Jarrek Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 Italy wins 2-1 ... even though they win they're out since Danes tied the Swedes 2-2. I thought the reffing was kind of lop-sided towards the Bulgars. But in the end it was Italy's own doing. Had they played the whole tourney like they played the 2nd half of this match the outcome would have been different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 I think the Italians only have themselves to blame since they only played two halfs of good football the whole tournament (the first against the Swedes and today's second half). I thought the penalty was justified. The Bulgarian did go down easily but it is hard to argue a penalty when you have your arms wrapped around a player. The announcer seemed to think the Italians could have had a penalty in the second half but I thought it was a bit borderline. The Bulgarians were the better side in the first and 1-0 was not out of line with the run of play. The Italians were the better side in the second half but still not dominant like they were in the first half against Sweden. After that half I thought they would win 3-0 but then they sat back with their lead and let Sweden dominate them the way they had dominated earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJT Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Grizzly I thought the penalty was justified. The Bulgarian did go down easily but it is hard to argue a penalty when you have your arms wrapped around a player. The announcer seemed to think the Italians could have had a penalty in the second half but I thought it was a bit borderline. I would suggest the reverse. I think the call Italy didn't get was much more clearly a penalty than the one that Bulgaria did get. The Bulgarian backed into the defender so there's always a question there; meanwhile the guy who tackled Cassano (?) did not play the ball at all and just took down his legs. And yeah, you can call me a biased Italian but you'll just have to believe me when I say that I'm pretty fair (especially compared to many other Italians I've talked to (not people on this board)). It's moot anyway. Italy could have won this game 20-0 and they would still be out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 He may have been backing into the defender but the defender had his arms around him like a Grandmother seeing her Grandson for the first time in 10 years. In the second instance the tackle seemed to me to arrive a bit early and the Italian then ran over his outstretched legs which he could have avoided. A more interesting issue, however, is whether the Sweden/Denmark game was fixed considering a 2-2 result would put both of them through regardless of the other result. It is certainly suspicious when Sweden ties it up in the last minute. On the other hand I have never had any sympathy for teams that rely on other results to qualify so if it was fixed the Italians dug their grave themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarrek Posted June 22, 2004 Author Share Posted June 22, 2004 I think the PK call against Italy was justified, but the same could have been said when the Italian forward was brought down just inside the box. The ref didn't call what should have been an obvious penalty. I agree with Grizzly, Italy has only itself to blame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Grizzly He may have been backing into the defender but the defender had his arms around him like a Grandmother seeing her Grandson for the first time in 10 years. In the second instance the tackle seemed to me to arrive a bit early and the Italian then ran over his outstretched legs which he could have avoided. A more interesting issue, however, is whether the Sweden/Denmark game was fixed considering a 2-2 result would put both of them through regardless of the other result. It is certainly suspicious when Sweden ties it up in the last minute. On the other hand I have never had any sympathy for teams that rely on other results to qualify so if it was fixed the Italians dug their grave themselves. That penalty was not worse than the one on Ruud in the Czech game. But what happens in these tournaments is that refs meet and discuss errors, problematic tendencies, to try to stay consistent and elminate criticism. It is likely they dealt with Mejuto not giving Ruud a call as a possible error, making it easier for the ref to call this one. Tremendously emotional to see Cassano celebrate as if the goal had put them through, when he gets to the bench they tell him the Nordics tied 2-2 and he falls apart. One of the most emotional moments of the Eurocup to see how his face changed, I felt for him. I only saw the goals as they cut away for them during the Italy-Bulgaria game but it seems the Danes and Swedes fought hard and even though the result was what they wanted I don't think it will look like a fix. But would have to see the whole thing to know for sure. Anyone else get a take on that one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 Just saw the penalty against the Danes and think it was a poor decision, not very much contact made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanKeay Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahhahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Concacaf Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 oh what a pity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarrek Posted June 22, 2004 Author Share Posted June 22, 2004 After that 2nd Swedish goal both teams stopped playing. It looked like that Simpsons Soccer episode. At least make it look like you're trying. Puts the game down IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Jarrek After that 2nd Swedish goal both teams stopped playing. It looked like that Simpsons Soccer episode. At least make it look like you're trying. Puts the game down IMHO. Four minutes of playing for a draw is hardly a fix, Cameroon has seen worse. Imagine you push forwards for the win and get hit on a counter and are knocked out in extra time. But I think I might catch part of the match on tape delay later tonight just to feel better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 I haven't read any other posts on this thread. But that was totally scandalous. Right up there on par with Ger-Aut in 82. Just watch that last minutes goal by the swedes again, watch the crowds and watch the end of game celebartions carefully. Then see if you can tell me with straight face that the fix wasn't in. I've lost all respect for Sweden nd Denmark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Concacaf Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 I know, reminds me of Italy-Mexico at world cup 2002... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayWay Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 Free Kick, Are you suggesting that the fans were in on it too? Why shouldn't they be happy? It was a victory for Scandenavia. I see no difference between this and the way many Voyageurs on this board celebrated CONCACAF's success in Korea and Japan. I know that if I was wittness to a Canada-USA 2-2 game that saw both team's through to the knockout stages in the World Cup, I'd defintely celerbate in the name of North American soccer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S. Four minutes of playing for a draw is hardly a fix, Cameroon has seen worse. Imagine you push forwards for the But just watch in the final goal how the defender gets so easily beaten and see how the keeper conveneiently drops an easily catchable ball. No doubt a fix and a shame for the sport Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 quote:Originally posted by JayWay Free Kick, Are you suggesting that the fans were in on it too? Why shouldn't they be happy? It was a victory for Scandenavia. I see no difference between this and the way many Voyageurs on this board celebrated CONCACAF's success in Korea and Japan. I know that if I was wittness to a Canada-USA 2-2 game that saw both team's through to the knockout stages in the World Cup, I'd defintely celerbate in the name of North American soccer. Just watch the players celebrations carefully again. You may note several players congatulating each other on both sides. Then you see one player walking away looking distraught while his teammates are celebrating. I was at work today following everything though the internet and never really bought or thought of a conspiracy even while following on line and knowing the final result. NEVER thought of it honnestly. Then when I got home and saw the tying goal I was convinced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayWay Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 If it was a fix, don't you think they'd be a little less obvious about it? The fact that they were upfront about their mutual happiness probably indicates that they were celebrating for the same reason the fans were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 quote:Originally posted by JayWay If it was a fix, don't you think they'd be a little less obvious about it? The fact that they were upfront about their mutual happiness probably indicates that they were celebrating for the same reason the fans were. Your supposed to play the game for your own benefit. Everybody else benefit is irrelevant. You cannot just play for a result that benefits one opponent at the detriment of another. Unless you play to win of course !!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayWay Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 Eh? It was to each team's benefit to take as little risk as possible in the dying minutes of the match. What's the matter with that, then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gian-Luca Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 I'll have to give the Swedes and the Danes credit - they almost pulled it off. They almost made it look convincing. Having the tying goal with just a minute left on the clock was a stroke of genius, that way they only have to pull a few minutes of West Germany vs. Austria rather than do so for the whole match. A few tips of advice next time - try to make the tying goal look more legitimate, rather than be caused by a simple goalkeeping error that the corpse of Lev Yashin could have saved without anybody hitting the castket. Also, the team that is trailing prior to the last minute tying goal needs to play with a bit more urgency in future to make it look totally convincing, which means Sweden looking like they did in the last 15 minutes against Italy rather than the last 15 minutes of this match. Also, the trailing team should be careful to not have players in the last 5 minutes spending an in-ordinate amount of time arguing with the ref over a trivial call such who's throw-in it is - teams that are actually desperate to tie the game don't usually bother doing so. And try not to have your fans with pre-painted signs of "2-2" in the crowd and on their faces, though I do admit that is difficult to control. If you can eliminate these sorts of things, you might even get away with it next time. Don't get me wrong - Italy must blame themselves (or more accurately, their coach) for their elimination as they had the talent & ability to win either game against Sweden or Denmark. But to see a team go home un-defeated and with a winning record in this fashion does bother me a little. It also bothers me that when Italy & Mexico passed the ball around in the same fashion in injury time in the 2002 World Cup knowing that a 1-1 draw saw them both through, their actions were derided and criticized harshly and probably quite rightly. But Sweden & Denmark do it and many people are saying it is okay. Can we at least avoid total, obvious hypocrisy? Before the avalanche of complaints about my post come in, let me state that when I first heard the score was 2-2 with a last minute goal by the Swedes I thought that Italy was just plain unlucky and I dismissed the claims of "fixed" by the other Italians (none of whom I knew) at the bar where I saw the last 8 minutes of the Italy game. They said the tying goal was a "papare" (Italian for really bad goal), but I thought it was just a case of pissed off biased Italian fans making excuses. It was only until I got home that & saw the Danish-Swede match that I realized they might be right after all. It certainly looks pretty damn suspicious. We'll probably never know, and it's too late to do anything about it anyway so I'm not going to lose sleep over it. I just hope that the collusion, whether it actually happened or not, isn't used as an excuse to keep Trappatoni around, as it never even would have come down to this possibility had he had the team ready to go for game 1, not made silly subs in game 2 and not left out the top scorer in Serie A for being "too young" when he's two years older than the leading scorer at Euro2004 thus far. That's two tourneys in a row under Trappatoni where Italy progressed nowhere near as far as they should have. He doesn't seem to know how to coach in tournaments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarrek Posted June 22, 2004 Author Share Posted June 22, 2004 quote:Four minutes of playing for a draw is hardly a fix, Cameroon has seen worse. Imagine you push forwards for the win and get hit on a counter and are knocked out in extra time. But I think I might catch part of the match on tape delay later tonight just to feel better. Nowhere am I implying that it was one. I'd do without the passing at the end of the game. quote:Eh? It was to each team's benefit to take as little risk as possible in the dying minutes of the match. What's the matter with that, then? At least move the ball around the field a bit. The problem with the ending of the Sweden - Denmark game, was that the passing between the three Swedish defenders made the game look REALLY bad, and to some - suspicious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 I don't think there is any way to eliminate such scenarios in tournaments so every team has to play 100% in each game and control their own destiny. In all honesty this was a group Italy should have won hands down. I am sure Germany or Holland would have loved to be in this group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeffery S. Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 What I don't get is why the players celebrating at the end would be valid evidence for a fix but the Danish defenders showing frustration at the last goal would not be valid. But I am not saying it does not look suspicious, all I am saying is that arranging a 2-2 draw is damn difficult. All I have seen is the goal, and it did not look like a deliberate goalkeeper give-away G-L, I think you are going overboard on that. Are you really trying to say that the keeper deliberately fumbled the ball onto the feet of the opposing team's striker so he could put it in? That is probably more difficult than actually holding it. Or that if the bounce had gone to the nearest Danish back he wouldn't have cleared it? But if you want to look foolish instead of just upset and a bit suspicious that is up to you. It was certainly in Denmark's favour to win the match and come across as looking as clean as possible. If they had any on the field information about the other match, quite common in any case (Swedish fans or their bench would have been telling them, and the Danes would have known as they understand the language), they would have believed that Italy was drawing and there was no point to raise suspicions. Reasonable doubt? Not to mention that any tripe about the Nordics being in collusion shows an ignorance of their opinion of each other, in this sport and many other things they are bitter rivals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vancouver Fan Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 As an Italian I have to say that Italy's elimination from this tournament is due to their continuing strategy of playing for a 1 nil win or not to lose.This style of play has had good results in WC82,WC94 and even at Euro 2000 and WC 90.This year it finally caught up to them.They have won tie breakers in the past but this time they were simply short of goals scored.With the attacking players available they should score at least 2 goals every game.That did not happen in the first 2 games.With a keeper like Buffon to bail you out there has to be more emphasis on attacking play.Teams like England,France,and Czech Rep are all conceding goals but are scoring enough to get themselves 3pts As for the 2-2 result in Sweden/Denmark match I was not surprised.(See my post in Group C thread).I'd love to say it was fixed.But it wasn't.Those were 2 teams looking for a win.They did not want to chance a 1-1 tie.They were playing to score and win.In the end Sweden pressed to score for their survival as did Italy.Both teams pressed and scored late.The difference is the Sweden goal proved to be more important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free kick Posted June 23, 2004 Share Posted June 23, 2004 No doubt that Italy have themselves to blame and yes Group D was much tougher. Another proble is that you just cannot have your key player doing stupid things like spitting on opponents. That is not the kind of character and behavior that you need from your leaders. On the plus side one player you can't blame for the poor tournament is Gianluigi Buffon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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