Personal vitriol unnecessary

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by Winnipeg Fury

I could care less about the media angle, but agree with the general sentiment of JL.

Too often people are taking personal swipes at one another, for no particular reason. We have lost some quality people over the years because of this.

I agree, it is only the people lacking in quality who have stayed on. What a sad bunch we are, imagine having to come to this: a journalist from a city where you can't even watch semi-pro soccer telling us what a bevy of swindlers and coarse talkers we are.

[The Beaver]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

I agree, it is only the people lacking in quality who have stayed on. What a sad bunch we are, imagine having to come to this: a journalist from a city where you can't even watch semi-pro soccer telling us what a bevy of swindlers and coarse talkers we are.

Wow, a topic intended to curb the vitriol seems to have had the opposite effect. Sort of like trying to convince Quebec to remain in the Confederation; road to hell is paved with...

Jeffrey, I assume you are not taking the piss here, but I'm pretty sure that Winnipeg Fury is NOT suggesting that those who still post here are the sad, shi.t-slinging remnants of a once good forum. After all, he still posts here, and I'm sure he's not suggesting he is of low birth, poor breeding and shi.te quality. I'm pretty certain, too, that we are all much nicer in person: the threat of getting smacked in the mug tends to make us Canucks polite in company, eh?

[Jeremy Loome]

Part of the issue here Jeffrey (et al) is that the media DOES see this as the official fan club of soccer, the unofficial sounding off board of soccer etc. They consult it to see who is moving where, which youth players are coming up etc.

They don't write about soccer largely because of two schools of thought: The first is a group of sportswriters that still think the four traditional NA sports are the only ones worthy; they are the biggest impediment to coverage. But they also rely on flaccid, specious arguments to support that contention. And any ammunition they can get just aids that cause.

The others -- the ones who recognize the game's strengths and its international following -- DO check this site, because you guys get scoops on player movement.

But imagine how much more of an impact the site could have if they actually checked it to get your opinions. And if you think that's patronizing, well, that goes a long way to explaining the sorry state of professional soccer in Canada.

You're given an opportunity, via your membership in a large lobby group, to have a major effect on the progress of the game you love. Instead, when it is suggested this be done with a little more diplomacy (i.e. dumping vitriol -- which is what I suggested, not dumping debate, not "being nice") it instead turns into a two-page thread about how much you resent being lectured.

Well, here's a suggestion: the next time you think about complaining about soccer press coverage, just consider a statement like:

"If the media want to judge us by what we post, that is fine, including pegging us as nuts. We do the same -judge- with the media, which is generally grade school when it comes to soccer in Canada.

How then might we help the media? Be nicer to each other.

Why doesn't the media ask itself how it can help us the fans (and their readers)? Which they don't by patronizing, by terrible fact checking, by treating Canadian soccer fans as dumb, by parochial story lines? Jeremy? Anyone?'

Yep, being insulted by someone who has nothing to do with the media, knows nothing about how it operates, in particular knows nothing about how much influence I may exert within my own chain, knows nothing about its priorities, the business of it, the internal operations of it, the way journalists are trained etc etc. Yep, that's going to help.

Congratulations. You managed to make my point.

I should also note, however, that a wider review of the current threads is substantially less personal in the nature of the debates, so maybe I was jumping the gun. In case anybody wonders why, though, it's because one single thread -- the second one I happened to open -- managed to contain:

"That is just a stupid comment"

"More of your useless diatribe."

"you are on a personal agenda"

"your useless little diatribes are nothing more than trolling at this point and should be dealt with as such."

"Big sigh (will the idiocy never end?)"

"What is your agenda that you make such idiotic accusations?"

"Guys that don't have any reasonable arguments usually resort to baseless accusations."

"Amazing coincidence, but enough to satisfy the naive and clueless, which I am not among. Continue living in your own world of naivety and stupidity."

If I was going to step into a bad example of what happens when civility goes awry , that was probably it.

J

[Duane Rollins1555362254]

quote:Originally posted by Jeremy Loome

Yep, being insulted by someone who has nothing to do with the media, knows nothing about how it operates, in particular knows nothing about how much influence I may exert within my own chain, knows nothing about its priorities, the business of it, the internal operations of it, the way journalists are trained etc etc. Yep, that's going to help.

Hear, hear...(and for the record...not meant as a flame...note the spelling).

[youllneverwalkalone]

Perhaps my understanding of *journalism* is trapped in the last century, but isn't it Jeremy's job to get us the scoops? I mean, most of us go to work all day. (Granted, I'm a little bit suspicious of Loyola, cause how can he be working and reading 2nd division Dutch web sites is beyond me.) Wouldn't it be nice if you could go to Jeremy's web site and get some useful information? Tell me Jeremy, who is Canada's next manager?

Must be a new paradigm, so to speak. Makes you wonder though: If Jeremy has time to get into a pissing match with people on the internet, wouldn't he have time to break a story or two? Frankly, I'm a bit surprised nobody's called him a twat.

[youllneverwalkalone]

Perhaps my understanding of *journalism* is trapped in the last century, but isn't it Jeremy's job to get us the scoops? I mean, most of us go to work all day. (Granted, I'm a little bit suspicious of Loyola, cause how can he be working and reading 2nd division Dutch web sites is beyond me.) Wouldn't it be nice if you could go to Jeremy's web site and get some useful information? Tell me Jeremy, who is Canada's next manager?

Must be a new paradigm, so to speak. Makes you wonder though: If Jeremy has time to get into a pissing match with people on the internet, wouldn't he have time to break a story or two? Frankly, I'm a bit surprised nobody's called him a twat.

[Duane Rollins1555362254]

quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

Perhaps my understanding of *journalism* is trapped in the last century, but isn't it Jeremy's job to get us the scoops?

Scoops come from knowledgeable sources that the general public does not know/have access to. That's journalism last century and this. In 1956, the reporter hung out at the local pub and listened. In 2005, he or she lurks at discussion boards and reads MySpace pages. You tell me what the difference is?

[youllneverwalkalone]

The essential difference is that Jeremy is not reporting SFA! Once it's on this board the news is out. This isn't a pub or you'd already be lying in a pool of your own blood for being so foolish. It's guys like Loyola, Daniel, and Sigma who do all the digging in foreign lands. They are the reporters for Canadian soccer -with the exception of Neil Davidson, who is the only member of the media with any real contacts and any ability to provide "news." NEW-S.

[RS]

quote:Originally posted by MediaGuy

Scoops come from knowledgeable sources that the general public does not know/have access to. That's journalism last century and this. In 1956, the reporter hung out at the local pub and listened. In 2005, he or she lurks at discussion boards and reads MySpace pages. You tell me what the difference is?

The difference is that the reporter at the pub didn't publicly admonish his 'sources' for not playing nice.

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

The essential difference is that Jeremy is not reporting SFA! Once it's on this board the news is out. This isn't a pub or you'd already be lying in a pool of your own blood for being so foolish. It's guys like Loyola, Daniel, and Sigma who do all the digging in foreign lands. They are the reporters for Canadian soccer -with the exception of Neil Davidson, who is the only member of the media with any real contacts and any ability to provided "news." NEW-S.

Thanks for that.

And for the record, I'm working 35-40 hrs a week in an office, studying full time for a master degree, still play a lot of soccer and still find times to read Cambuur website.....

[Duane Rollins1555362254]

quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

The essential difference is that Jeremy is not reporting SFA! Once it's on this board the news is out. This isn't a pub or you'd already be lying in a pool of your own blood for being so foolish. It's guys like Loyola, Daniel, and Sigma who do all the digging in foreign lands. They are the reporters for Canadian soccer -with the exception of Neil Davidson, who is the only member of the media with any real contacts and any ability to provided "news." NEW-S.

You're simply wrong. Incredibly so. And, even more interestingly, you are suggesting that the only contacts that can give newsworthy information are official--quite possibly the worst contacts out there (unless you consider trite rhetoric interesting). A journalist that doesn't take full advantage of places like this is a VERY BAD journalist. This is a place where you can get leads, where you can make contacts, and, if you are a freelancer/new journalist, where you can establish your name.

And, finally, the CSA isn't exactly the Leafs. It isn't that hard to interview "important" people. After exactly one e-mail request, I received a phone call from Holgar Osieck a couple of years ago and, trust me, I'm NO ONE. Clearly reading these boards are part f the reporting process, not the entirety of it.

[youllneverwalkalone]

I'm not suggesting anything. We can debate whether the sky is blue, but at the end of the day Neil Davidson is the only member of the media who has provided any news to this board. Even Grizzly said so, and if he and I agree, it must be true.

The sentiment I'm expressing is 'deficate or get off the pot' Jeremy Loome. Give us a story and we'll give you some respect. Cry about us in public and you'll get nothing but a hard time. You need not be a fortune teller to see that coming.

[Duane Rollins1555362254]

quote:Originally posted by youllneverwalkalone

I'm not suggesting anything. We can debate whether the sky is blue, but at the end of the day Neil Davidson is the only member of the media who has provided any news to this board. Even Grizzly said so, and if he and I agree, it must be true.

The sentiment I'm expressing is 'deficate or get off the pot' Jeremy Loome. Give us a story and we'll give you some respect. Cry about us in public and you'll get nothing but a hard time. You need not be a fortune teller to see that coming.

Fair enough. To be clear, I didn't know who Jeremy Loome was prior to my googling his name 10 minutes ago. I just think people tend to blame "the media" too often without a clear understanding of how it works. I suspect Loome is limited in what he can report by those more important than him in the newsroom. For instance, I am quite regularly in contact with an individual that covers university sports for one of this country’s major newspapers. I know for a fact that he or she has to battle for every inch that gets in the paper and that, literally, 3/4 of what he or she submits is cut. I can’t speak for Loome, but I would suspect that soccer coverage is not an automatic in his newsroom.

[Guest Jeffery S.]

Just to be clear that Jeremy and I have even messaged privately, I respect him a lot, think he is a serious sport journalist.

My point is that there is no way you can get a bunch of soccer fans to represent themselves as a single face and unified idea, especially if the motive for doing so is to try to help public opinion about the game. We are not responsible for how the rest of Canadians think about soccer, and it is neither fair nor reasonable to ask us to perform that task.

Sure, Jeremy is right, a site with great scoops and interesting analysis would be a fine site to reference, especially for someone like him interested in showing his colleagues the level, precisely, of information and understanding Canadian soccer fans have. But he wants that without the rest, and I am convinced there is no way he can have it. You cannot have the wheat without the chaff in this case, it is against the spirit of an internet forum, against the concept of plural expression and diversity that is fundamental to the country we love. Which is why he is not wrong to worry about personal vitriol, he is wrong to want it toned down so that other more positive things happening on the Voyageurs board can be instrumentalized. Can't happen, Jeremy.

Which is why I have pointed out, a bit provocatively perhaps, that you cannot ask us something unreasonable and then not be at all willing to ensure us -equally unreasonable to be sure- that your estate will show a better face so that OUR OBJECTIVES might be equally met. Its a two way street, and I am surprised you are not willing to recognize that vitriol on "our" side is no more negative than technical ignorance, disdain, frivolity and misinformation on "yours".

Only it is not a question of equal responsiblity. Yours is much greater Jeremy, it is greater legally and professionally. An error in a newspaper or on tv is not the same as an error by an individual poster on a fan forum. You know this, or at least you should, practically if you have fact-checked or faced a suit, or formally if you happen to belong to a professional college or association for journalists. Professional journalists have obligations and responsiblities that go beyond their position as mere citizens, while posters on a fan forum are usually exempted from even those minimal requirements (which is why you'll never win a sue for libel or slander against what someone posts on a board like this). I don't think we are even recognized as public in legal terms. That is a huge difference, which is why I think Jeremy is quite wrong to ask something of us when the weight of responsiblity and professionalism is so heavily leaning to those on "his" side of things.