Italy - Bulgaria (R)

[devioustrevor]

I play an on-line soccer sim called Hattrick, and on the forums a lot of the Italian users are fuming alleging collusion between Denmark and Sweden. Some of them were getting really nasty (especially to the users from Denmark and Sweden) and many, many suspension are imminent. A lot of them are claiming that Sorensen intentionally pushed the ball in front of the Swedish guy who scored the second goal. The fact that Denmark had many, many opportunities to go up 3-1, and that they truly looked despondant after the second Sweden goal seems to be inconsequential to the Italians. Some are even angry that after Sweden's second goal that both teams seemed to stop playing. When others bring up the Mexico-Italy game from the WC, they claim it is 'different'. It is all quite funny. What they don't seem to grasp is that Denmark didn't intentionally let Sweden tie them, think about it, why on earth would Denmark let Sweden tie them thereby leaving themselves in 2nd in their group and having to play the Czechs in the Quarters.

[Mimglow]

A little game to restore Italy's (AHEM) honor:

http://www.giava.com/sputott/

[Gian-Luca]

Czechs, Germans or Dutch, what's the difference? You were going to play a tough team whether you finished first or 2nd in the group. Better to face one of those teams in the Q-F than to not face a team at all because you're going home and if that can be guaranteed ahead of time.....

It looks suspicious, that is all I can really say. It's possible that the incredible fluke of a tying goal due to an incompetent goal keeping error by an otherwise very competent keeper in the last minute of play was an honest fluke. Or perhaps not. Who knows. It's a cruel twist of fate against Italy either way.

I've now seen the Italy game on tape, and to put in two cents on two totally moot incidents that have been discussed in this thread, the Bulgarian penalty is highly debatable - looked like 6 of one, half a dozen against the other and the kind of penalty you would never see called in Serie A. The non-call on the Cassano penalty was quite ridiculous, there is no debate about that whatsoever. As for Bulgaria being the better side in the first half I can't really see what that is based upon, they essentially bunkered and they had only one good chance to score and that was on a highly debatable penalty call whereas Italy could have easily had 3 goals by the end of the half (although they still weren't playing to their potential like they did in the second half and most of the Sweden match).

BTW, check out this link for a great new Italian video game, featuring Totti spitting. Maybe they'll have one of Sorensen spilling as well.

http://www.giava.com/sputott/

[Gian-Luca]

Damn you Mimglow, you beat me to it!

[Mimglow]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Damn you Mimglow, you beat me to it!

Hahahaha. Maybe you could tell me what Totti is saying when he succesfully spits on a Dane?

[Vancouver Fan]

My Totti can barely get his spit past the touch line.Why is he spitting from the stands for anyway?

[devioustrevor]

quote:Originally posted by Vancouver Fan

Why is he spitting from the stands for anyway?

Since he was banned, that is the only way he can get into the stadium.

[Paddy]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

I haven't read any other posts on this thread. But that was totally scandalous. Right up there on par with Ger-Aut in 82.

Just watch that last minutes goal by the swedes again, watch the crowds and watch the end of game celebartions carefully. Then see if you can tell me with straight face that the fix wasn't in.

I've lost all respect for Sweden nd Denmark

You have got to be kidding. Did you even watch the game? Both teams went at it, end of story. Why in the last minute of the game, which was the only time the play was lax and the Swedish defense kicked it around, should they risk getting knocked out of the tournament. They did what they had to and Italy didn't.

[beachesl]

quote:Originally posted by Vancouver Fan

As an Italian I have to say that Italy's elimination from this tournament is due to their continuing strategy of playing for a 1 nil win or not to lose.This style of play has had good results in WC82,WC94 and even at Euro 2000 and WC 90.This year it finally caught up to them.They have won tie breakers in the past but this time they were simply short of goals scored.With the attacking players available they should score at least 2 goals every game.That did not happen in the first 2 games.With a keeper like Buffon to bail you out there has to be more emphasis on attacking play.Teams like England,France,and Czech Rep are all conceding goals but are scoring enough to get themselves 3pts

As for the 2-2 result in Sweden/Denmark match I was not surprised.(See my post in Group C thread).I'd love to say it was fixed.But it wasn't.Those were 2 teams looking for a win.They did not want to chance a 1-1 tie.They were playing to score and win.In the end Sweden pressed to score for their survival as did Italy.Both teams pressed and scored late.The difference is the Sweden goal proved to be more important.

I was cheering for the Italians because they are interesting to watch and I like Italy and Italians. I have had a good time watching the Italian matches in the Trattoria in Edmonton, and I cheered Cassano's goal and mourned their elimination. What you have said, vancouver fan is spot on tho', tho I would not dared to have said it at the Trattoria.

[Massive Attack]

I urge any Italian fans to actually watch the entire Sweden-Denmark match before passing judgement on the result. After Denmark took a 2-1 lead they continued to press, which proves they weren't playing for a 2-2 tie. Sweden's keeper had to make at least 2 excellent diving saves to keep the score at 2-1. As for the game tying goal, it was just as crappy as the one that Ibrahimovic scored against Italy. Once the score reached 2-2, I can't really blame both sides for not trying anymore, seeing as how late it was. Italy dug its own grave, and I believe the karma from the Mexico game (WC 2002) came and bit them in the a.ss today.

[DoyleG]

Italians and Whine don't seem to go together well.

[argh1]

Gosh, and I was upset at the 5' of added time in the Italy- Bulgaria game . Italy needed 3'+ to score the go ahead goal. The ref did Italy a huge favour with so much stoppage time.

[Mimglow]

I think Jon Dahl Tomassson should be kicked off AC Milan for "ruining Italian soccer".

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack

I urge any Italian fans to actually watch the entire Sweden-Denmark match before passing judgement on the result. After Denmark took a 2-1 lead they continued to press, which proves they weren't playing for a 2-2 tie.

It's a moot point but what heck - that doesn't prove anything of the sort. I've seen it argued that because they showed no interest in defending their lead that it proves that they were playing for a pre-arranged 2-2 tie. It did look to me that the Danes were more interesting in scoring than the Swedes at that point which is why I am surprised that people on here actually thought the Swedes were "pressing for the equalizer".

In the end you aren't going to be able to prove anything either way, so it is a bit silly to keep debating about it (and that includes me), it's over and done with and much better to play the Totti spitting game.

Speaking of the Totti game, the key is not to just press the space-bar for the spit, you have to hold it down (doing so you can hear Totti hork it up) and then release when the Danish player is in range.

Hey, you have to had it to the Italians for finding humour in tragedy (which there's been plenty of for Italy in every major senior tourney since 1990).

[Vancouver Fan]

quote:Originally posted by argh1

Gosh, and I was upset at the 5' of added time in the Italy- Bulgaria game . Italy needed 3'+ to score the go ahead goal. The ref did Italy a huge favour with so much stoppage time.

I don't think the ref was generous enough with the time added.For some reason the Bulgarians felt it necassary in the last 30 min.to waste as much time as possible.There must of been 10 min of actual football played by them in that time.I guess they wanted to go home with at least 1 point in the tourney.

[Mimglow]

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/euro2004/feature?id=303846&cc=5901

A question of sport

Roberto Gotta

Do you remember Byron Moreno? The Ecuadorian referee's name became synonymous with incompetence and wickedness two years ago, when his bizarre decisions in Italy's second round match against South Korea were taken by many as the real reason why the Azzurri had gone home.

They weren't, of course, but Moreno - however incompetent and vainly theatrical his performance had been - became the scapegoat and it was easy for the more demagogical and thin-skinned members of the public to forget how dull and disappointing Italy had been in winning only one of their first round matches, against - of all teams - Ecuador.

This time, it looks like fifty assorted Swedes and Danes have donned Moreno masks and rotund costumes and have stepped forward as culprits in the minds of those who have quick answers for every question - none of which involves any kind of personal responsibility.

A 2-2 draw between Denmark and Sweden would have sent Italy home and 2-2 the Swedes and Danes drew.

Did they do it on purpose so that Italy would go home? Well, no one knows, but what would you have done after a couple of days of verbal abuse, innuendo and openly worded suspicions from the Italian camp that the Scandinavian brothers ('come on, Sweden and Denmark are the same thing', the geographically challenged would say) would end their game in the same 2-2 draw that would see them both through?

I would have drawn 2-2 on purpose, with an own goal scored with my backside in the last second of stoppage time and thumbed my nose at my accusers. Never mind that Swedish goalkeeper Isaksson had to make a couple of great diving saves late in the game, one which a RAI reporter inaccurately described as 'a chance which was shot straight at the keeper'.

Obscure stats were brought forward in a subtle manner to further prove the 2-2 between Sweden and Denmark was a fix: 'Denmark have never drawn the third game of a first round group' was the astonishingly useless and non significant piece of information I heard during the match broadcast. Another was that 'Swedes and Danes have only drawn three times out of 98', as if this had any impact on the game in Porto.

There was also disappointment at a couple of decisions by the referee of the Bulgaria match, but many were wise enough to recognize that Italy's fate had mostly been of their own doing.

Going home with no defeats and five points from three matches may seem harsh, but as many commentators - the more honest ones - have noted, Italy has played seven matches in the last two big tournaments and have won just two, against Ecuador two years ago and against Bulgaria on Tuesday, and neither opponents were what one would define as high class.

The usual suspicions of Italy not being a player on the political front was also aroused by some, who pointed out that refereeing decisions always seem to go against the Azzurri in clutch moments. This theory again means that something other than sheer footballing talent is seen as crucial in getting results, and this is a particularly annoying thought, although recent developments (in the Serie A, of all places, with the gambling scandal) have apparently proved just that.

Italian federation president Franco Carraro, while trying to keep his composure and his words under control, disappointingly pointed at the fixture arrangements as a factor against Italy, as if playing the weakest team in the group in the last game wasn't what all teams wished for.

One beautiful hour of football against Sweden was not enough for Italy and there is no doubt now Trapattoni will not have his contract reviewed after next Friday's summit of the Federation.

His job had been on the line since the 2002 World Cup and he looked gone after Italy lost in Wales in the Euro qualifying match, but the FIGC held on to him and were hoping things would right themselves in Portugal when - it was hoped - the amount of talent at Trap's disposal would coalesce and lead the team to the trophy. It was not to be.

You'd expect a team fielding the likes of Totti, Vieri, Del Piero and Cassano to have little trouble scoring goals, but it was left to the latter to score twice and only because he replaced the suspended Totti, whose international epiphany could now be delayed until the 2006 World Cup - if he ever manages to duplicate his Serie A form on the international stage.

Whoever the coach is to take on the impossible job of managing Italy - Marcello Lippi currently the top candidate to look miserable on a sideline some day in June 2006 - will probably have to deal with an exodus of players. Cannavaro, Vieri, Del Piero, Zanetti and a couple of others may soon disappear from the Azzurri scene.

Italy's attempt to qualify for the next World Cup may be based on the talents of emerging players like Cassano and Parma centre-forward Alberto Gilardino, whose omission from the squad that travelled to Portugal was the single most debated matter before Euro 2004, at least among the reasonable ones (which excludes the popular push to include Roberto Baggio).

And - I take a cue from comments being made on Italian TV about the Sweden-Denmark game - please remember that, whatever the circumstances, a 2-2 draw is never, never an acceptable result, but rather a suspicious one, as... there have been so few of them in history. Why not abolish it then?

[Guest Jeffery S.]

quote:Originally posted by Massive Attack

I urge any Italian fans to actually watch the entire Sweden-Denmark match before passing judgement on the result. After Denmark took a 2-1 lead they continued to press, which proves they weren't playing for a 2-2 tie. Sweden's keeper had to make at least 2 excellent diving saves to keep the score at 2-1. As for the game tying goal, it was just as crappy as the one that Ibrahimovic scored against Italy. Once the score reached 2-2, I can't really blame both sides for not trying anymore, seeing as how late it was. Italy dug its own grave, and I believe the karma from the Mexico game (WC 2002) came and bit them in the a.ss today.

First off G-L said that it did not matter who came first in the group as facing Holland or Germany was the same as seeing the Czechs. Forgot to mention that Latvia still has a chance to go through as I write. Right, the Danes were not interested in this possiblity and threw the win.

I went back and watched the last 30 minutes, from a bit before the last Danish goal. The Danes dominated the ball and had the better chances. After their goal they almost immediately after had a close shot parried by the keeper, the left back did a long run and finished with a shot that went over, the left wing turned in on his right foot twice, one shot went over and the other was well-saved by the keeper. The Danes had the ball and passed better. They had more corners, at least two to maybe none (or one?). In the entire period there was only the one dangerous shot on goal by Ibrahimovich and a Larsson shot that went just wide. Conclusion up to minute 88: the Danes were only playing to extend their lead and never fell back to defend, never only played ball control without going forwards.

If you were a Swede you'd be suspicious of a fix between the Danes and Italy for those 28 minutes; after all, what did the Danes need to score more for? Probably Tomassen arranged some Italian prize money for them? A clear sign of Danish-Italian collusion (trying to be ironical).

As for the Swedish goal, the winger made a good play and he sent a ball across that was not on goal when the keeper was covering the post. If he had really wanted to let one in (an argument that only people who know zilch about this game could make anyways) he would have let the cross go by into the middle where someone could have had a heading chance at it, easy, just stay on the line. He fumbled it in a way I have seen a thousand times, extending out and dropping it when stretched out, with his own player coming back on to him. Swedes pick up rebound and score.

By the time the celebrations were over it was already into extra time. Two phases in those 2-3 minutes. The Danes holding and Swedes pressing giving Danish throw-ins up the right line (there was no argument about a throw in after the Swedish goal as said above, that was before the goal when Ljunberg argued a foul in his own end near the line, have to blame him for wasting time when he side was still down?). And the Swedish back line not pressured by Danish strikers and moving it back to kill time for a total of between 30 and 45 seconds; I counted it. That was the only time in the whole game the two teams were not playing to beat the other. And some folks want to compare that to Germany-Austria's 90 minutes of shame? Pathetic.

Also entirely untrue that they congratulated each other afterwards. All I saw was one player touch another as they walked past each other, and then Larsson trade shirts with a rival. Nothing more.

[Grizzly]

One of the biggest problems in Italian soccer is that whenever they lose they blame it on some conspiracy instead of their own inept play. When Germany performed poorly in Euro 2000 they started working on their programs to improve their team and despite the success in the last WC are still working because they realize there was some luck involved and the German team is still not at the level it once was. The Italians on the other hand still consider themselves a world dominating side despite the last four years of results that currently place them as a mediocre European team. One poor tournament result can be put down to the law of chance but two in a row is showing a tendency. They have failed to get out of the first round in this year's EURO despite being in a group with rather mediocre teams and barely got out of the first round of the last WC despite being in an easy group. This arrogance is one of the reasons why little is done to fix the problems in their soccer programs and why Italian soccer fans are generally disliked. Even when there are obviously poor referring decisions such as in the last WC noone asks why the Italians played so poorly in the game against very mediocre opposition and allowed a game that they should have won by at least 3 goals to be decided on a controversial call. And a team that only manages to beat Ecuador should have been happy to get to the second round let alone complain about some conspiracy to rob them of their rightful place at the top of the soccer pyramid. Some of the arrogance of Italian and to a lesser extent Spanish and English fans is also due to the strength of their leagues and the ignoring of the fact that half of the top players are foreigners. Nor is success at the club level relevent to the national team. The Italians would probably do well to hire a top foreign coach who is outside all of the Italian selection and club politics and who will put the prima donna players in their place or not call them if necessary. I can't imagine the Italians hiring a German but Trap's successor at Bayern, Hitzfeld, would be an excellent choice for them.

[nedved9]

The Italians can whine all they want to about a possible fix.

but at the same time the Italians only have themselves to blame. With all that talent they have they should have won that group no problem. Sure they had thier misses especially Del piero, and Vieri, but that happens. every once and a while.

Italy blew there tournamemt on Friday against Sweden, by just sitting on that lead. then having Ibramovic score that fluky goal.

I think in there has to be a huge change in attitude in Italy. I do not mean a change in coach, but a change in tacticts.

When Italy won the WC82, they did by attacking and playing wonderfull Football. In my opinion The Italians should have won WC90,

Euro 2000, and even WC94, If they did not have to play so god damn

defensive and conservative.

The future is bright, with players like Cassano, Gilardino of Parma, De Rossi of Roma. Italy will be Back.

[DJT]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

In the second instance the tackle seemed to me to arrive a bit early and the Italian then ran over his outstretched legs which he could have avoided.

I've watched it over and over again on tape and that's just not what happened. The tackle was actually late, not early, as Cassano had already tipped the ball away from the defender.

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

I don't think there is any way to eliminate such scenarios in tournaments so every team has to play 100% in each game and control their own destiny.

The only way is to make the entire tournament knockout-based (no group matches). From a sporting point of view I would be happy with this, though obviously it is bad from virtually every other point of view.

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

In all honesty this was a group Italy should have won hands down. I am sure Germany or Holland would have loved to be in this group.

You have been very harsh towards Sweden and Denmark. They are not "mediocre" teams as you say elsewhere. They are good teams, Sweden probably more than good. I don't think Germany would have had an easy time in this group when they couldn't even beat Latvia.

quote:Originally posted by argh1

Gosh, and I was upset at the 5' of added time in the Italy- Bulgaria game . Italy needed 3'+ to score the go ahead goal. The ref did Italy a huge favour with so much stoppage time.

There were many injuries in the second half (which, incidentally, really disrupted the flow of the game). I think 5 minutes were probably not even enough.

quote:Originally posted by Gian-luca

It also bothers me that when Italy & Mexico passed the ball around in the same fashion in injury time in the 2002 World Cup knowing that a 1-1 draw saw them both through, their actions were derided and criticized harshly and probably quite rightly. But Sweden & Denmark do it and many people are saying it is okay. Can we at least avoid total, obvious hypocrisy?

I agree. The commentator in 2002 (John Helm?) made it very clear how disgusted he was, while on Tuesday the commentator (granted, a different one) said something like "I can't say I really blame them". I also recall quite a few complaints from Voyageurs in 2002, but now all except the Italians are defending Sweden and Denmark. Though I do think it really is wrong for all of these teams to do what they did at the end of those matches, I do understand where they are coming from and harbour no ill feelings towards them for that (and in no way do I think that it is a sign of fixing). I just don't like the hypocrisy (which I find to be fairly common, but I guess that's what happens when you are dealing with fans, who by definition are biased).

I do wonder, though, what would have happened had they reached 2-2 with, say, 15 minutes remaining.

The sentiment that Italy "have only themselves to blame" seems to be as common as the conspiracy theories. I stand somewhere in the middle. I don't believe that there was any fixing, but I also don't believe that it was all Italy's fault. I believe that they have also had a fair amount of hard luck (going back to the last WC as well).

No, I am not saying that Italy played well. Yes, Italy need to fix some things (but, unlike what some people think, Italians do know this (fans and media, anyway), and in fact knew this a long time ago before non-Italians started paying attention --- don't let the complaints you hear now fool you, Italians are just passionate people that often talk without thinking ).

But there are other teams here who haven't exactly played up to standard, either, and yet are going to the QF. France is one of them. If Beckham, Gerrard and Tudor hadn't screwed up so badly, where would France be today?

Ah well. I'll pull for the Swedes in the QF, but with the Czechs as my second choice in this tournament it's bye bye Danmark!

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

First off G-L said that it did not matter who came first in the group as facing Holland or Germany was the same as seeing the Czechs. Forgot to mention that Latvia still has a chance to go through as I write. Right, the Danes were not interested in this possiblity and threw the win.

I don't really want to keep going on & on in this thread since the main point of contention, the possible collusion, couldn't be proved either way if our lives depended upon it (think about it folks, for a lie to work it has to be shrouded in truth) but I will just clarify that I didn't forget to mention Lativa at all - I left them out on purpose as I didn't think they had any realistic chance of going through. And I might just add, as someone who apparently doesn't know anything about the game of soccer, that I was right about that. If collusion happened it happened prior to match, not when the Danes had a 2-1 lead - not even Buffon is suggesting that the Danes & Swedes had a secret huddle in between the 2nd Danish & Swedish goals.

[mattbin]

quote:Originally posted by DJT

I've watched it over and over again on tape and that's just not what happened. The tackle was actually late, not early, as Cassano had already tipped the ball away from the defender.

I absolutely agree. I heard both sides of the story before seeing the play, and I was skeptical about the closeness of the call -- Italy fans _do_ tend to hold the referees to, let's say, a very high standard. (Maybe they're too used to Collina!)

But having seen the play a few times, there's no question at all that that penalty should have been called. It was not a savage attack or worth a card or anything. But it was definitely a penalty. For what it's worth.

Granted, if Italy really wanted to advance, they could have, you know, beaten Denmark or Sweden... or scored a couple of more goals... just sayin'... [}]

Allez les Rouges,

M@

[matthew]

I don't particularly care either way, but it didn't look like a fix to me. I've seen a lot of that 82 game and this looked far more competitive.

I do find it funny that the Swedes knocked the ball around the back to kill the clock to put the Italians out two years after the Italians did the same thing. Did the Italians and Mexicans rig the last game in Japan? Late equalizer, neither team pushing for a winner in a tied game? Result that benefits both teams? Having seen that game I don't think so for a second, but to me the arguments make about equal sense.

To me the bottom line is that the Italians couldn't beat Denmark or Sweden and they couldn't beat Bulgaria as emphatically as the other two. I don't think the fix was in, but bottom line I thought over three games Sweden and Denmark were the better teams. Which surprised me because I had high hopes for the Italians.

cheers,

matthew

[DarnCherry]

There was no fix going on.