towards the sides. This way water does not sit on the field and doesn't require expensive underground drainage pipes since gravity will keep the water flowing to the side lines. In some baseball fields if you sit behind home plate you can only see the out fielders from the knees up.

Yea I know why they do it. The owners are cheap and it doesn't matter to their main tennant (CFL). I was curious as to which stadia in Canada do that and which have a level field. I'm willing to bet all outdoor CFL stadia are that way with the possible exception of the old Commonwealth.

Seeing the baseball players from the knees up? Too funny. I've never heard that one before. They would look like midgets.