Reggae Boyz hit new low

[Whither Canada]

quote:Originally posted by Juby

english is a language of change, everywhere you go you find new varients, English itself has a tonne of east Indian, French (especially in Canada) and even old native carib words. It's a constant in language that dialects will develope (why don't you go australia and tell them not to say certian words while your at it). Language change is natural (If you go back to england like 400, 500 years a go you would be almost incomprehensible, the same will probably be true 400 years from now) and language is undeniably tied into culture, so it's just not an issue you can go around saying right and wrong about.

And really, look at how the world is developing, in 50 years the chinese will try (unsuccessfully) to make mandarin the language of international business, India will probably try and put it's stamp down too, and at the end of it, everyone will just agree to be different. I guareentee you English will not become the new latin cause most of the world will laugh in your face if you tried to force it down there throats. English has an international advantage right now in business because everyone wants to work with us but that will change as power shifts and if we sit around expecting the world to work in english for us, we will fall behind.

English already has become the new Latin, and not because it's being forced down anyone's throat. Foreigners have recognized that that's the way they need to communicate with the rest of the world.

And I'm not sure why you think standard English will be going away any time soon. Agreed English is in a constant state of flux, but the change is very gradual.

We agree to disagree. I think I'm right, so do you.

Except I'm more right than you are []

(Edited for spelling, because I care so much )

[jpg75]

quote:Originally posted by Juby

1) I didn't put words in your mouth, you said using patois in school was lowering the bar, is using canadian english in our schools lowering the bar? no, so if one is true and the other is not, what you were saying is obvious.

Not teaching them english IS lowering the bar. It's not a matter of teaching them one or the other, they need to learn BOTH! Fine, you want to teach them in patois? knock yourself out. Want to not teach them english because "it's too hard" you're doing these kids a disservice.

BTW, there is no "Canadian English". We learn British English in this country, that's why we spell colour, grey etc. the way we do. And yes, our military pronounces it "leftenant".

quote:Originally posted by Juby

2)yes we learn french in school but our school isn't taught in French (unless of course your in quebec or french immersion), you learn everything in your language except when your learning another language. I got no problem with learning extra languages but what your describing is alot more like old native policy then current Canadian schools.

But we still learn 2 languages, they are not. Fine, teach math and science and music in patois, there's very little to do with written language in the main principles of those disciplines. But the fact remains, English must be taught or these kids will be left behind. Learning French and English opens up a lot of doors in our country.

quote:Originally posted by Juby

3) like I said, try putting yourself in the shoes of a 4 year old who speaks canadian english and then you go to a patois school where they teach every subject except say french in Patois, yer screwed. You are raising the bar because you have to have a natural ability to learn languages to succede in that system or else you wash out.

Again, Canadian English? A natural ability to learn languages? Man, every human being has it in them to learn multiple languages, especially at a young age. You talk like these poor, black Jamaicans are incapable of learning at the same level as us. Get this straight; the majority of patois speakers are poor, you either help them learn English to open opportunities or you dismiss learning English as too hard and subject them and their desendants to a life of poverty.

quote:Originally posted by Juby

Like honestly, your response was completely off the mark. Your comparing Canada, where kids learn in their natural language except for 40 minutes to an hour of french to a system where kids have to work in English over Patois for everything. If Jamaicans want to come to Canada or elsewhere and do international business, they will learn standerdized english, just like you would learn german if you were moving to germany but your saying that every Jamaican needs to know our english even though most are going to continue to live and work in Jamaica. Jamaicans would be better off if everyone had a decent education regardless of what language they spoke, rather then an education system geared externally instead of internally. You really think that If a Jamaican learns in a patois school that he is doomed to failure? maybe outside of Jamaica but thats your standards.

The exact same thing happened with our natives but more brutally, they were told they couldn't speak in their natural language (which is far more brutal) and had to learn english, they were told their native languages were inferior and useless, and now *surprise surprise* they have a culture gap and low self esteem is rampant.

I'm not saying Jamaican shouldn't learn our english ever, but every Jamaican should be able to get his high school degree in his native language.

The native language of Jamaica is English. Most Jamaicans can actually speak English, and quite properly i may add. The language of academics and industry in Jamaiaca is English. The difference between English and Patois speakers if i understand it correctly is primarily education level and economics. English is the great equalizer in the economic struggle for the poor, if you learn it you'll have a chance. If you don't, you limit your opportunities. To say a patois speaker has abundant opportunities in Jamaica is false, most business is still conducted in English.

And forget your native examples, that's just naive and offensive to our native peoples. Natives have a legitimately different language and culture then the European settlers, Patois speakers and English speakers in Jamaica share many more similarities than differences.

[jpg75]

quote:Originally posted by Juby

1) I didn't put words in your mouth, you said using patois in school was lowering the bar, is using canadian english in our schools lowering the bar? no, so if one is true and the other is not, what you were saying is obvious.

Not teaching them english IS lowering the bar. It's not a matter of teaching them one or the other, they need to learn BOTH! Fine, you want to teach them in patois? knock yourself out. Want to not teach them english because "it's too hard" you're doing these kids a disservice.

BTW, there is no "Canadian English". We learn British English in this country, that's why we spell colour, grey etc. the way we do. And yes, our military pronounces it "leftenant".

quote:Originally posted by Juby

2)yes we learn french in school but our school isn't taught in French (unless of course your in quebec or french immersion), you learn everything in your language except when your learning another language. I got no problem with learning extra languages but what your describing is alot more like old native policy then current Canadian schools.

But we still learn 2 languages, they are not. Fine, teach math and science and music in patois, there's very little to do with written language in the main principles of those disciplines. But the fact remains, English must be taught or these kids will be left behind. Learning French and English opens up a lot of doors in our country.

quote:Originally posted by Juby

3) like I said, try putting yourself in the shoes of a 4 year old who speaks canadian english and then you go to a patois school where they teach every subject except say french in Patois, yer screwed. You are raising the bar because you have to have a natural ability to learn languages to succede in that system or else you wash out.

Again, Canadian English? A natural ability to learn languages? Man, every human being has it in them to learn multiple languages, especially at a young age. You talk like these poor, black Jamaicans are incapable of learning at the same level as us. Get this straight; the majority of patois speakers are poor, you either help them learn English to open opportunities or you dismiss learning English as too hard and subject them and their desendants to a life of poverty.

quote:Originally posted by Juby

Like honestly, your response was completely off the mark. Your comparing Canada, where kids learn in their natural language except for 40 minutes to an hour of french to a system where kids have to work in English over Patois for everything. If Jamaicans want to come to Canada or elsewhere and do international business, they will learn standerdized english, just like you would learn german if you were moving to germany but your saying that every Jamaican needs to know our english even though most are going to continue to live and work in Jamaica. Jamaicans would be better off if everyone had a decent education regardless of what language they spoke, rather then an education system geared externally instead of internally. You really think that If a Jamaican learns in a patois school that he is doomed to failure? maybe outside of Jamaica but thats your standards.

The exact same thing happened with our natives but more brutally, they were told they couldn't speak in their natural language (which is far more brutal) and had to learn english, they were told their native languages were inferior and useless, and now *surprise surprise* they have a culture gap and low self esteem is rampant.

I'm not saying Jamaican shouldn't learn our english ever, but every Jamaican should be able to get his high school degree in his native language.

The native language of Jamaica is English. Most Jamaicans can actually speak English, and quite properly i may add. The language of academics and industry in Jamaiaca is English. The difference between English and Patois speakers if i understand it correctly is primarily education level and economics. English is the great equalizer in the economic struggle for the poor, if you learn it you'll have a chance. If you don't, you limit your opportunities. To say a patois speaker has abundant opportunities in Jamaica is false, most business is still conducted in English.

And forget your native examples, that's just naive and offensive to our native peoples. Natives have a legitimately different language and culture then the European settlers, Patois speakers and English speakers in Jamaica share many more similarities than differences.

[Juby]

obviously your a dumbass. 1) your saying whats legit and whats not, thats greating stupid. your saying British english is better then Patois, it's not better or worse, it's just different.

2) Canadian English is close to old british english but theres alot of quirks that have become official. honestly, I dare you to put a 4 year old english speaking kid in a patois school and see if he can keep up. Your comparing one person being taught in there language and learning another to someone who has to learn to read and write completely different in every aspect of school. Some people are better at learning languages then others, and those are the ones who adapt in jamaican public school, the others struggle until they learn a new language instead of keeping up in most subjects and just falling behind the other language class like Canadian kids(the majority of Canadian kids are not billingual as far as french and english is concerned).

You keep associating patois with failure, Most Jamaicans aren't going to leave Jamaica, why does British English matter at all in their success. You can run a business in Jamaica easily if you only speak Patois, and those with bigger ambitions will want to learn british english, just like most countries.

Honestly, I don't see how you can't realize that if you show up for grade 1 and your teacher won't acknowledge anything that is written in the language that comes natural to you, you will fall behind unless your someone who's naturally good with languages (and some people are better then others). Some of the kids who's parents speak patois will spend the first few years just trying to figure out the language and then they have to catch up, I don't know about you but to me thats pretty disheartening. Of course you can keep ranting about how it's not too difficult at all but all your elementary school and high school teachers generally talked and wrote the same way as everyone else in your community. You could write essays in your own words and get graded well for it. These kids start school and the first thing they have to do is start learning how to speak all over again and then learn math and science rather then finger paint and learn some math and science for fun (and eventually seriosly).

edit: you keep acting like a high school degree from a school that speaks patois is useless? For 1, they know everything you would, just in their own words. 2 it's not at all useless in Jamaica, gee whiz, I wonder where someone with a patois high school education in Jamaica could get a decent job, maybe JAMAICA?

edit again: How is english the great equalizer when some kids are raised speaking british english and some Patois? that is the dumbest statement I have ever read.

[jpg75]

quote:Originally posted by Juby

obviously your a dumbass.

Name calling, the last resort. You don't even realize that you're patronizing Jamaicans by insinuating that they're unable to learn both languages! Most Jamaicans know how to speak Patois and proper English, but when it comes to the real world you better be educated in English. Anyways, enough of this.

quote:Originally posted by Juby

1) your saying whats legit and whats not, thats greating stupid. your saying British english is better then Patois, it's not better or worse, it's just different.

When they open the University of Patois, let me know.

quote:Originally posted by Juby

honestly, I dare you to put a 4 year old english speaking kid in a patois school and see if he can keep up. Your comparing one person being taught in there language and learning another to someone who has to learn to read and write completely different in every aspect of school. Some people are better at learning languages then others, and those are the ones who adapt in jamaican public school, the others struggle until they learn a new language instead of keeping up in most subjects and just falling behind the other language class like Canadian kids(the majority of Canadian kids are not billingual as far as french and english is concerned).

Newfies. Do they enter Grade 1 and learn English or Newfie? Think about that.

quote:Originally posted by Juby

You keep associating patois with failure, Most Jamaicans aren't going to leave Jamaica, why does British English matter at all in their success. You can run a business in Jamaica easily if you only speak Patois, and those with bigger ambitions will want to learn british english, just like most countries.

Want to bankroll business loans for every Patois speaking Jamaican? Didn't think so. Alot of them will need to find jobs, some of them might want high paying ones. Why are you limiting them by forcing them to learn English later on when they realize they have ambitions? It's much easier to teach kids 2 languages at an early age then to force them to play catch up in their teens.

quote:Originally posted by Juby

Honestly, I don't see how you can't realize that if you show up for grade 1 and your teacher won't acknowledge anything that is written in the language that comes natural to you, you will fall behind unless your someone who's naturally good with languages (and some people are better then others). Some of the kids who's parents speak patois will spend the first few years just trying to figure out the language and then they have to catch up, I don't know about you but to me thats pretty disheartening. Of course you can keep ranting about how it's not too difficult at all but all your elementary school and high school teachers generally talked and wrote the same way as everyone else in your community. You could write essays in your own words and get graded well for it. These kids start school and the first thing they have to do is start learning how to speak all over again and then learn math and science rather then finger paint and learn some math and science for fun (and eventually seriosly).

What part of teach them the core curriculum in patois and then teach them English as a language course didn't you understand? But atleast teach them English the way French is taught here (or better yet, start earlier like Grade 1)

quote:Originally posted by Juby

edit: you keep acting like a high school degree from a school that speaks patois is useless? For 1, they know everything you would, just in their own words. 2 it's not at all useless in Jamaica, gee whiz, I wonder where someone with a patois high school education in Jamaica could get a decent job, maybe JAMAICA?

edit again: How is english the great equalizer when some kids are raised speaking british english and some Patois? that is the dumbest statement I have ever read.

Nestle has an office in Kingston, want to bet that Patois is the dominant language spoken in the office? Want to bet that Digicel official communications are done in Patois? What about at Red Stripe HQ's?

[Guest speedmonk42]

You're both right.

[jpg75]

quote:Originally posted by speedmonk42

You're both right.

Thank you.

[Juby]

quote:Originally posted by jpg75

Name calling, the last resort. You don't even realize that you're patronizing Jamaicans by insinuating that they're unable to learn both languages! Most Jamaicans know how to speak Patois and proper English, but when it comes to the real world you better be educated in English. Anyways, enough of this.

When they open the University of Patois, let me know.

Newfies. Do they enter Grade 1 and learn English or Newfie? Think about that.

Want to bankroll business loans for every Patois speaking Jamaican? Didn't think so. Alot of them will need to find jobs, some of them might want high paying ones. Why are you limiting them by forcing them to learn English later on when they realize they have ambitions? It's much easier to teach kids 2 languages at an early age then to force them to play catch up in their teens.

What part of teach them the core curriculum in patois and then teach them English as a language course didn't you understand? But atleast teach them English the way French is taught here (or better yet, start earlier like Grade 1)

Nestle has an office in Kingston, want to bet that Patois is the dominant language spoken in the office? Want to bet that Digicel official communications are done in Patois? What about at Red Stripe HQ's?

After a good game of soccer, I care a little less, but I'll giver a go, and I'll admit the dumbass comment was mean, I was a little exasperated cause were both just refining our arguements.

the most obvious problem is that Patois is way different from english then a newfie accent

Who said a bank would give loans to every patois speaker? thats just silly, but they shouldn't judge him unfit for a loan because he speaks Patois, he is just as likely to be responsible as anyone despite how he speaks, the way someone speaks is not indicitive of there charecter

I never said Jamaicans couldn't learn two languages, only you did(edit: not meaning you said that, meaning you said I said that), the difference is that in your system THEY HAVE TO, in ours, you can graduate knowing next to no french, And the ones with the head start are the quick language learners and the upper class.

And if you gave me they should be learning some (if not most) of there school in Patois then we really have nothing to be argueing about, I just think they should be able to get a high school degree and not have to learn the other english perfectly, just like we don't have to learn french but we all know it would help for international business.

Which leads to my next point, you pointed out examples of international business, which at there top levels, I'd bet your right, do have to speak standerdized english but I bet most of there jobs (granted the lesser paying ones) are fine with people who pretty much speak justvpatois. Like I said, Ambitious people take advantage and put in an effort to learn standard english cause they plan on dealing internationally. But there is still a huge amount of business in Jamaica that would probably function just as well with a guy who only speaks Patois.

I even agree with you that we should be making our kids learn more languages earlier (maybe make it a diploma requirement) when there better at it but if we don't make our kids have to, we got no place to tell them they have too.

[Paddy]

Lets see if I can help kill this thread:

[redhat]

C'mon lads. All this debate about proper English and patois ...

Probably time to close this discussion and agree to disagree.

The thread was about the Gae Boyz hitting a new low.

Have we, the Voyageurs, done the same?

[Juby]

agreed, My bad, I should let things go easier, I'm just sort of stubborn and sometimes I feel like if I just give up on argueing with someone, that everyone will think I'm admitting I'm wrong, when really, most people would probably just think I have a life.

[jpg75]

Yeah, we'll agree to disagree...

Paddy you missed this one:

[Paddy]

quote:Originally posted by jpg75

Yeah, we'll agree to disagree...

Paddy you missed this one:

Looks like she can do a lot more than just open it.

[bettermirror]

this thread is pointless. closed.